hamon wrote: »

the best way to achieve this is by minimizing the power difference of the tryhards against the multitudes of normal players.

There are entire genres of games that do this. Progression MMO's, however, are the exact opposite. The power gaps are the progression. This is a progression MMO with a particularly long leveling- and power-curve. It's not to everyone's taste, but some people really like this style.

You can still catch up (CP's have tremendously diminished returns, and most builds get their biggest power boost at 90 total). You can't catch up in two weeks, however. This is the sort of game that requires much more time investment than that.

If you just want to fight on a relatively equal footing, and you want to be able to do that quite soon, there are products that suit your needs. Why not play one?

Snit wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

the best way to achieve this is by minimizing the power difference of the tryhards against the multitudes of normal players.

There are entire genres of games that do this. Progression MMO's, however, are the exact opposite. The power gaps are the progression. This is a progression MMO with a particularly long leveling- and power-curve. It's not to everyone's taste, but some people really like this style.

You can still catch up (CP's have tremendously diminished returns, and most builds get their biggest power boost at 90 total). You can't catch up in two weeks, however. This is the sort of game that requires much more time investment than that.

If you just want to fight on a relatively equal footing, and you want to be able to do that quite soon, there are products that suit your needs. Why not play one?

i do , i play pvp in games where its less carebear and doesnt coddle the unemployed or other types of people who seem to have unhealthy amounts of time in huge power differentials to enable them to fool themselves into thinking the reason they dominate is actually all about their skill.

they are quite fun. why not try one ?

and you say progression MMO's are all about these power differentials? well some of them get that horizontal progression is actually a way to provide progression that isnt just a system to reward whoever can devote most time to the game by making them more and more powerfull.

take EQ2 for example it had as much vertical progression as you could eat , but completely changed skills in pvp to minimize the power differential so pvp was more even a contest and kept folk happy, this also had the added advantage of not having to mess up pve when trying to keep pvp balanced.

but in the end the one inescapable fact of MMO's is that the unemployed man will ALWAYS be king cos TIME is the only real currency in MMO land. even the worst player given masses of time will end up winning cos he ends up with enough of a power differential to hide any lack of skill.

and i agree some people really like that style.

Cernow wrote: »

I played at launch but never got my main to endgame before taking a break. I returned just before the game went unlimited and made the huge mistake of rapidly taking my main to VR1. I should have done my research. The PVE game at veteran level is a truly horrible grind and veteran PvP is a totally unbalanced mess.

So my main is now just a vehicle for slowly accumulating some CPs. Most of my play time now is spent on an alt who is having a total blast in Blackwater Blade. Non veteran Cyrodiil is a lot of fun and feels like how PvP was originally intended. Are there things that need balancing, fixing and adjusting even in non veteran? Sure. But it's vastly more fun than the unbalanced mess that is veteran Cyrodiil.

This always seems to happen in MMOs because of power creep. Endgame PvP turns into a gulf between the minority who have the time (or used exploits) to grind out powerful gear / points and everyone else. Hence the need for some kind of caps, bolsters or adjustments to bring everyone closer to a median where all can have some fun.

The trouble is, if anyone asks for the playing field to be levelled a bit, a highly vocal minority start screaming about "entitlement" and "filthy casuals". Ironically it's they that are the entitled ones as they feel that time invested should give them a massive advantage over everyone else. If they were true PvP'ers they would prefer a game system that places skills, tactics and knowledge above gear and grind.

Bottom line is, if you want a fun PvP experience for all concerned then you need a reasonable amount of parity between players. Yes some players invest more time into their builds, gear and skills than others and they deserve an edge. No disputing that. But they don't deserve to become superheroes, it degrades the game into a farce.

yep i made a virtually identical statment as yours on the last page... sums it up , and this isn't limited to ESO , its the pitfalls of MMO's who cant see past a rather outdated methodology of massive grinds and power creep.

they reward the few (those with most free time) and marginalize the many. and ultimately hasten their own demise.

I would just give up and start over on console with everyone else but then veterans can transfer their characters to console too so they would be far ahead of everyone else there too so it would be the same problems as I am having now on PC. it's a lose - lose situation.

Bring back FCs.

ZOS doesn't care.

manny254 wrote: »

TheGOHgamer wrote: »

Views are mixed but it seems not everyone is enjoying The "Equestrian Scrolls Online" (Trademarked, lol)

In any case, PVP is no fun for a low level veteran. After they have you grind to 50 / VR1, (which was fun,) the game is over, or so you think because you defeated Molag Bal and saved the world. You now want to go to do some PVP and Veteran PVE content, but oh wait you can't because your stats aren't good enough and you get one shotted in PVE Dungeons by bosses that do 19 to 28K damage.

So they say, well you completed the game and want to have fun in Dungeons and PVP; oh well you can't better grind some more quests in Cadwell's silver and gold, lol. I don't know about you but 1 to 50 was enough questing for me and I got enough of the lore and story to last me a lifetime. Why should I do it again and again? I am tired, i can't do any more quest grinding. I have seriously had enough. I love this game but OMG I can't take any more quests just so I can do PVP.

So basically end game is off limits to me and other low level veteran players.

I will be uploading a video on it today where I basically got one-shotted off my horse in Cyrodiil and died, lol. WTH! haha

Not sure I would like PVP at end game anyway because right now all it is is a massive zerg fest and a game of who will get focused down first. It honestly requires no skill and there is no real competition or sense of accomplishment since you are effectively fighting 100 people at once and they are doing the same so does it really matter what you do? Did any of your actions contribute in the slightest and if it did, how do you know?

Anyway, I can't grind VR levels anymore so it's time for me to back to Cyrodiil, CyroLAG, CyrodiiLag and get one-shotted and then respawn miles away and play Equestrian Scrolls Online to get back to where I was only to be one-shotted again and play some more Equestrian Scrolls Online only to get back to the fight which is now over because I spent most of my time riding a horse, lol. FUN!

https://youtu.be/d0SS5dCpHOI

I watched most of your video, and I think you need to slow down. For one the gear you where wearing was broken, and some of it was only lvl 32. Second you admitted that you just used your pve skills. Yes if I am wearing min maxed gear and carefully selected skills I should destroy you. Instead of crying woe is me improve yourself. You do not need the best gear possible, but you should have something decent.

Also you need to calm down with the hyperbole. You where not fighting 100 people. Solo players and small groups can be effective, but you have to learn how to play. When you run head on into the enemy death should not be a surprise. Oh yeah btw in arenas you would do even worse.

i have to agree, while i agree with the op in his original thread, the video he posts doesn't highlight it , he looks as tho hes going out his way to support his point by making it as difficult as possible...

which is unnecessary imo, almost everyone accepts the power differential from a fresh v1 to a v14 with the best sets and AW10 etc is just to severe.

Already before and during PTS and in the first days of update 6, there were many threads and posts about this matter (like the removal of AoE caps generating more issues than benefits).

I agree with what stated by the OP ( @AbraXuSeXile ) in this topic that was closed (to gather every feedback in another unique topic).

That issue still stands.
Champion system is good and interesting PvE wise but in PvP this really long progression should be addressed, especially thinking to new and returning players.
A CP cap in the campaigns, maybe seasonal, or greater diminishing returns or a system to catch up should be added.
This doesn't mean be at the same level of committed players but be at least competitive.
Even with a VR14 and more than 200 CPs, I prefer a competitive PvP and I can't blame my guildies who reactivated with TESO BtP and because of CPs in AvA, performances in Cyrodiil, gameplay and lack of new PvE contents already quit again.

Ezareth wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Well a lot of us called it when the Champion System was announced, that the gap between future new players and old-timers will be too high to bridge. Thus frustrating the new players hugely.

Take a new inexperienced player with a v1 character, 0 CPs and some crafted sets. Now put him against an experienced player with legendary end-game sets, 300 CPs and all the Undaunted and Alliance War passives and skills.

The gap is not just big, it's huge and it's only going to increase. Hence why I thought that 1.5 did need tweaks but it was closer to balance compare to what we have now.

Plus while PvP was laggy in 1.5 it was somehow better than it is now, surprisingly. There are more zergs and more lag making it a torture to play at primetime.

That's what makes me the most sad. Clearly a lot of honest and well-meant effort was put into 1.6, but it's also pretty clear that it was incredibly rushed in order to meet a certain deadline.

They are planning on putting in some CP "Gap closers" to adjust this over time to allow newer players a chance to "Catch up". Like have the first 400 champion points only take 100K exp instead of 400K etc.

I agree with @Lava_Croft .
@Ezareth : what you wrote, was it said during an ESO live or written in forum? I missed it, it would be a great news.

@hamon about Warhammer Online (that imho was the best PvP in the last 10 years), I recall that the situation at lvl 40 was not so terrible and with a RR around 50 it was still possible to compete with a RR 80 character.
Surely there were more active abilities and players' skills were more important than in TESO but the long road to increase in the renown was better planned, because the power gap was not so huge, just some skills and gear tied to the specific renown ranks.
Lower tiers were a good option, as you wrote, but also last tier was not bad at all.
It was infact from the Skaven patch and the increase to RR 100 that Warhammer Online started to fall definitively. One year after release surely there were a lot less players but there were still active servers and many players returned to it after the negative release.
Before Skaven patch I recall a good situation, not after.
Unfortunately, as I discussed with some guildies and ex WAR players, I see some analogies between Skaven patch and update 6.

Cody wrote: »

The last time vet campaigns were truly any fun was wabbajack... that's how long ago it was.

I totally agree with you, as does probably most of our guild... Wabbajack EU here though.


It is indeed quite crazy that the most fun place in PvP right now is a campaign that i "not really" the game, since stats are on battle level and that makes it an artifical environment.

Given that now all 5 campaigns are locked on all populations in Europe at prime time, it's seriously time to open up new campaigns (15 or 20 days, not less or it will be emperor farming) to enable people who want to play away from the lag and the zergs to have some fun with their veteran characters.

EDIT : add:

Zargorius wrote: »

Soft.
Caps.

What if soft caps somewhat made it worse ? With soft caps, players with many CP would put them all around the place, reaching soft caps easily, instead of dumping them all in some specific things to reach high scores. And wouldn't that make them even strogner somehow ?

Helluin wrote: »

@hamon about Warhammer Online (that imho was the best PvP in the last 10 years), I recall that the situation at lvl 40 was not so terrible and with a RR around 50 it was still possible to compete with a RR 80 character.
Surely there were more active abilities and players' skills were more important than in TESO but the long road to increase in the renown was better planned, because the power gap was not so huge, just some skills and gear tied to the specific renown ranks.
Lower tiers were a good option, as you wrote, but also last tier was not bad at all.
It was infact from the Skaven patch and the increase to RR 100 that Warhammer Online started to fall definitively. One year after release surely there were a lot less players but there were still active servers and many players returned to it after the negative release.
Before Skaven patch I recall a good situation, not after.
Unfortunately, as I discussed with some guildies and ex WAR players, I see some analogies between Skaven patch and update 6.

well I stopped playing it long before you i guess. i only played from beta till maybe 6 months after release.. at that point it was generally accepted that the best fun was in tiers 1 and 2. that isnt to say tiers 3 and 4 wern't fun as well (more fun and more competative than ESO.) but as i left more and more folk were re-rolling just to get back to the lower tiers as it was more fun.

i think the cause of the fun disparity in WAR wasn't so much a raw power differential as much as it was the amount of CC unlocked in higher tiers and class balance issues afaik, i know early on everyone on the other side seemed to think bright wizards were crazy powerfull at max rank, i played one myself so couldnt objectively comment on how OP they were. (they were fun tho )

it was a lot of fun. not sure how it got changed afterwards, I just used it as an example to mirror what is happening here, as even some of the tryhards are coming out and saying the best pvp is in BB in ESO. I can totally understand that cos some of the tryhards actually embrace a more competative arena.

i'm sure a lot more folk would shun vet pvp if they could get cp from playing in BB, even if they couldn't use the cp on non vet characters , being able to gather it in BB would be enough for many to just keep rolling alts and pvp there ,, if that was to become the thing many would choose to do it would be irrefutable evidence that the power gap in vet pvp was utter failure.

Xsorus wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

Helluin wrote: »

@hamon about Warhammer Online (that imho was the best PvP in the last 10 years), I recall that the situation at lvl 40 was not so terrible and with a RR around 50 it was still possible to compete with a RR 80 character.
Surely there were more active abilities and players' skills were more important than in TESO but the long road to increase in the renown was better planned, because the power gap was not so huge, just some skills and gear tied to the specific renown ranks.
Lower tiers were a good option, as you wrote, but also last tier was not bad at all.
It was infact from the Skaven patch and the increase to RR 100 that Warhammer Online started to fall definitively. One year after release surely there were a lot less players but there were still active servers and many players returned to it after the negative release.
Before Skaven patch I recall a good situation, not after.
Unfortunately, as I discussed with some guildies and ex WAR players, I see some analogies between Skaven patch and update 6.

well I stopped playing it long before you i guess. i only played from beta till maybe 6 months after release.. at that point it was generally accepted that the best fun was in tiers 1 and 2. that isnt to say tiers 3 and 4 wern't fun as well (more fun and more competative than ESO.) but as i left more and more folk were re-rolling just to get back to the lower tiers as it was more fun.

i think the cause of the fun disparity in WAR wasn't so much a raw power differential as much as it was the amount of CC unlocked in higher tiers and class balance issues afaik, i know early on everyone on the other side seemed to think bright wizards were crazy powerfull at max rank, i played one myself so couldnt objectively comment on how OP they were. (they were fun tho )

it was a lot of fun. not sure how it got changed afterwards, I just used it as an example to mirror what is happening here, as even some of the tryhards are coming out and saying the best pvp is in BB in ESO. I can totally understand that cos some of the tryhards actually embrace a more competative arena.

i'm sure a lot more folk would shun vet pvp if they could get cp from playing in BB, even if they couldn't use the cp on non vet characters , being able to gather it in BB would be enough for many to just keep rolling alts and pvp there ,, if that was to become the thing many would choose to do it would be irrefutable evidence that the power gap in vet pvp was utter failure.

Tier 1-3 seemed fine because a single person could defend a keep with Oil. Tier 4 that wasn't possible...and most of the keeps just got swapped early on (It wasn't till later this changed) Other then that there wasn't a huge difference.

As for RR50 vs RR80, the reason that was possible was because there wasn't a vast difference between those two in terms of stats..Your main stat difference came from Gear, and at the start an RR80 set wasn't necessarily better for your class vs an RR5 set

for example..Invader gear on my Shadow Warrior and Knight of the Blazing Sun was better then the Warlord Set even though it was higher tier.

ye i seem to remember that being the case. I see from your sig you clearly played alot of GW2 as well, again i seem to remember it never suffered as much as eso in terms of power differentials. I remember levelling one toon almost exclusively in pvp and never really felt as gimped as a vet 1 would in eso.

it was blobbing that was the curse of Gw2 due to aoe caps , but i dont remember there being systems in place that actively created huge power disparity. where as in ESO you have AW10 and all the bonuses from that , vet power from v1-v14 and now CP being added to even more skew power to those with the huge amounts of time to pour into one character. not to factor in the fact that most folk will have nothing better than blue crafted sets till they reach vet 14. certainly not in the same ball park as purple or gold archmage , morag tong, ravager etc or undaunted helm/'shoulders.

thats not even mentioning emperor bonus's and nirnhoned.. then factor in pot addiction, sure pots are available to all, but once more you either need to find yourself in the position of having enough time to gather all the stuff for your constant potion use, or have enough money to buy them. so unless you been playing a long time and dont need to still be looking at spending maybe 100-200k gold on kitting out your toon, swigging pots every second in cyrodiil won't be viable.

when you factor in all these power differentials is it any wonder ESO vet cyrodiil is so terrible?

Francescolg wrote: »

I agree that they messed up 1.6 by cutting health and this is inexcusable.
I disagree that Vr 1-12 takes too long, as the Cadwell's silver Q alone is all you need. Afterwards, it is a question of skill to find the right farming spots and anyone can do Vr 1-14 in a few days!
I will not answer any questions, sorry :-/

riiiight......

"a few days" lol.

Cody wrote: »

Francescolg wrote: »

I agree that they messed up 1.6 by cutting health and this is inexcusable.
I disagree that Vr 1-12 takes too long, as the Cadwell's silver Q alone is all you need. Afterwards, it is a question of skill to find the right farming spots and anyone can do Vr 1-14 in a few days!
I will not answer any questions, sorry :-/

riiiight......

"a few days" lol.

he's probably right it is a few days.... as in 72 hours roughly of non stop play. but for folk with functioning real lifes, that can translate to maybe 3-6 weeks of playing.

Wouldnt be so bad if pc to console ports werent running around with 2000 cp points. Poor decision letting PC gamers transfer. A fresh start on console and they fudged it up.

all of this is reason why seige should be noticeably useful against any kind of group...

its a equal opportunity option for new players who those who are alone... but not as helpful for large groups that need to focus on mobility save when breaking down a wall.