What in Oblivion has happened to Cyrodiil?!

Agrippa_Invisus · May 2015

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Game is poorly balanced.

Funny you say that, since they did just about everything you asked for concerning armor, block, nerfing caster DKs tanks, making ranged ranged and melee melee. I guess you have to be careful what you wish for.

I never asked for soft caps to be removed.

I never asked for Nirnhoned to work as it does.

I never asked for HP totals to not scale in the same way as other resource pools.

It's the lack of softcaps on damage stacking, the lack of softcaps on regent, and the poor scaling of HP pools that lead to very, very squishy players who die in moments -- regardless of type of armor -- to physical damage types. The only defenses that are truly effective are the dodge roll spammers (due to the huge resource regen rates) or the shield stackers.

That is a crap salad of ZOS's own making.

AhPook_Is_Here · May 2015

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Game is poorly balanced.

Funny you say that, since they did just about everything you asked for concerning armor, block, nerfing caster DKs tanks, making ranged ranged and melee melee. I guess you have to be careful what you wish for.

I never asked for soft caps to be removed.

I never asked for Nirnhoned to work as it does.

I never asked for HP totals to not scale in the same way as other resource pools.

It's the lack of softcaps on damage stacking, the lack of softcaps on regent, and the poor scaling of HP pools that lead to very, very squishy players who die in moments -- regardless of type of armor -- to physical damage types. The only defenses that are truly effective are the dodge roll spammers (due to the huge resource regen rates) or the shield stackers.

That is a crap salad of ZOS's own making.

Ya, I don't know about all that other stuff, because I don't think anybody asked for any of that, at least not that I can recall from my limited time reading the forums. However the game has become what you'd expect from the absence of any pushing or defensive roles, two blobs of ranged v.s. ranged, and I'm not at all interested in that.

Agrippa_Invisus · May 2015

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Game is poorly balanced.

Funny you say that, since they did just about everything you asked for concerning armor, block, nerfing caster DKs tanks, making ranged ranged and melee melee. I guess you have to be careful what you wish for.

I never asked for soft caps to be removed.

I never asked for Nirnhoned to work as it does.

I never asked for HP totals to not scale in the same way as other resource pools.

It's the lack of softcaps on damage stacking, the lack of softcaps on regent, and the poor scaling of HP pools that lead to very, very squishy players who die in moments -- regardless of type of armor -- to physical damage types. The only defenses that are truly effective are the dodge roll spammers (due to the huge resource regen rates) or the shield stackers.

That is a crap salad of ZOS's own making.

Ya, I don't know about all that other stuff, because I don't think anybody asked for any of that, at least not that I can recall from my limited time reading the forums. However the game has become what you'd expect from the absence of any pushing or defensive roles, two blobs of ranged v.s. ranged, and I'm not at all interested in that.

I was actually really happy with 1.6. Right at the start. I liked the that DK LA tank was dead (it needed to die, truly), I liked that at first Heavy Armor had a place, I liked that Stamina builds were competing. PVP participation was way up. And so on.

Then it started getting figured out and meta started to solidify and it became really obvious the mistakes that ZOS had made.

The zerg is all powerful now as all their zerg busting ideas failed. Anyone who wants to stack damage bonuses and effects can global people in a 1v1 situation (which is un-freaking-acceptable). And if you want to defend yourself against anything, you crutch hard on a busted regen system and spam.

Potenza · May 2015

because it is now a siege fest.

themdogesbite · May 2015

I wonder how zenimax managed to *** it up this bad, they really had something nice going at the start.. at this rate i wont have anyone left to play with in two weeks..

kkravaritieb17_ESO · May 2015

PvP is literally dead you cant do anything without getting lag or getting zerged down by 50+ people.

kkravaritieb17_ESO · May 2015

Congratz to ZoS for their self-destructive tendencies in PvP and generally in the game.

Dreyloch · May 2015

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Game is poorly balanced.

Population disparity issues on every single server.

Lag is godawful bad.

And everyone knows it's going to be months before anything's done due to the code mostly being locked for console release.

1.6/2.0 is an utter, complete failure for the PVP community.

Exacty this^^ But more over, I honestly think ZoS didn't want PvP to be such a large portion of this game. They won't admit that of course, but it really seems evident that it was a slightly more thought-out "after thought" than most other MMO's like Rift. (where the lead dev said PvP will always take a back seat to the PvE Hardcore guilds)

For me, that was fine in that game because the PvE raiding was pretty cool.(it's terribad in this one btw) Then I started on the PvP and the game eventually went F2P with a horrendous RnG cash shop. You want that nice new mount? Need to buy like 123495871248714578 boxes and maybe you'll get one. That was it for me.

This game has become so fustrating with the PvP I've also said goodbye for now. Until ZoS fixes a huge amount of PvP I'll be playing another free game called Path of Exile. It has PvP, but I'm more in it for the "Diablo like" PvE. Coming back to it after a year I found myself totally enjoying it again and can't wait to play. If anyone's played it back then it's worth another look and the have chapter 4 in beta right now.

OtarTheMad · May 2015

If they don't do something VERY SOON... a lot more people are going to walk away from PVP. I, for some odd reason, am one of the AD trying to remake Haderus into a competitive campaign but honestly it is BEYOND frustrating at this point.

Armitas · May 2015

OtarTheMad wrote: »

If they don't do something VERY SOON... a lot more people are going to walk away from PVP.

Already seeing it happen. I have already retreated back to leveling my alts at my own pace, playing on black water blade, and playing skyrim. With most of my time in PvP spent yelling at the game, complaining in TS or listening to the copious amounts of complaints from other player I pretty much have to pull out of PvP some or it will drive me from the game entirely.

Minnesinger · May 2015

I can answer what didn´t happen. I made a mistake off trying to solo run during the peak hour in Chill. The lag hit me in several ways. Can´t bother to describe everything but my level of sadism is too low to enjoy of. I change Chill big fights for small scale battles in any server. Such waste of time. The game took a wrong turn by promising big scale battles with hundreds of people. Hope they revert their decison in favour of small scale battles and less lag.

tinythinker · May 2015

Gizit wrote: »

I know everyone knocks on the large organized groups and says that playing with a small 10 man is much better due to the "No lag" scenario.

However that is what brought me to this game anyways. I started with The Crimson Order on launch and we had a ball- back then on SkullCrusher !

...

I know a lot of you players just call the "Zergs" mindless groups of numbers but we are actually decent players with careers that like to group up and have an ARMY in a WAR GAME. as it were intended not this 10 man vs 10 man bull crap most of you are touting about. Put that in arenas not cryodiil - why not fix the game so large numbers vs large numbers - like advertised.

My take is that there are two things people sometimes conflate: organized large scale combat and zerging.

How I see those two things:

Large scale combat may be what you are talking about, and true, the server craps out when players try this. Maybe because of increased server-side checks to reduce exploiting, maybe because of too many complex calculations, maybe because of server coding bugs, etc. No one seems to know (or they aren't telling).

Zerging is an amplified "pain train" kind of swarming en masse, in which players are always tight on the leader in a giant blob and swarm over everything using AoE. It is a particular type of organized large scale combat, so everything else in large scale battles would by definition be the "non-zerg" form. In zergs there is little need for coordination or skill other than follow the leader and having someone in voice chat calling for ultimates at certain times. Otherwise just spam heals and AoE damage (impulse last summer, whirlwind now). A group of ~10-20 people doing this kind of swarm can be annoying/challenging but I wouldn't call it a zerg. When the numbers head toward 35-50+, we are looking at the process of transformation into a ("mindless") zerg.

A couple of the major issues people have associated with zerging: 1) it amplifies the current server problems with large scale combat and 2) the anti-zerging tools ZOS replaced "ground oil" with are either not effective or can be used just as/even more effectively by the zerg versus smaller groups of opponents.

I personally have no problem with large scale combat, as it can be very fun, but massive zerg v massive zerg in a lagfest? No so much. Not unless/until the the lag improves and only if the zergs split apart into smaller packets of players in open field combat after meeting each other. Especially given the current situation with miniscule TTK and the extreme variation in ability to deal/resist damage among different classes/builds.

Manoekin · May 2015

tinythinker wrote: »

Gizit wrote: »

I know everyone knocks on the large organized groups and says that playing with a small 10 man is much better due to the "No lag" scenario.

However that is what brought me to this game anyways. I started with The Crimson Order on launch and we had a ball- back then on SkullCrusher !

...

I know a lot of you players just call the "Zergs" mindless groups of numbers but we are actually decent players with careers that like to group up and have an ARMY in a WAR GAME. as it were intended not this 10 man vs 10 man bull crap most of you are touting about. Put that in arenas not cryodiil - why not fix the game so large numbers vs large numbers - like advertised.

My take is that there are two things people sometimes conflate: organized large scale combat and zerging.

How I see those two things:

Large scale combat may be what you are talking about, and true, the server craps out when players try this. Maybe because of increased server-side checks to reduce exploiting, maybe because of too many complex calculations, maybe because of server coding bugs, etc. No one seems to know (or they aren't telling).

Zerging is an amplified "pain train" kind of swarming en masse, in which players are always tight on the leader in a giant blob and swarm over everything using AoE. It is a particular type of organized large scale combat, so everything else in large scale battles would by definition be the "non-zerg" form. In zergs there is little need for coordination or skill other than follow the leader and having someone in voice chat calling for ultimates at certain times. Otherwise just spam heals and AoE damage (impulse last summer, whirlwind now). A group of ~10-20 people doing this kind of swarm can be annoying/challenging but I wouldn't call it a zerg. When the numbers head toward 25-50+, we are looking at the process of transformation into a ("mindless") zerg.

A couple of the major issues people have associated with zerging: 1) it amplifies the current server problems with large scale combat and 2) the anti-zerging tools ZOS replaced "ground oil" with are either not effective or can be used just as/even more effectively by the zerg versus smaller groups of opponents.

I personally have no problem with large scale combat, as it can be very fun, but massive zerg v massive zerg in a lagfest? No so much. Not unless/until the the lag improves and only if the zergs split apart into smaller packets of players in open field combat after meeting each other. Especially given the current situation with miniscule TTK and the extreme variation in ability to deal/resist damage among different classes/builds.

Being coordinated and relying more on player skill than overall numbers to win is zerging now? No one stacks 50 people on the same ground unless it's a flag.

There are two types of zergs in this game: the same group of 50 people mindlessly walking to their death between keeps over and over and over and over again until another 50 people come and they finally take it through sheer manpower, and EP who are honorary South-Ga's.

Dositheus · May 2015

I guess I'm the rather small minority. I'm fairly pleased in general with Cyro. I came back to ESO after leaving for a bit, life needed attention. After returning, I was very pleased to see Stamina was actually useful. I had to go Magika NB before I left, and it was nice to be able to make what I originally envisioned worked finally.

In 2.0 I have seen:
Sorcs are strong.
NB are strong (both stam/magika. Yes I know some will deny magika has any place now, but I've dueled a number of Magika NB who were damn strong and nearly unkillable. And watched others do just fine vs groups)
DKs are strong (Once again both magika and stam based. Stam based 2 hander ones have gibbed me in 1 rotation with WB and crit charge. Good stuff)
Templars are... tricky. I've fought both stam and magika ones... seen some excel at both, and some do terribly with both. I think they are doable right now definitely, but a bit harder to work than some of the other classes.

I've seen glass cannons do well, middle of the road (defence/offence balanced) be ok, and utterly unkillable DK tanks.

Massive resource regen has become somewhat "the norm". I know a lot of people are annoyed with it, frankly it doens't bother me much. I've seen people do well with just massive spellpower/weaponpower and a little regen, or do well with a shite ton of regen but less up front oomph. There are "FOTM" builds out there, but a lot of different builds have been viable from my experience dorking around. I think there is just a touch too much hysteria about the resource regen and cap removal.

Nirnhoned. Yeah, people are hating the Nirnhoned. And I can understand the sentiment. Although, I think both sides are a bit too... "religious" and "zealous" in their discourse here about it. Is it powerful? Yes, I don't think anyone can deny it is. It requires people to use crafted sets, which are not the ideal dps wise. It also is not easy to find or afford, since finding people who can craft it and gathering the materials takes time. It can also be countered by penetration based builds, which obviously not everyone wants to run. The thing is, far far far fewer people are running any Nirnhoned than the Nirn-haters are claiming. And Nirn is indeed far better than the Nirn-lovers are admitting. It is pretty much the best, although most expensive and hardest to get, of the traits. I'd love to see an anti-armor version. And call it good.

I am not even going to go into all the skills that people despise from every class. Each class has something (or a weapon ability that synergizes with a class, aka bow) that every other class seems to hate and want nerfed. Frankly? I think for the most part this is balanced ok. Yeah, flame me for it.. but every class can build a fast TTK build right now. I'd like to see some more thought put into fixing some morphs or abilities that are still meh for each class, but yeah.

To me, the only thing that I can't stand about Cyro right now, is the lag. I adjust and adapt to the other *** that people whine about. I know I can't beat everything, unless I change up my skills/gear setups. But everything... almost... can be overcome or matched. I'm tired of hearing "nerf this, nerf that, nerf nerf nerf" threads everywhere. And I mean th at for Sorcs, NB, DK, or God help us nerf Templar threads. (note, the last are somewhat rare, other than everyone despising RD). If people spent half as much time pvping in the game, as they do pvping on the forum, we'd all have Vigor and enough AP for whatever gear comes out in the next update.

tinythinker · May 2015

Manoekin wrote: »

Being coordinated and relying more on player skill than overall numbers to win is zerging now?

Eh? I explicitly distinguished between organized large scale combat and zerging. The range where "zerging" potentially begins in terms of numbers is up for grabs, but I placed it somewhere between 35-50*, and definitely over 50. But I didn't define zerging based strictly on having some suitably large number of players. I personally don't count staying tight on the crown and mashing the same button repeatedly as skilled play, but everyone has their own definitions. I don't expect everyone to agree with me.

Manoekin wrote: »

No one stacks 50 people on the same ground unless it's a flag.

Doesn't have to be 50. I gave a range wherein the transformation to zerg can occur, not an exact number. When I see 35-45 people swarm out of a stronghold in tight formation spamming AoE attacks, run over 5 players, and run back in, I call it zerging. When 40+ players of a different faction swarm out in the same type of formation and use the same simplistic tactics in order to take a resource, also zerging. Why people need or want to "zerg" for such things I cannot say.

My whole point was that some people want to call any large organized effort "zerging", but it isn't. Some people want to say that any group of any size that stays tight and spams AoE is a zerg, but it isn't. Some people want to say that natural times of stacking in combat (pouring through a beach, hopping on a flag at the end of a capture even when there was no "zerging" prior to that) is zerging. So when people say zerging is to blame for X, Y, Z, it can be confusing because some people really do mean large swarming groups using little skill and some just mean any form of large-scale combat.

Again, to me, zerging is when you have a huge number of players and little skill needed to win. Where a particular player draws the line on what a sufficiently larger number (again, I think definitely by the 40s/50s you can start to qualify) and what constitutes "skill" is subjective. If you are in a campaign with very low pop, you might be able to "zerg" in the higher 30s to mid-40s, but in medium to high pop campaigns I wouldn't personally call a zerg under 50 (again, numbers alone don't necessarily make a zerg).

*Earlier post had a typo that saud "25-50+", has been corrected.

AhPook_Is_Here · May 2015

tinythinker wrote: »

Gizit wrote: »

I know everyone knocks on the large organized groups and says that playing with a small 10 man is much better due to the "No lag" scenario.

However that is what brought me to this game anyways. I started with The Crimson Order on launch and we had a ball- back then on SkullCrusher !

...

I know a lot of you players just call the "Zergs" mindless groups of numbers but we are actually decent players with careers that like to group up and have an ARMY in a WAR GAME. as it were intended not this 10 man vs 10 man bull crap most of you are touting about. Put that in arenas not cryodiil - why not fix the game so large numbers vs large numbers - like advertised.

My take is that there are two things people sometimes conflate: organized large scale combat and zerging.

How I see those two things:

Large scale combat may be what you are talking about, and true, the server craps out when players try this. Maybe because of increased server-side checks to reduce exploiting, maybe because of too many complex calculations, maybe because of server coding bugs, etc. No one seems to know (or they aren't telling).

Zerging is an amplified "pain train" kind of swarming en masse, in which players are always tight on the leader in a giant blob and swarm over everything using AoE. It is a particular type of organized large scale combat, so everything else in large scale battles would by definition be the "non-zerg" form. In zergs there is little need for coordination or skill other than follow the leader and having someone in voice chat calling for ultimates at certain times. Otherwise just spam heals and AoE damage (impulse last summer, whirlwind now). A group of ~10-20 people doing this kind of swarm can be annoying/challenging but I wouldn't call it a zerg. When the numbers head toward 35-50+, we are looking at the process of transformation into a ("mindless") zerg.

A couple of the major issues people have associated with zerging: 1) it amplifies the current server problems with large scale combat and 2) the anti-zerging tools ZOS replaced "ground oil" with are either not effective or can be used just as/even more effectively by the zerg versus smaller groups of opponents.

I personally have no problem with large scale combat, as it can be very fun, but massive zerg v massive zerg in a lagfest? No so much. Not unless/until the the lag improves and only if the zergs split apart into smaller packets of players in open field combat after meeting each other. Especially given the current situation with miniscule TTK and the extreme variation in ability to deal/resist damage among different classes/builds.

Zerging is when a large group rolls over your group. Organized group play is when your large group rolls over another group.

tinythinker · May 2015

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Zerging is when a large group rolls over your group. Organized group play is when your large group rolls over another group.

Definitely how many people use the term.

AhPook_Is_Here · May 2015

tinythinker wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Zerging is when a large group rolls over your group. Organized group play is when your large group rolls over another group.

Definitely how many people use the term.

Perception and perspective forge the terms that are essentially synonymous, one coin, two sides. When two large groups meet, lag is caused by the opposing group not your group (2nd person). When one group is crushed the crushed group was zerged. The play-style is identical, sometimes it incorporates siege, sometimes timed burst dps, in the end the words are just rhetorical and have no material significance between each other.

The real problem isn't the syntax, but the broken boring game-play that the designers have put before us and left there as a finished product.

tinythinker · May 2015

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

The real problem isn't the syntax, but the broken boring game-play that the designers have put before us and left there as a finished product.

Agreed in principle, but the use of terminology that goes with mis(perception) can obscure the problematic mechanics and shift the focus of the discussion ("That other Alliance is a bunch of zerging poopy-heads

" ). In the end, players are responsible for choosing to "zerg", and ZOS is responsible for making that an easier/safer option for many players.

OtarTheMad · May 2015

Armitas wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

If they don't do something VERY SOON... a lot more people are going to walk away from PVP.

Already seeing it happen. I have already retreated back to leveling my alts at my own pace, playing on black water blade, and playing skyrim. With most of my time in PvP spent yelling at the game, complaining in TS or listening to the copious amounts of complaints from other player I pretty much have to pull out of PvP some or it will drive me from the game entirely.

Sad isn't it? I took two weeks off from work in order to just PVP, recruit and hopefully get Emp finally but AP farmers, overwhelming DC in my campaign of temporary choice (Haderus) and just typical PVP frustration have led me to just focus on the other real life crap I needed to get done in these two weeks. One week left on this vacation and I'll probably be in Blackwater Blade and/or leveling my VR 3 NB in PvE. (When I'm even playing this game anyway)

c0rp · May 2015

Vet PVP wont improve until after console launch. After console players level up, and then the same issues that plague PC plague console, ZOS will either fix what is broken or just cash out all together. Either way, that is gonna be at least a few months after console comes out.

The fact that nirnhoned has been allowed to continue this long, has pretty much caused me to not even log into the game for the past month.

Cody · May 2015

i do not know if i have the patience to wait until after console launch for PvP fixes. I cannot stand the PvE. I have already done most of it!:(

If PvP remains this broken for the next few months, I am gone. I have had it. everyone has their breaking point, and I have reached mine.

perhaps I will take a break and play something else. Maybe I will get Skyrim for the PC and play it for the next few months.

something.

mortuusbae · May 2015

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Game is poorly balanced.

Population disparity issues on every single server.

Lag is godawful bad.

And everyone knows it's going to be months before anything's done due to the code mostly being locked for console release.

1.6/2.0 is an utter, complete failure for the PVP community.

nailed it

OtarTheMad · May 2015

Cody wrote: »

i do not know if i have the patience to wait until after console launch for PvP fixes. I cannot stand the PvE. I have already done most of it!:(

If PvP remains this broken for the next few months, I am gone. I have had it. everyone has their breaking point, and I have reached mine.

perhaps I will take a break and play something else. Maybe I will get Skyrim for the PC and play it for the next few months.

something.

Hopefully you stick around man but I know how you feel. With that being said if you haven't played Skyrim on PC then you're COMPLETELY missing out on a completely different Skyrim versus console version. Just with mods alone you can do more quests, adventures, etc. So much fun.

Samadhi · May 2015

Goldie wrote: »

...
A few weeks after 1.6 we had great population in nearly all NA camps besides Azuras Star, now everything but Non-Vet seems dead.

Players advised ZOS to remove the AoE caps in order to reduce the number of calculations being constantly run through the server; ZOS was warned that AoE caps would result in groups bunching up into blobs to mitigate damage while spamming AoEs in a manner that would result in extreme instances of lag.
ZOS responded by making AoEs perform even more calculations against an increased number of players, in an effort to avoid removing AoE caps while paying lip service to the requests players made to remove it.

Players advised ZOS to put skills in place that do more damage if they hit more people.
ZOS responded by putting a skill in place that does the same amount of high damage regardless of how many people it hits, ensuring that the team with more people able to cast the skill still receives greater results from it.

Players advused ZOS to modify siege so that they were more powerful if they hit more players at a single time, encouraging people to spread out.
ZOS responded by making siege more powerful across the board, ensuring that people who were gathered closely together are better able to mitigate the effects and defeat the smaller enemy force with additional firepower.

Think the bigger issue is that at core nothing has happened to Cyrodiil. Players have identified issues, discussed those issues, and provided meaningful suggestions to make changes that fix those issues -- ZOS has demonstrated a reluctance to actually deal with any such issues, instead finding ways to implement changes that outwardly appear to address the issues while actually reinforcing them.
Bugs, glitches, exploits and imbalances get identified, documented, reported, and responded to with a sentiment of "in a few months."

Nothing has really happened to Cyrodiil since launch, and that is the problem.
There was a surge of returning players shortly after 1.6 who left the game due to performance issues and imbalances who received the pleasure of encountering a Cyrodiil that actually performs worse than it did in Spring 2014.
PvE players got to return to a polished experience with bug fixes and balance tweaks. PvP players got to return to a turd with some more dynamic lighting shining on it.

Zhoyzu · May 2015

I HATE this games pve, its a *** joke tbh. i am now more concerned with trying to gear for a trials than i spend in cyrodiil.

i might pick up the anthology and play through that, a quality pve experience. Starcraft2 can satiate my pvp needs so thats covered.

Ill be throwing in the towel here soon, the game makes me angry quicker and quicker each session.

Consoles will fail. They havent changed the fundaments of this game from one platform to the other, and in some cases have already willingly opted to make it worse. They'll be sorely mistaken if they think console players are gonna let ZO$ force feed them this pile of trash.

The way these people have handled... anything has been *** poor.

Lesspa · May 2015

Step one: Remove meteor. No one can deny the performance loss seen as soon as a meteor starts dropping. Its even worse when (2) large guilds decide to zergspam it @ keep fights.

*cough* "Red Council" *cough*

Xsorus · May 2015

They honestly just needed to do a rebalance patch after 1.6...doing a major rebalance patch like that then waiting while doing consoles was kind of silly..

Hopefully 1.7 will be a balance patch to fix some of the issues currently.

Some of the issues present right now with the giant 30 man zergballs have more to do with the fact that the people running them can't compete with smaller numbers..Like seriously...I've watched those same players run like 12 people and get trounced against like groups of like 6 and 8 people....So they've opted to keep increasing the number of people in their zerg till they feel safe.

Which is fine...That's what less skilled players should be doing..increasing their number till they have a chance.

The problem with it comes in the form of the Balling up and following around in a giant train. This has more to do with things like Barrier and Vigor being uncapped..Notice most of the trains are Stamina Based right now for that reason.....They should cap those two abilities like they do other heals.

Other things they can do is simply go back to having unpurgable Oil Catapults. Back when that did a 70% snare for like 10 seconds that you couldn't purge and wasn't stopped by Unretreating maneuvers zerg balls were actually getting trounced for a while....They would get pelted by that..and while they were still stacked, they were all moving incredibly slow..Meaning every other siege in the area would start hitting them and they'd die afterwards.

Satiar · May 2015

Rapid Maneuvers is really the main thing holding groups together. I don't think raids could function without it.

Something like that would cure zergball play, but it would also annihilate small group play of any kind. All you'd have to do is hit people with snares and that's that, they're either a sorc or they get run over. And you'd have nothing capable of actually breaking up a large pug zerg.

People complaining about Vigor don't know how raids work. Vigor is not a make or break, in any way. It's a pillow, a luxury. Raids still run on their Templars, or their dedicated healers. Vigor helps in the same way any splash healing helps, but take it or leave it, it's not going to change how groups function.

Group V Group combat is still amazingly fun in this game, though. Hitting, disengaging, circling, trying to get the enemy in a spot where you can annihilate the bulk of their force without losing your own... it's a lot of strategy and it's a blast.

Cody · May 2015

Satiar wrote: »

Rapid Maneuvers is really the main thing holding groups together. I don't think raids could function without it.

Something like that would cure zergball play, but it would also annihilate small group play of any kind. All you'd have to do is hit people with snares and that's that, they're either a sorc or they get run over. And you'd have nothing capable of actually breaking up a large pug zerg.

People complaining about Vigor don't know how raids work. Vigor is not a make or break, in any way. It's a pillow, a luxury. Raids still run on their Templars, or their dedicated healers. Vigor helps in the same way any splash healing helps, but take it or leave it, it's not going to change how groups function.

Group V Group combat is still amazingly fun in this game, though. Hitting, disengaging, circling, trying to get the enemy in a spot where you can annihilate the bulk of their force without losing your own... it's a lot of strategy and it's a blast.

commence the glorious meteor spam!!!!!!!