Toppeling Charge and Templar GCD 2.0.8*

david.haypreub18_ESO · May 2015

ZOS_GaryA wrote: »

I knew the previous answer wasn't a great one, but figured it was better to say "we'll look" rather than let it sit.

It was better, so thanks for that. We appreciate you looking into the issue. If we are a bit cranky, it is just because this has gone on for so long and we've had to fight every step of the way for a year to get the issue even acknowledged; then in the midst of it Eric said it was a bug, which made us hope... and then the next patch notes contradicted him and kept the GCD in. All of this for a class that is really at the bottom of the heap, during the period when ZOS was actually reviewing and trying to fix the class. So all of that made for some hard feelings. But we do thank you for taking charge of this (pun intended)

Jaxsun · May 2015

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_GaryA wrote: »

I knew the previous answer wasn't a great one, but figured it was better to say "we'll look" rather than let it sit.

It was better, so thanks for that. We appreciate you looking into the issue. If we are a bit cranky, it is just because this has gone on for so long and we've had to fight every step of the way for a year to get the issue even acknowledged; then in the midst of it Eric said it was a bug, which made us hope... and then the next patch notes contradicted him and kept the GCD in. All of this for a class that is really at the bottom of the heap, during the period when ZOS was actually reviewing and trying to fix the class. So all of that made for some hard feelings. But we do thank you for taking charge of this (pun intended)

To a "T". Thanks David

Jaxsun · May 2015

Cinbri wrote: »

Animal_Mother wrote: »

Jaxsun wrote: »

ZOS_GaryA wrote: »

Thanks everyone, we've sent the additional feedback along to the correct place to be investigated!

@ZOS_GaryA

Why is there a global cool down on Toppling Charge?

Why is there a GCD on any of our skills?

TC isn't the only ability that seems affected by having one - it is one of the most noticeable. I've experienced delays with pretty much any of our skills - Sun Shield, Spear Shards, Backlash, any of the Restoring LIght tree. They don't seem to fire on keypress, press the key again, nothing and finally a third time and the ability goes off multiple times. Yet, skills like Cleave, Reverse Slash, Poison Arrow, and Arrow Spray activate reliably, without any issues. This with pings under 140ms.

Btw did anyone know that using Spear Shards or Solar Barrage, despite being instant cast, has long animation. If you activating those skills, skillfull enemy can interrupt you by bashing. Didn't test with other templars instant casts but still.

Yeah, this is lame.

kylerjalen · May 2015

I'll echo what @pecheckler said. If there is a clear path it will work.However, if there is no clear path, the animation becomes stuck. I can move around but cannot do anything else. Happened today in Craglorn. Lost a life and ended up responding at the nearest waypoint.
I just respecced and I wish I had never taken it.

technohic · May 2015

kylerjalen wrote: »

I'll echo what @pecheckler said. If there is a clear path it will work.However, if there is no clear path, the animation becomes stuck. I can move around but cannot do anything else. Happened today in Craglorn. Lost a life and ended up responding at the nearest waypoint.
I just respecced and I wish I had never taken it.

I'm not sure that is it. I actually have gotten stuck on flat terrain which even has a graphical path (dirt trail through the grass) the distance of where I would be charging. I will have to see if I can reproduce it and do a new video.

eldermpsmithrwb17_ESO · May 2015

I use it and works 90% of the time, unlike prior 2.06 if i leave it stuck mid animation i usually get functionality back after 20-30s

Imdrefan · May 2015

I was very happy to see that it is allegedly fixed( I have high hopes) but I was very disappointed to not read anything about the GCD's plaguing Templars and Templars alone.

@ZOS_GaryA
@ZOS_GinaBruno

Jaxsun · May 2015

Imdrefan wrote: »

I was very happy to see that it is allegedly fixed( I have high hopes) but I was very disappointed to not read anything about the GCD's plaguing Templars and Templars alone.

@ZOS_GaryA
@ZOS_GinaBruno

Yep, no word on the gcd.....amazing that they wont remove it

david.haypreub18_ESO · May 2015

Jaxsun wrote: »

Imdrefan wrote: »

I was very happy to see that it is allegedly fixed( I have high hopes) but I was very disappointed to not read anything about the GCD's plaguing Templars and Templars alone.

@ZOS_GaryA
@ZOS_GinaBruno

Yep, no word on the gcd.....amazing that they wont remove it

It truly is mystifying.

Eric thought the GCD on Charge was a bug.

Gary couldn't find any reason why it was there in the first place.

Yet someone in the bowels of ZOS keeps insisting that the GCD stay in place, against all reason or explanation...

ZOS_GaryA · May 2015

After speaking with some other folks, the GCD on this ability is currently working as designed, and there are not plans to remove it at this time. That said, we have sent this feedback along to the right folks. We also encourage everyone to submit their feedback using /feedback in the game.

Please keep us up to date if you run into the bug with Toppling Charge getting stuck after 2.0.8. Thanks for your patience everyone!

david.haypreub18_ESO · May 2015

ZOS_GaryA wrote: »

After speaking with some other folks, the GCD on this ability is currently working as designed, and there are not plans to remove it at this time. That said, we have sent this feedback along to the right folks. We also encourage everyone to submit their feedback using /feedback in the game.

Please keep us up to date if you run into the bug with Toppling Charge getting stuck after 2.0.8. Thanks for your patience everyone!

And there you go. Someone other than lead combat designer Eric Wrobel thinks the charge must have a GCD, and will not allow anyone to remove it. No explanation will be given, and the Charge will continue to be plagued by a GCD in perpetuity.

Good luck in Cyrodiil, Templars!

Joy_Division · May 2015

ZOS_GaryA wrote: »

After speaking with some other folks, the GCD on this ability is currently working as designed, and there are not plans to remove it at this time. That said, we have sent this feedback along to the right folks. We also encourage everyone to submit their feedback using /feedback in the game.

Please keep us up to date if you run into the bug with Toppling Charge getting stuck after 2.0.8. Thanks for your patience everyone!

I won't claim to speak for everyone here, but this post illustrates the frustration I have with ZoS.

It is obvious and clear as day to anybody paying attention that just about every templar and a fair number of non-templars feel the GCB on this ability is inconsistent, unnecessary, and detrimental to its overall effect. We have gotten mixed messages from ZoS - from people like Eric Wroebel who have positions of importance on the combat team - that it is not supposed to be there. If the game's players do not want it there, people at ZoS don't it should be there, and none of the other charges have GCB, WHAT IS THE PRESSING REASON / LOGIC FOR IT TO BE WORKING AS DESIGNED?

I mean, you are telling us to use /feedback. And we have. And more so. Look at the list this poster compiled http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162083/when-searching-the-forums-for-toppling-charge/p1 Many posters have clearly expressed that they do not want the GCB and are confused as to why it has one whereas other charge skills do not. As I said, I can't speak for everyone here, but why should I waste my time using /feedback when said feedback has already been pounded home time and again when it is not only ignored, but does not even prompt these "folks" to explain why these undesirable mechanics exist in game? I mean has there been a single thread in the last year with the topic "Please keep the global cooldown on Toppling Charge?"

So I will ask again and I'll even put this question it in the /feedback where it can be ignored as usual: Why is the GCB working as intended with Toppling Charge and why do the "folks" feel Toppling Charge warrants such a distinction between similar skills such as Invasion or Critical Rush?

Imdrefan · May 2015

This is definitely because of PvP and I get it, we have the only instant cast magicka gap closer that doesn't have a penalty. They don't want us flying around the battlefield with a resource that isn't stamina because heaven forbid Templars from having some sort of mobility.

I understand the GCD on breath of life (I effing hate the GCD) but I get it. With unlimited resources breath of life got some serious nerfs and a GCD to boot.

I get it, I just don't agree.

david.haypreub18_ESO · May 2015

The question one has to ask oneself, however, is this:

Are Templars so OP that their abilities need GCDs?

There is only one answer to this.

technohic · May 2015

Guys; the answer to all Templars problems outside of bugs is "learn to be a pocket healer, or work harder than others to succeed." Both of those can be accomplished. We have videos of some exceptional players using Templar doing both. It's not what we want to hear, but it just is.

Jaxsun · May 2015

ZOS_GaryA wrote: »

After speaking with some other folks, the GCD on this ability is currently working as designed, and there are not plans to remove it at this time. That said, we have sent this feedback along to the right folks. We also encourage everyone to submit their feedback using /feedback in the game.

Please keep us up to date if you run into the bug with Toppling Charge getting stuck after 2.0.8. Thanks for your patience everyone!

Why does the cool down exist to begin with?

AriBoh · May 2015

So the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. This is why you lose subs ZoS.

david.haypreub18_ESO · May 2015

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

So the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. This is why you lose subs ZoS.

True. But the right hand does actually know what it is doing... it just won't tell anyone.

Khivas_Carrick · May 2015

technohic wrote: »

Saft wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I think the GCD and the stuck bug has to do with the animation and they have tried to tweak it as much as they can, and its not working. They will probably have to redo the animation or even the mechanic of it and that would likely fall in the more effort they won't do until after console launch.

Just me speculating is all.

I just wish they would get rid of the entire skill. and change it, perhaps we could get an instant cast invis with bonus to run speed. OR a teleport that create a 10k dmg shield instead?

Heh. Like the teleport idea or rather it just become a leap graphically for that to bypass possible terrain issues and maybe reduce animation lag, but a 10k damage shield to go with it would be over the top.

Nah, what they should do is replace Binding Javelin and this skill with melee DPS and Tank friendly skills, with one of these having a Stamina option, and the other a useful DoT. That would go a long way for Templar DPS outside of having to spam jabs and reach and work for PvP skills that all may not want.

Khivas_Carrick · May 2015

Like Toppling Charge and what not gets turned into two melee attacks that light enemies on fire, but one morph deals more damage and is based on stamina while the other is Magicka and makes a damage shield for the damage done or something.

The Javelin Skills could be reworked as actual real CC that holds a single enemy in place until it morphs, where it'll either root one enemy in place for longer and deal a little damage or it'll burst on an enemy and root targets near it as well.

Another idea was to make Blazing Spear use a different, far more direct and faster animation, and for all forms to deal DoT damage, with Blazing Dealing more.

Imdrefan · May 2015

Anyone been stuck in animation? I haven't experienced it yet, fingers crossed.

kylerjalen · May 2015

I would say I get stuck maybe, two out of every ten times I cast the ability. I gave up and respecced it out. Pointless and stupid, especially when you're helping clear a dungeon or in PvP.

Imdrefan · May 2015

kylerjalen wrote: »

I would say I get stuck maybe, two out of every ten times I cast the ability. I gave up and respecced it out. Pointless and stupid, especially when you're helping clear a dungeon or in PvP.

You've gotten stuck since 2.0.8?

danno8 · May 2015

Imdrefan wrote: »

kylerjalen wrote: »

I would say I get stuck maybe, two out of every ten times I cast the ability. I gave up and respecced it out. Pointless and stupid, especially when you're helping clear a dungeon or in PvP.

You've gotten stuck since 2.0.8?

I have not yet, after about 6-7 hours of gameplay since Monday.

By this point in any other week, I would have had it happen 10 times by now. So it does seem fixed/vastly improved to me.

glak · May 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_GaryA wrote: »

After speaking with some other folks, the GCD on this ability is currently working as designed, and there are not plans to remove it at this time. That said, we have sent this feedback along to the right folks. We also encourage everyone to submit their feedback using /feedback in the game.

Please keep us up to date if you run into the bug with Toppling Charge getting stuck after 2.0.8. Thanks for your patience everyone!

I won't claim to speak for everyone here, but this post illustrates the frustration I have with ZoS.

It is obvious and clear as day to anybody paying attention that just about every templar and a fair number of non-templars feel the GCB on this ability is inconsistent, unnecessary, and detrimental to its overall effect. We have gotten mixed messages from ZoS - from people like Eric Wroebel who have positions of importance on the combat team - that it is not supposed to be there. If the game's players do not want it there, people at ZoS don't it should be there, and none of the other charges have GCB, WHAT IS THE PRESSING REASON / LOGIC FOR IT TO BE WORKING AS DESIGNED?

I mean, you are telling us to use /feedback. And we have. And more so. Look at the list this poster compiled http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162083/when-searching-the-forums-for-toppling-charge/p1 Many posters have clearly expressed that they do not want the GCB and are confused as to why it has one whereas other charge skills do not. As I said, I can't speak for everyone here, but why should I waste my time using /feedback when said feedback has already been pounded home time and again when it is not only ignored, but does not even prompt these "folks" to explain why these undesirable mechanics exist in game? I mean has there been a single thread in the last year with the topic "Please keep the global cooldown on Toppling Charge?"

So I will ask again and I'll even put this question it in the /feedback where it can be ignored as usual: Why is the GCB working as intended with Toppling Charge and why do the "folks" feel Toppling Charge warrants such a distinction between similar skills such as Invasion or Critical Rush?

Jaxsun wrote: »

ZOS_GaryA wrote: »

Jaxsun wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_GaryA wrote: »

Jaxsun wrote: »

ZOS_GaryA wrote: »

Thanks everyone, we've sent the additional feedback along to the correct place to be investigated!

@ZOS_GaryA

Why is there a global cool down on Toppling Charge?

Best answer we can give at the moment: We can confirm there is a post global cooldown on the ability, but we don't readily have an answer as to why it has one and Shield Charge does not.

The answer is because you introduced it shortly after launch. We have no idea why you did that, but you were the ones who did it; it seemed to have something to do with bots. Is there no one there who knows why? Eric certainly thought it was a bug on the ESO Live a couple of months back. How can your own lead combat designer think it's a bug, and at the same time no one on your dev team have any idea why it is there, and still others somewhere in ZOS offices who insist on keeping the GCD? Worse, how can anyone see this cleary messed-up situation, where the left hand doesn't know what he right is doing, and ignore it month after month after month?

We're always open to feedback on abilities, and we'll be happy to forward this along to the appropriate folks. We know it's a non-answer, but we also didn't want you to think we'd ignored it intentionally.

Well, thanks for that. From all Templars everywhere, please forward this feedback on to the appropriate folks: remove the GCD. ESPECIALLY if no one can remember why it is there in the first place.

On the good news front, we believe that the root cause has been discovered for the Toppling Charge bug and a new fix is headed to QA for verification tomorrow. Assuming everything goes well, it'll be included in an incremental patch soon. Thanks so much for the feedback, it was a huge help!

Burn me once...

Exactly!!

Again, happy to forward it along. It's not a matter of "no one knows why it was there in the first place." By all accounts we've heard so far, the GCD is by design. We'll get in touch with some folks and ask about said design to see if we can get some better clarification.

I knew the previous answer wasn't a great one, but figured it was better to say "we'll look" rather than let it sit.

Thanks for your patience and feedback everyone .

We already know why, the cool down was implemented as an anti-bot mechanic. The next step is admitting that's why it was implemented and remove it...

If it's for anti botting, then they can't tell us why.

Explosive Charge does too much damage and interrupts, the same amount as single target, but to everything in the AoE.

olemanwinter · May 2015

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

So the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. This is why you lose subs ZoS.

Let me tell you a little story.

Shortly after (a month or so) launch I discovered that the Vampire health regen penalty was being applied to armor and potions and everything.

So, if you had 100 regen and vamp took you to 25......and you equip a piece of Song of Lamae armor that should increase your health regen by 100....you woudl have 50.

I had a half a dozen mails back and forth with Zos where they DIDN"T EVEN BELIEVE ME. I had to take screen shots...test and prove to them it was thus.

After a week of proving that this was even happening......They finally reply "Working as intended".

lmao.

They don't even know what is happening...they only know it's working as intended.

Jaxsun · May 2015

glak wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_GaryA wrote: »

After speaking with some other folks, the GCD on this ability is currently working as designed, and there are not plans to remove it at this time. That said, we have sent this feedback along to the right folks. We also encourage everyone to submit their feedback using /feedback in the game.

Please keep us up to date if you run into the bug with Toppling Charge getting stuck after 2.0.8. Thanks for your patience everyone!

I won't claim to speak for everyone here, but this post illustrates the frustration I have with ZoS.

It is obvious and clear as day to anybody paying attention that just about every templar and a fair number of non-templars feel the GCB on this ability is inconsistent, unnecessary, and detrimental to its overall effect. We have gotten mixed messages from ZoS - from people like Eric Wroebel who have positions of importance on the combat team - that it is not supposed to be there. If the game's players do not want it there, people at ZoS don't it should be there, and none of the other charges have GCB, WHAT IS THE PRESSING REASON / LOGIC FOR IT TO BE WORKING AS DESIGNED?

I mean, you are telling us to use /feedback. And we have. And more so. Look at the list this poster compiled http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162083/when-searching-the-forums-for-toppling-charge/p1 Many posters have clearly expressed that they do not want the GCB and are confused as to why it has one whereas other charge skills do not. As I said, I can't speak for everyone here, but why should I waste my time using /feedback when said feedback has already been pounded home time and again when it is not only ignored, but does not even prompt these "folks" to explain why these undesirable mechanics exist in game? I mean has there been a single thread in the last year with the topic "Please keep the global cooldown on Toppling Charge?"

So I will ask again and I'll even put this question it in the /feedback where it can be ignored as usual: Why is the GCB working as intended with Toppling Charge and why do the "folks" feel Toppling Charge warrants such a distinction between similar skills such as Invasion or Critical Rush?

Jaxsun wrote: »

ZOS_GaryA wrote: »

Jaxsun wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_GaryA wrote: »

Jaxsun wrote: »

ZOS_GaryA wrote: »

Thanks everyone, we've sent the additional feedback along to the correct place to be investigated!

@ZOS_GaryA

Why is there a global cool down on Toppling Charge?

Best answer we can give at the moment: We can confirm there is a post global cooldown on the ability, but we don't readily have an answer as to why it has one and Shield Charge does not.

The answer is because you introduced it shortly after launch. We have no idea why you did that, but you were the ones who did it; it seemed to have something to do with bots. Is there no one there who knows why? Eric certainly thought it was a bug on the ESO Live a couple of months back. How can your own lead combat designer think it's a bug, and at the same time no one on your dev team have any idea why it is there, and still others somewhere in ZOS offices who insist on keeping the GCD? Worse, how can anyone see this cleary messed-up situation, where the left hand doesn't know what he right is doing, and ignore it month after month after month?

We're always open to feedback on abilities, and we'll be happy to forward this along to the appropriate folks. We know it's a non-answer, but we also didn't want you to think we'd ignored it intentionally.

Well, thanks for that. From all Templars everywhere, please forward this feedback on to the appropriate folks: remove the GCD. ESPECIALLY if no one can remember why it is there in the first place.

On the good news front, we believe that the root cause has been discovered for the Toppling Charge bug and a new fix is headed to QA for verification tomorrow. Assuming everything goes well, it'll be included in an incremental patch soon. Thanks so much for the feedback, it was a huge help!

Burn me once...

Exactly!!

Again, happy to forward it along. It's not a matter of "no one knows why it was there in the first place." By all accounts we've heard so far, the GCD is by design. We'll get in touch with some folks and ask about said design to see if we can get some better clarification.

I knew the previous answer wasn't a great one, but figured it was better to say "we'll look" rather than let it sit.

Thanks for your patience and feedback everyone .

We already know why, the cool down was implemented as an anti-bot mechanic. The next step is admitting that's why it was implemented and remove it...

If it's for anti botting, then they can't tell us why.

Explosive Charge does too much damage and interrupts, the same amount as single target, but to everything in the AoE.

They don't need the anti-bot mechanics.

technohic · May 2015

Been charging left and right and have not been stuck. The times I think I will; I go flying past my target by about 5-10 meters. lol Reminds me of some time ago when the charge would always take me past my target.

Saft · May 2015

The Global Cooldown make skill crap, I suggest use Invasion or Shield charge, no global cooldown and somehow the botters can not use a sword and shield skill i guess.

Other alternative Critical Rush 2H no Global cooldown either and does loads dmg and always crit.

Imdrefan · May 2015

@ZOS_GaryA
@ZOS_GinaBruno

The general consensus is that toppling charge animation bug is 100% fixed, I haven't heard from anyone that they have been stuck in animation. For that, I think every templar and my personal supply of potions thank you.

While being extremely grateful for this fix, can the focus be now turned to the global cool downs plaguing toppeling charge as well as Breath of Life, spear shards (and it's morphs) and solar barrage?

I think the global cool down on these abilities has been a great hinderance on especially solar barrage from day one, but also since 1.6 the GCD on Breath of Life has made it very clunky and unresponsive.

Would we be able to get some feedback on the possibility of changes being made?