Snipe: Can we take a moment to look back at this skill?

vortexman11 · May 2015

Ok, I guess this is going to be a short one, here I go.

99% of us complain on a daily basis about how overpowered wreckingblow is, and this isn't a post to defend wreckingblow or anything, Im just mentioning it. But lets talk about snipe. This skill has a 48 meter range in Cyrodiil which can be increased using sets, skills, and passives. It is also one of the hardest hitting skills in the game.

Just for a reference, I'm not a stamina build and have no points in these skills right now, and these are their tooltip damages:
Snipe- 4284
Uppercut- 4141

As you can see from just the base tooltip damage, snipe hits harder than wreckingblow. Why is it that the skill in the game with the greatest range is also one of the, if not the most damaging skill? How does this make sense? Snipe is pretty much the equivalent of someone hitting you with a wreckingblow from almost 50 meters away...

Now lets look at destro staffs and their abilities (This is not a magicka VS stamina post). We have certain skills which I consider equivalent:
Destructive Touch and Scatter Shot
Wall of Elements and Arrow Spray
ForceShock and Poison Arrow
Impulse and Volley

This only leaves two skills left, Weakness to Elements and...Snipe. Lets look at Weakness to Elements for a second, its a skill which is basically a debuff that allows you to do more damage against people you casted it on. Now lets look at the morphs of snipe, one is an armour debuff allowing the caster to do more damage along with a buff to the range of all bow attacks, the other is a healing debuff. The secondary effects of snipe are all good to me, its the damage that I think is a problem, I'd like to propose a new revamped snipe along with its morphs.

Snipe - Plant a masterfully aimed arrow in an enemy's vital spot, dealing 2142 Physical Damage. Also afflicts the enemy with Major Fracture which reduces the enemy's Armor by 5120 for 12 seconds.

Lethal Arrow -Plant a masterfully aimed arrow in an enemy's vital spot, dealing 2142 Poison Damage and applying the poison status effect. Also afflicts the enemy with Major Fracture which reduces the enemy's Armor by 5120 for 12 seconds. Also afflicts the enemy with Major Defile which reduces the enemy's Healing by 30% for 10 seconds.

Focused Aim-Plant a masterfully aimed arrow in an enemy's vital spot, dealing 2142 Physical Damage and marking the target. Also afflicts the enemy with Major Fracture which reduces the enemy's Armor by 5120 for 12 seconds. Also afflicts the enemy with Minor Fracture which reduces the enemy's Armor by 960 for 10 seconds. The mark increases the range from which the enemy can be hit by Bow attacks by 5 meters. It lasts 10 seconds.

Basically what I proposed halves the damage of snipe and its morphs, while providing a debuff to armour along with the debuffs/range buff they had previously. This would still be the hardest hitting bow skill, but it wont be the equivalent of tossing a two handed sword at someones face...

I lied about this being short. If you read all the way to this point...thanks I guess.

Gyudan · May 2015

Snipe requires a cast time and bow users are already underperforming in PVE DPS. The current damage is fine.

AhPook_Is_Here · May 2015

I agree, snipe could use a buff.

vortexman11 · May 2015

Gyudan wrote: »

Snipe requires a cast time and bow users are already underperforming in PVE DPS. The current damage is fine.

Snipe has the same cast time as wrecking blow and is able to be shot from 40 meters further while doing the same if not more damage.

Weberda · May 2015

Did Panda244 pay you to make this thread? He's never forgiven me for sniping him while he was dueling you. And now you're picking on my backup weapon. I like the idea of throwing a two handed sword in someone's face although as you once told me "it's hard to aim a 70lb. weapon".

vortexman11 · May 2015

Weberda wrote: »

Did Panda244 pay you to make this thread? He's never forgiven me for sniping him while he was dueling you. And now you're picking on my backup weapon. I like the idea of throwing a two handed sword in someone's face although as you once told me "it's hard to aim a 70lb. weapon".

If only Panda had the gold to pay me..

Takllin · May 2015

vortexman11 wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

Snipe requires a cast time and bow users are already underperforming in PVE DPS. The current damage is fine.

Snipe has the same cast time as wrecking blow and is able to be shot from 40 meters further while doing the same if not more damage.

You also get the passive bow which increases damage based on distance away from the target.

Long Shots: Bestows up to 12% bonus damage against enemies at longer range.

vortexman11 · May 2015

Takllin wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

Snipe requires a cast time and bow users are already underperforming in PVE DPS. The current damage is fine.

Snipe has the same cast time as wrecking blow and is able to be shot from 40 meters further while doing the same if not more damage.

You also get the passive bow which increases damage based on distance away from the target.

Long Shots: Bestows up to 12% bonus damage against enemies at longer range.

Thank you I didn't even know about this passive.

Maulkin · May 2015

Snipe on it's own is fine imo.

The combo...

Activate Camo Hunter-> Toggle Magelight (empower buff) -> Snipe -> Ambush/Crit Rush -> Ultimate or Execute

...that does anywhere from a minimum of 25k to a maximum 45k damage in 1" second?

Yeah, that needs looking at.

It's the delay on Snipe that's being used to set up huge damage. Using also the Empower buffs from Magelight and Ambush and the stun to set up the execute or ultimate drop (usually incapa). Not sure what the best way is to sort this without nerfing the damage from snipe itself.

Garion · May 2015

Bows have always been too strong. ZOS didn't do bugger all about it in 1.5 though, so I don't see them doing much about it in 1.6 either. Nonetheless, take an 'agree'.

DDuke · May 2015

vortexman11 wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

Snipe requires a cast time and bow users are already underperforming in PVE DPS. The current damage is fine.

Snipe has the same cast time as wrecking blow and is able to be shot from 40 meters further while doing the same if not more damage.

You also get the passive bow which increases damage based on distance away from the target.

Long Shots: Bestows up to 12% bonus damage against enemies at longer range.

Thank you I didn't even know about this passive.

There's clearly a lot more you don't know about Snipe/Bow in general.

As @mike.gaziotisb16_ESO mentioned above, it's more of a matter of certain skills used in tandem for huge burst.

Same kind of burst that can be done by sorcs using Overload & Magicka Detonation+Curse etc.

The conclusion we can draw from this is that the problem isn't Bow having too much burst (it doesn't really, the only skill that hurts is Snipe & it won't get through dmg shields alone). In fact, a player using DW (for max. weapon dmg) & going Ambush->Surprise Attack/Soul Harvest deals more damage in the same amount of time.

The problem is the low overall TTK in this game.

I'm all fine for them increasing the TTK (preferably by giving everyone more health in Cyrodiil), but they have to make this change in tandem with reducing the power of pro-active defensive mechanisms (yes, talking about shields, permablock & roll dodge spam), else everyone is just going to embrace the "let me spam this button & you spam your button, then let's see who runs out of stamina/magicka first" type of gameplay.

vortexman11 · May 2015

DDuke wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

Snipe requires a cast time and bow users are already underperforming in PVE DPS. The current damage is fine.

Snipe has the same cast time as wrecking blow and is able to be shot from 40 meters further while doing the same if not more damage.

You also get the passive bow which increases damage based on distance away from the target.

Long Shots: Bestows up to 12% bonus damage against enemies at longer range.

Thank you I didn't even know about this passive.

There's clearly a lot more you don't know about Snipe/Bow in general.

As @mike.gaziotisb16_ESO mentioned above, it's more of a matter of certain skills used in tandem for huge burst.

Same kind of burst that can be done by sorcs using Overload & Magicka Detonation+Curse etc.

The conclusion we can draw from this is that the problem isn't Bow having too much burst (it doesn't really, the only skill that hurts is Snipe & it won't get through dmg shields alone). In fact, a player using DW (for max. weapon dmg) & going Ambush->Surprise Attack/Soul Harvest deals more damage in the same amount of time.

The problem is the low overall TTK in this game.

I'm all fine for them increasing the TTK (preferably by giving everyone more health in Cyrodiil), but they have to make this change in tandem with reducing the power of pro-active defensive mechanisms (yes, talking about shields, permablock & roll dodge spam), else everyone is just going to embrace the "let me spam this button & you spam your button, then let's see who runs out of stamina/magicka first" type of gameplay.

I've used every weapon in this game and all abilities when I said I didn't know about that passive what I meant is that I forgot to mention it in this thread. I understand that its certain skills used in tandem, but its the same case with other skills.

My point here is that the damage from Snipe increases just as easily as that of other extremely hard hitting attacks, yet it has the longest range of any skill in game. Not only this, but as @Takllin reminded me, they get rewarded for being even further away by gaining even more damage.

And that Ambush->Surprise Attack/Soul Harvest combo requires the caster to be right next to you, not 48 meteres away on a hill pressing one button from stealth and hitting you for 15k+

Kupoking · May 2015

Note that nbs who one shot people sacrifice everything for burst dmg Especially survivability.

vortexman11 · May 2015

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Note that nbs who one shot people sacrifice everything for burst dmg Especially survivability.

Note that survivability doesn't matter when you're 48 meteres away. I said the same thing you said but about tanking in PvP sacrificing all your DPS, yet people are still perfectly fine with fear being able to kill them without the chance to break free.

DDuke · May 2015

vortexman11 wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Note that nbs who one shot people sacrifice everything for burst dmg Especially survivability.

Note that survivability doesn't matter when you're 48 meteres away. I said the same thing you said about but about tanking in PvP sacrificing all your DPS, yet people are still perfectly fine with fear being able to kill them without the chance to break free.

Sure, you can kill people by just spamming Snipe from 48 meters away. (Un)fortunately, this person you're sniping has to:

Have the reaction time of >1,3 seconds (time it takes for 2nd Snipe to land). In other words, the target you're sniping has to be a rock/potato.
Have health below 30k
Have no damage shield up (Snipe on damage shields hits for only around 8-9k, less than shield strength)

As for the long range... it's fine. We don't want every skill in the game to have the exact same range & perform the exact same functions. That is called dumbing down.

What we want is diversity in the gameplay & opponents you're facing, and this is why it's good to have skills like Snipe.

At first, I thought this was another thread about the insane burst damage in this game (that I can understand), but it turns out to be just another QQ about Snipe skill having long range.

By the way, your numbers are off.

Just for a reference, I'm not a stamina build and have no points in these skills right now, and these are their tooltip damages:
Snipe- 4284
Uppercut- 4141

If your Uppercut is showing higher damage than Snipe, that means you're likely looking at Snipe tooltip while having a 2H or DW weapon equipped. Try again after equipping a bow (which has significantly lower weapon dmg than the other two alternatives). It should deal around 10-20% less damage according to tooltip than Wrecking Blow.

nothing2591 · May 2015

Snipe is for cowards and i think the range is way to long and the fact that you can re-enter steath after using it at max range is a little wrong

vortexman11 · May 2015

DDuke wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Note that nbs who one shot people sacrifice everything for burst dmg Especially survivability.

Note that survivability doesn't matter when you're 48 meteres away. I said the same thing you said about but about tanking in PvP sacrificing all your DPS, yet people are still perfectly fine with fear being able to kill them without the chance to break free.

Sure, you can kill people by just spamming Snipe from 48 meters away. (Un)fortunately, this person you're sniping has to:
Have the reaction time of >1,3 seconds (time it takes for 2nd Snipe to land). In other words, the target you're sniping has to be a rock/potato.

Have health below 30k

Have no damage shield up (Snipe on damage shields hits for only around 8-9k, less than shield strength)

As for the long range... it's fine. We don't want every skill in the game to have the exact same range & perform the exact same functions. That is called dumbing down.

What we want is diversity in the gameplay & opponents you're facing, and this is why it's good to have skills like Snipe.

At first, I thought this was another thread about the insane burst damage in this game (that I can understand), but it turns out to be just another QQ about Snipe skill having long range.

By the way, your numbers are off.

Just for a reference, I'm not a stamina build and have no points in these skills right now, and these are their tooltip damages:
Snipe- 4284
Uppercut- 4141

If your Uppercut is showing higher damage than Snipe, that means you're likely looking at Snipe tooltip while having a 2H or DW weapon equipped. Try again after equipping a bow (which has significantly lower weapon dmg than the other two alternatives). It should deal around 10-20% less damage according to tooltip than Wrecking Blow.

That tooltip damage was with no weapon equipped at all, just to see the base of both.
This isn't a QQ thread about the range of snipe, I never said anything about nerfing the range of snipe I even said the morph that increases its range (and that of other bow skills) should stay the same, like I've said three or four times now the amount of damage the skill does compared to its range is too much. No one should be able to hit that hard without any risk involved (other than that of a DK reflecting it)

I don't post to QQ I post to provide my point of view and to read what you guys have to say.

Xsorus · May 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Snipe on it's own is fine imo.

The combo...

Activate Camo Hunter-> Toggle Magelight (empower buff) -> Snipe -> Ambush/Crit Rush -> Ultimate or Execute

...that does anywhere from a minimum of 25k to a maximum 45k damage in 1" second?

Yeah, that needs looking at.

It's the delay on Snipe that's being used to set up huge damage. Using also the Empower buffs from Magelight and Ambush and the stun to set up the execute or ultimate drop (usually incapa). Not sure what the best way is to sort this without nerfing the damage from snipe itself.

This...Snipe on my DK isn't super amazing...It won't get through shields and such most of the time....This combo though on my NB is silly.

DDuke · May 2015

vortexman11 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Note that nbs who one shot people sacrifice everything for burst dmg Especially survivability.

Note that survivability doesn't matter when you're 48 meteres away. I said the same thing you said about but about tanking in PvP sacrificing all your DPS, yet people are still perfectly fine with fear being able to kill them without the chance to break free.

Sure, you can kill people by just spamming Snipe from 48 meters away. (Un)fortunately, this person you're sniping has to:
Have the reaction time of >1,3 seconds (time it takes for 2nd Snipe to land). In other words, the target you're sniping has to be a rock/potato.

Have health below 30k

Have no damage shield up (Snipe on damage shields hits for only around 8-9k, less than shield strength)

As for the long range... it's fine. We don't want every skill in the game to have the exact same range & perform the exact same functions. That is called dumbing down.

What we want is diversity in the gameplay & opponents you're facing, and this is why it's good to have skills like Snipe.

At first, I thought this was another thread about the insane burst damage in this game (that I can understand), but it turns out to be just another QQ about Snipe skill having long range.

By the way, your numbers are off.

Just for a reference, I'm not a stamina build and have no points in these skills right now, and these are their tooltip damages:
Snipe- 4284
Uppercut- 4141

If your Uppercut is showing higher damage than Snipe, that means you're likely looking at Snipe tooltip while having a 2H or DW weapon equipped. Try again after equipping a bow (which has significantly lower weapon dmg than the other two alternatives). It should deal around 10-20% less damage according to tooltip than Wrecking Blow.

That tooltip damage was with no weapon equipped at all, just to see the base of both.
This isn't a QQ thread about the range of snipe, I never said anything about nerfing the range of snipe I even said the morph that increases its range (and that of other bow skills) should stay the same, like I've said three or four times now the amount of damage the skill does compared to its range is too much. No one should be able to hit that hard without any risk involved (other than that of a DK reflecting it)

I don't post to QQ I post to provide my point of view and to read what you guys have to say.

As I said, your numbers are off.

The difference between bow & 2H is around 300-400 weapon damage, meaning that once you equip your 2H weapon Wrecking Blow will deal significantly more damage than Snipe.

Just saying that your point of view suffers from some misinformation.

Also, a sorc can easily catch up a snipe spammer, even if that spammer happens to be 48m+ away (and it's probable he wont be able to restealth for 30+ seconds if he failed to kill someone with that snipe). If you aren't a sorc, you can also try run speed potion (I've nailed some snipers with that).

Remember, as long as these snipers are outside "normal" range, they'll be unable to perform the real burst damage combos (and thus they are highly unlikely to kill you, if you are a decent player).

Maulkin · May 2015

Don't worry folks I have the solution...

1) Remove Empower Buffs from the game (I've said this many times). All the highest burst abilities benefit from that, magicka and stamina, and that causes a lot of the TTK problems. In the combo I mentioned both Ambush and Snipe get empower buffs applied to them which increases their damage hugely

2) Reduce the travel time of snipe to be the same as any other bow ability (i.e. Quick). That would kill two birds with one stone. Bird one: you can't use the travel time to get stealth bonus applied to two hits. Bird two: PvE DPS would probably increase for bow builds and they need it.

Obviously the above two would need to happen with some balancing changes on the cost of Wards and dodge-roll to make sure you can still kill people afterwards.

vortexman11 · May 2015

DDuke wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Note that nbs who one shot people sacrifice everything for burst dmg Especially survivability.

Note that survivability doesn't matter when you're 48 meteres away. I said the same thing you said about but about tanking in PvP sacrificing all your DPS, yet people are still perfectly fine with fear being able to kill them without the chance to break free.

Sure, you can kill people by just spamming Snipe from 48 meters away. (Un)fortunately, this person you're sniping has to:
Have the reaction time of >1,3 seconds (time it takes for 2nd Snipe to land). In other words, the target you're sniping has to be a rock/potato.

Have health below 30k

Have no damage shield up (Snipe on damage shields hits for only around 8-9k, less than shield strength)

As for the long range... it's fine. We don't want every skill in the game to have the exact same range & perform the exact same functions. That is called dumbing down.

What we want is diversity in the gameplay & opponents you're facing, and this is why it's good to have skills like Snipe.

At first, I thought this was another thread about the insane burst damage in this game (that I can understand), but it turns out to be just another QQ about Snipe skill having long range.

By the way, your numbers are off.

Just for a reference, I'm not a stamina build and have no points in these skills right now, and these are their tooltip damages:
Snipe- 4284
Uppercut- 4141

If your Uppercut is showing higher damage than Snipe, that means you're likely looking at Snipe tooltip while having a 2H or DW weapon equipped. Try again after equipping a bow (which has significantly lower weapon dmg than the other two alternatives). It should deal around 10-20% less damage according to tooltip than Wrecking Blow.

That tooltip damage was with no weapon equipped at all, just to see the base of both.
This isn't a QQ thread about the range of snipe, I never said anything about nerfing the range of snipe I even said the morph that increases its range (and that of other bow skills) should stay the same, like I've said three or four times now the amount of damage the skill does compared to its range is too much. No one should be able to hit that hard without any risk involved (other than that of a DK reflecting it)

I don't post to QQ I post to provide my point of view and to read what you guys have to say.

As I said, your numbers are off.

The difference between bow & 2H is around 300-400 weapon damage, meaning that once you equip your 2H weapon Wrecking Blow will deal significantly more damage than Snipe.

Just saying that your point of view suffers from some misinformation.

Also, a sorc can easily catch up a snipe spammer, even if that spammer happens to be 48m+ away (and it's probable he wont be able to restealth for 30+ seconds if he failed to kill someone with that snipe). If you aren't a sorc, you can also try run speed potion (I've nailed some snipers with that).

Remember, as long as these snipers are outside "normal" range, they'll be unable to perform the real burst damage combos (and thus they are highly unlikely to kill you, if you are a decent player).

You make some very good points, but again, Im not talking about the use of this skill situationally, Im just pointing out the fact that the risk/reward for this skill is really not balanced but if we are talking about it in that way I'd assume whoever used the snipe to not be running a double bow build and to have either Dual Wield or Two on their other bar, allowing them to perform the real burst damage just fine if need be when someone got close.

And I never did mention snipe spammers either, I see why you thought this was a QQ post, and Im sorry if it came across that way.

Tankqull · May 2015

a reletivly simple fix would be a range dependend dmg reduction if you are within 10m from your target 100% 10-20m => 75% 20+m = 50%.

cozmon3c_ESO · May 2015

i like this idea as long as the debuffs arent added to the damage of the first shot, so basically it will hit just as hard as it used to (maybe) after it hits the target the first time, so you got your 3k snipe from stealth hitting for about what a normal out of stealth one will do now, but has an added benifit of stun and damage, then the next one will hit about the same with the major armor debuff now applied.

stealth snipe shots are one of the most unskillful mechanics of the game and the OPs suggestion i think will bring it into balance, its not the snipe from out of stealth that is the issue, its the snipe from stealth that is.

just my two cents on the issue, and i think its a good idea for the longevity of the game.

OrphanHelgen · May 2015

Gyudan wrote: »

Snipe requires a cast time and bow users are already underperforming in PVE DPS. The current damage is fine.

could not agree more

Kartalin · May 2015

nothing2591 wrote: »

re-enter steath

Lol

vortexman11 wrote: »

Snipe- 4284
Uppercut- 4141

I currently use DW, 2H, and Bow as my weapons. Having maxed these out with passives and such, I can generally do twice as much damage with a Wrecking Blow compared to Lethal Arrow, though Lethal Arrow does have a DoT. Against an un-armored, un-shielded V12 mob from stealth I get about 37-39k for Wrecking Blow and 17-19k for Lethal Arrow. Also you rarely get a chance to use Wrecking Blow from stealth against other players (but it's so awesome when you can) so the damage ends up looking about the same. If you're not using reflect then what you need to be concerned with is Flying Daggers

.

Gorthax · May 2015

@vortexman11 my question is this: Why can arrows fly as far as they do but magick has such a short range........

that being said, how come scatter shot does more damage (correct me if I am wrong) than WoE if both are aoe dot?

or how about melee giving more spell damage than staffs....

I see you post all these issue threads, but I have yet seen you touch on that topic (the weapon one). I always enjoy reading your stances on things. Though some I giggle at

Kelleton · May 2015

leave snipe damage the same and have it bypass shields - give those mages something to fear

vortexman11 · May 2015

Gorthax wrote: »

@vortexman11 my question is this: Why can arrows fly as far as they do but magick has such a short range........

that being said, how come scatter shot does more damage (correct me if I am wrong) than WoE if both are aoe dot?

or how about melee giving more spell damage than staffs....

I see you post all these issue threads, but I have yet seen you touch on that topic (the weapon one). I always enjoy reading your stances on things. Though some I giggle at

Like I said I didn't want this to turn into a Magicka VS Stamina post, I just wanted to show how there is no range/damage equivalent to snipe in any weapon skill line.

I'm assuming you're talking about dual wield and S/B giving more spell damage, and as far as I know (what I've heard from people I've talked to) this is a bug with the passives Dual Wield Expert, and Sword and Board, I've never really tested it but I've heard the bonuses to weapon dmg that they give are also effecting spell damage.

EDIT: Just decided to equip my Masters Great Sword, its putting me at 2011 Spell Dmg compared to when I have a Masters Lightning Staff which puts me at 1619, I don't have much to say about that other than it obviously needs to be fixed

For that ScatterShot VS WoE I think you meant to say Arrow Spray, I can't compare the two as Im not specced to use either at the moment

Derra · May 2015

nothing2591 wrote: »

Snipe is for cowards and i think the range is way to long and the fact that you can re-enter steath after using it at max range is a little wrong

I think this can not be stated enough. The stealth system in this game is far to forgiving and "noobfriendly". You should not be able to reenter stealth (for all classes but NB) after you´ve fired a targeted attack at an enemy player.

Hypertionb14_ESO · May 2015

definite no.

Brizz · May 2015

Snipe used to be a lot better, but since a ton of players picked it up and started spamming it, other players have slotted either reflects or have learned how to roll dodge effectively. It's actually pretty hard to sit back and snipe like you used to be able to do, and personally I don't find it very fun.