So the steel tornado zerg meta finally established.. that took a while!

Hypertionb14_ESO · May 2015

steel tornado was alway better than impulse, it was the first stamina skill worth anything. always had better damage, always had better radius.

its only now that the sudden rise in Stamina builds and the Nirned Defenses that suddenly the idoit masses realized "wow steel tornado is good" and started using it in droves..

Imdrefan · May 2015

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

steel tornado was alway better than impulse, it was the first stamina skill worth anything. always had better damage, always had better radius.

its only now that the sudden rise in Stamina builds and the Nirned Defenses that suddenly the idoit masses realized "wow steel tornado is good" and started using it in droves..

Uhhh... People didn't use it because it was one of the few blockable AoEs so everyone just held block and spammed impulse (which would go through block)

You must've not PvPed much.

klink012 · May 2015

pppontus wrote: »

Had some decent fights on Azura yesterday with the reds who aren't vigorlagnadoballing and some yellows.

But didn't make the slightest difference to the map. My group (4 people) were constantly calling in TS "Ash under siege, ales under attack, rayles etc." and I'm like .. *** it, guaranteed to be the yellow lagnado ball.. let them just have it. Meanwhile we were fighting at bleakers and the gates where we owned nothing just so we could at least have some pvp action..

So from now on take whatever you want - soon you'll be PvDing in prime time because there's no point.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler
Are you aware that every one of your changes to PvP since 1.6 has served to simply strengthen the people who stack and spam AOEs?
Are you aware that your game extremely heavily favours the largest possible groups?
Are you aware that the "unbalanced ultimate regen" of 1.5 was one of the only ways these large groups could be countered by smaller groups?
Are you aware that fire siege, magicka detonation, oil, meatbags and oil catapults are completely useless against large groups who have 20k+ shields from barriers and 4 people spamming purges?
Are you aware that average time to kill nowadays is nothing more than a few seconds, and that this is further driving people to hide in enormous groups?
Are you aware of the massive unbalance between Stamina and Magicka right now - where you can use traits to put your spell resistance massively above hardcap, use champion points to reduce both magic and elemental damage - where there are 0 such options for reducing physical damage?

And most importantly, are you going to actually do something about it or can I relay the message to all pvpers I know that are still hoping, that they might as well stop waiting and uninstall ESO already? I mean, as a leader of one of the largest EU guilds, honestly it sucks to see us lose such a massive amount of players every day - but I can't blame them and I will be following them soon enough if this continues.

I think all PvPers deserve a response to these questions. Thanks.

This should be a sticky on the forum!!

glak · May 2015

Other players' Steel tornado in PvE 1.5 prevented me from using my abilities. So this is a combination of things.

FENGRUSH · May 2015

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

tonemd wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

VagabondAngel wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

I used to share my strategies but I won't do it anymore.... blah blah blah

Your sarcasm detector must be off. I am in one of the biggest PvP guilds of EP on the EU server and I am well aware of the strategies, skills, and gear that make good players and groups, thank you. My rhetorical sarcasm was intended to imply that your assertion that spamming one or two skills in a stacked group is not the reason for their effectiveness is, in fact, utter nonsense. Do you understand that or are you going to attempt to patronise me some more?

You are the one who asked me to explain which strategies I was reffering to and after I took the time to explain a lil bit more what my point was, you defend yourself stating that you are part of a big guild and that you already know all of that.

Make up your mind and stop wasting my time.

I'm still curious about these 50 other factors to successful zerging. All you really explained was that you can't just slot steel tornado in soul shriven robes and expect to win. So....what are the other 49 factors?

In my book, a zerg = 30players or more. Like I said plenty of times in my last posts, I run between 12-16players group during offhours and a full group during primetime. I also discourage people who stack 30-40men together and I will be the first to spread out some place else when I see too many EPs next to me.

Once we get along with the signification of zerging, we can talk about strategies used in organized groups.

Good day.

Seen you make this comment before. However, when people are complaining about zergs they aren't talking about the 50 undisciplined players running en masse. Those are easy enough to kill. What they really hate are the 15 to 24 man group at the core that is healing, purging, steel tornadoing and meteoring through everything, including tower siege. Those are the groups farming keeps and towers. They are always a problem because they lock groups of people into trying to kill them while the rest of the map is lost.

We need a separate term for this type of thing as people always conflate this type of group with a fifty man force just running to an objective.

"Organized Pain Train".

The strategy goes back quite a ways, and 'Pain Train" has always been what it's called. It's a locomotive of hurt bearing down on you and is aiming to kill anything it runs through or over with PBAoE.

"FENGRUSH"

Cody · May 2015

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

tonemd wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

VagabondAngel wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

I used to share my strategies but I won't do it anymore.... blah blah blah

Your sarcasm detector must be off. I am in one of the biggest PvP guilds of EP on the EU server and I am well aware of the strategies, skills, and gear that make good players and groups, thank you. My rhetorical sarcasm was intended to imply that your assertion that spamming one or two skills in a stacked group is not the reason for their effectiveness is, in fact, utter nonsense. Do you understand that or are you going to attempt to patronise me some more?

You are the one who asked me to explain which strategies I was reffering to and after I took the time to explain a lil bit more what my point was, you defend yourself stating that you are part of a big guild and that you already know all of that.

Make up your mind and stop wasting my time.

I'm still curious about these 50 other factors to successful zerging. All you really explained was that you can't just slot steel tornado in soul shriven robes and expect to win. So....what are the other 49 factors?

In my book, a zerg = 30players or more. Like I said plenty of times in my last posts, I run between 12-16players group during offhours and a full group during primetime. I also discourage people who stack 30-40men together and I will be the first to spread out some place else when I see too many EPs next to me.

Once we get along with the signification of zerging, we can talk about strategies used in organized groups.

Good day.

Seen you make this comment before. However, when people are complaining about zergs they aren't talking about the 50 undisciplined players running en masse. Those are easy enough to kill. What they really hate are the 15 to 24 man group at the core that is healing, purging, steel tornadoing and meteoring through everything, including tower siege. Those are the groups farming keeps and towers. They are always a problem because they lock groups of people into trying to kill them while the rest of the map is lost.

We need a separate term for this type of thing as people always conflate this type of group with a fifty man force just running to an objective.

"Organized Pain Train".

The strategy goes back quite a ways, and 'Pain Train" has always been what it's called. It's a locomotive of hurt bearing down on you and is aiming to kill anything it runs through or over with PBAoE.

"FENGRUSH"

you forgot the #!!!!!!!!!!!

Juraigr · May 2015

pppontus wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler
Are you aware that every one of your changes to PvP since 1.6 has served to simply strengthen the people who stack and spam AOEs?
Are you aware that your game extremely heavily favours the largest possible groups?
Are you aware that the "unbalanced ultimate regen" of 1.5 was one of the only ways these large groups could be countered by smaller groups?
Are you aware that fire siege, magicka detonation, oil, meatbags and oil catapults are completely useless against large groups who have 20k+ shields from barriers and 4 people spamming purges?
Are you aware that average time to kill nowadays is nothing more than a few seconds, and that this is further driving people to hide in enormous groups?
Are you aware of the massive unbalance between Stamina and Magicka right now - where you can use traits to put your spell resistance massively above hardcap, use champion points to reduce both magic and elemental damage - where there are 0 such options for reducing physical damage?

And most importantly, are you going to actually do something about it or can I relay the message to all pvpers I know that are still hoping, that they might as well stop waiting and uninstall ESO already? I mean, as a leader of one of the largest EU guilds, honestly it sucks to see us lose such a massive amount of players every day - but I can't blame them and I will be following them soon enough if this continues.

I think all PvPers deserve a response to these questions. Thanks.

Seriously Zos fix the ultimate gain

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

so you feel 3 people should be able to wipe 50?

Yes if your group sucks then cya later I've done it before albeit not against 50 but 15-24 with 3 people

pppontus · May 2015

Surprise surprise, no note from ZOS about anything. Oh wait, it's about PvP.. as per usual then.

Too busy with articles about the newest fancy costumes I guess..

Another night of crap lagfights and lagtrains everywhere. You know it's bad when you quit at 9pm when you have the day off tomorrow.

Nivzruo_ESO · May 2015

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

Remove Aoes from the game.. they are just a gateway to poorly skilled play anyway. Keep siege as the only form of aoe.

All they need to do is limit the number of AoE abilities that a player can be hit by in any given second to 1. This makes zergball stacking less effective and forces players to actually do focus targetting and use abilities other than AoEing down players like trash mobs.

the lag from those type of checks would be horrific

Not if you know how to program. Similar calculations are already being done (like CC check etc).

Lag would actually be reduced if you removed the calculation to reduce damage when 6 targets or more are hit. This check would no longer be needed.

i think we have established ZOS has issues with coding...

Lmao, sad but true.

Valnas · May 2015

they could of just fixed negate first before throwing the game out the window. That was the real fuel to 'magicka zerg' imbalance in 1.5.

Garion · May 2015

Valnas wrote: »

they could of just fixed negate first before throwing the game out the window. That was the real fuel to 'magicka zerg' imbalance in 1.5.

I actually disagree. Negate was one of the few viable counters to zergs. Now it's been nerfed into oblivion we have virtually no ways to counter zergs apart from getting a pretty sizeable group up together and fight fire with fire.

Valnas · May 2015

the resource returns on negate allowed regenless builds to do 'sustained burst dmg'/

Erondil · May 2015

I still remember how NA peoples reacted months ago.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162918/steel-tornado-the-new-impulse

Varicite · May 2015

Erondil wrote: »

I still remember how NA peoples reacted months ago.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162918/steel-tornado-the-new-impulse

How is that any different than how people are reacting to it right now?

Erondil · May 2015

Varicite wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

I still remember how NA peoples reacted months ago.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162918/steel-tornado-the-new-impulse

How is that any different than how people are reacting to it right now?

Well are people in this thread saying its weak?

Varicite · May 2015

Erondil wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

I still remember how NA peoples reacted months ago.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162918/steel-tornado-the-new-impulse

How is that any different than how people are reacting to it right now?

Well are people in this thread saying its weak?

People in the other thread weren't saying its weak either....

Or do you mean "people" as in 1 person in over 140 posts?

Erondil · May 2015

Varicite wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

I still remember how NA peoples reacted months ago.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162918/steel-tornado-the-new-impulse

How is that any different than how people are reacting to it right now?

Well are people in this thread saying its weak?

People in the other thread weren't saying its weak either....

Or do you mean "people" as in 1 person in over 140 posts?

Yes I didnt use the good words. They said it was perfectly balanced and far from being aqns good as the old impulse, and that it would be stupid to nerf it.

Bashev · May 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

Remove Aoes from the game.. they are just a gateway to poorly skilled play anyway. Keep siege as the only form of aoe.

All they need to do is limit the number of AoE abilities that a player can be hit by in any given second to 1. This makes zergball stacking less effective and forces players to actually do focus targetting and use abilities other than AoEing down players like trash mobs.

This is and interesting idea. But then probably the AoE heals should work the same way. The bad part is that the number of the calculations will be increased and probably will bring more lag.

Cinbri · May 2015

Just 2 days ago i stayed inside outpost in front of main gate alt-tabbed, when tabbed back i was dead with recap - 5 steel tornados hitted me through gates, as enemy zerg cleaned maingates outside. It was such a LOL. Even walls won't save you against tornado zerg

Juraigr · May 2015

RIP pvp

pppontus · May 2015

Juraigr wrote: »

RIP pvp

RIP pvp for everyone above lvl 49 at least.. blackwater is still fun lol. Only 2 character slots left tho... if it's not fixed until then I guess I have to quit..

NukeAllTheThings · May 2015

pppontus wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler
Are you aware that every one of your changes to PvP since 1.6 has served to simply strengthen the people who stack and spam AOEs?
Are you aware that your game extremely heavily favours the largest possible groups?
Are you aware that the "unbalanced ultimate regen" of 1.5 was one of the only ways these large groups could be countered by smaller groups?
Are you aware that fire siege, magicka detonation, oil, meatbags and oil catapults are completely useless against large groups who have 20k+ shields from barriers and 4 people spamming purges?
Are you aware that average time to kill nowadays is nothing more than a few seconds, and that this is further driving people to hide in enormous groups?
Are you aware of the massive unbalance between Stamina and Magicka right now - where you can use traits to put your spell resistance massively above hardcap, use champion points to reduce both magic and elemental damage - where there are 0 such options for reducing physical damage?

Are you aware that if they were to go back to "unbalanced ultimate regen" they would be making changes that favor the largest groups possible? Going with crit based ultimate regen would mean that groups would have barrier up even more and ultimates firing 100% of the time. I see visions of 24 man perma batswarm, barrier, comet, steel tornado, sap, fear, impulse blobs of destruction. Sure, the smaller groups would be able to be effective against random PUG groups twice their size.....but they are effective against those groups today.

Tune TTK first and go from there, but going back to lightening fast ultimate regen is only giving big groups a much bigger advantage and will make them virtually unkillable....more than they are today

AhPook_Is_Here · May 2015

I would love to go back to the old ult generation system as long as it was stacked on top of the current one so tanks can still generate ult in PVE without having to tell a group to stand around while they healing springs them.

As to dps, i miss endless batswarm, and would love to have it back again.

Garion · May 2015

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

I would love to go back to the old ult generation system as long as it was stacked on top of the current one so tanks can still generate ult in PVE without having to tell a group to stand around while they healing springs them.

As to dps, i miss endless batswarm, and would love to have it back again.

Just make it so that blocking wih a shield generates ulti proportionate to incoming damage. No need for this light / heavy attack business.

Varicite · May 2015

Erondil wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

I still remember how NA peoples reacted months ago.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162918/steel-tornado-the-new-impulse

How is that any different than how people are reacting to it right now?

Well are people in this thread saying its weak?

People in the other thread weren't saying its weak either....

Or do you mean "people" as in 1 person in over 140 posts?

Yes I didnt use the good words. They said it was perfectly balanced and far from being aqns good as the old impulse, and that it would be stupid to nerf it.

Strange, I replied quite a bit to that thread, and the major consensus was that Steel Tornado was ALWAYS better than Impulse, and that the ONLY reason people used Impulse prior to 1.6 was that Impulse was unblockable, whereas every stam-based AoE was not.

So it made perfect sense to use the weaker AoE since it would end up doing more damage in the permablock meta that PvP was back then.

Now that ALL AoEs are blockable, it makes perfect sense to use Steel Tornado, the highest upfront damage AoE w/ the widest radius.

Impulse was NEVER a better AoE than Steel Tornado, it just went through block which made it more practical.

Erondil · May 2015

Varicite wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

I still remember how NA peoples reacted months ago.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162918/steel-tornado-the-new-impulse

How is that any different than how people are reacting to it right now?

Well are people in this thread saying its weak?

People in the other thread weren't saying its weak either....

Or do you mean "people" as in 1 person in over 140 posts?

Yes I didnt use the good words. They said it was perfectly balanced and far from being aqns good as the old impulse, and that it would be stupid to nerf it.

Strange, I replied quite a bit to that thread, and the major consensus was that Steel Tornado was ALWAYS better than Impulse, and that the ONLY reason people used Impulse prior to 1.6 was that Impulse was unblockable, whereas every stam-based AoE was not.

So it made perfect sense to use the weaker AoE since it would end up doing more damage in the permablock meta that PvP was back then.

Now that ALL AoEs are blockable, it makes perfect sense to use Steel Tornado, the highest upfront damage AoE w/ the widest radius.

Impulse was NEVER a better AoE than Steel Tornado, it just went through block which made it more practical.

Mmh I dont think we rode the same thread.

Armitas · May 2015

The 8.7k steel tornados through maim are my favorite. Nerf impulse, magikca too stronk.

Agrippa_Invisus · May 2015

Armitas wrote: »

The 8.7k steel tornados through maim are my favorite. Nerf impulse, magikca too stronk.

While Steel Tornado is very powerful, will no one mention the Bombard + Fear spam?

That stuff's worse than Talons back in its heyday. Hard to see graphic, hard hitting, very large cone area that gets hit, AND frequently employed by NBs who fear spam (off a different resource pool).

Gotta love it!

Oughash · May 2015

Considering how stronk Bombard and Steel Tornado are, why not reinstate the old impulse 8m radius with the original gfx?

Armitas · May 2015

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

The 8.7k steel tornados through maim are my favorite. Nerf impulse, magikca too stronk.

While Steel Tornado is very powerful, will no one mention the Bombard + Fear spam?

That stuff's worse than Talons back in its heyday. Hard to see graphic, hard hitting, very large cone area that gets hit, AND frequently employed by NBs who fear spam (off a different resource pool).

Gotta love it!

It's different when DK's dew it, because DK.

I swear there are people whose sole duty it is to spam bombard. Has anyone tried the reduce fear duration from CP? I kinda feel like it would be worthless. Might be better to have X% chance to negate a CC and apply the normal CC immunity after.