So the steel tornado zerg meta finally established.. that took a while!

pppontus · May 2015

So this is what those of us with some understanding of game mechanics said when the update released.

Today each and every zerg (I'm sure they call themselves something like bomb squads - lol btw) I've seen has converted to Stamina. The yellow 20+ zerg all spamming vigor and steel tornado, the red 60+ zerg spamming vigor and steel tornado. Every single one.

It has a MASSIVE radius, it does great damage, it isn't affected by the broken nirn trait (that has been broken for months and will continue, I'm sure, for months more) and here's the most fantastic thing about it: it still works once these groups have *** the servers so bad our weapons aren't even swapping.

GG ZOS, GG lagballs. I'm glad it took you two months to figure out so we could get just a little more laggy pvp before it all ended.

Sorry Zenimax, but when you wonder why your pvp players are in mass exodus - you better take a long hard look at what you did to deserve it.

AhPook_Is_Here · May 2015

2 hour and 16 min VDSA run? Ouch!

ginoboehm · May 2015

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

2 hour and 16 min VDSA run? Ouch!

that was before the changes to the raids every death counted toward the time it is actually not a bad time not many teams made it below 100min

pppontus · May 2015

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

2 hour and 16 min VDSA run? Ouch!

This was 1.5 when deaths counted and things weren't all faceroll DPS.. I miss those days.

AhPook_Is_Here · May 2015

pppontus wrote: »

show previous quotes

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

2 hour and 16 min VDSA run? Ouch!

This was 1.5 when deaths counted and things weren't all faceroll DPS.. I miss those days.

ya 30 min is a long run now!

pppontus · May 2015

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

show previous quotes

pppontus wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

2 hour and 16 min VDSA run? Ouch!

This was 1.5 when deaths counted and things weren't all faceroll DPS.. I miss those days.

ya 30 min is a long run now!

I guess. I can hardly be bothered with PvE anymore since I can only use my DK anyway bcuz 19K DPS or it's ***, hence the topic. But I guess since I can't really be bothered with PvP either.. well. If it wasn't for my guild I'd have quit months ago, and after having the same discussion with them.. well, turns out most people would have. <- edit: not counting the hundreds and hundreds who already have.

So ZOS, might wanna think about how long you actually believe you will have players left with a *** unrewarding PVE endgame and a broken laggy PVP endgame - both of which has had no new content for half a year up to over a year.

I'd strongly recommend anyone interested in buying, not to do so, which is sad because if there was just something tiny like ONE new trial and battlegrounds or any form of instanced working PvP - I'd have given it 11/10.

badmojo · May 2015

So... even if they nerf steel tornado, will that change what these groups are doing? Won't they just pick up the next best AOE and continue doing what they're doing? Steel tornado, impulse, vigor, these are not the problems, it's the stacking a bunch of players together and using purge to negate everything that is the real problem. The AOE increase, the siege buff, these were both supposed to encourage groups to spread out, but purge makes both ineffective.

Nerf purge, not the AOEs.

pppontus · May 2015

badmojo wrote: »

So... even if they nerf steel tornado, will that change what these groups are doing? Won't they just pick up the next best AOE and continue doing what they're doing? Steel tornado, impulse, vigor, these are not the problems, it's the stacking a bunch of players together and using purge to negate everything that is the real problem. The AOE increase, the siege buff, these were both supposed to encourage groups to spread out, but purge makes both ineffective.

Nerf purge, not the AOEs.

Well, I'll say this - the lag from the groups using tornado is about 100x worse than the impulse groups, I was at bleakers with 999+ when they were fighting at chalman, and the groups weren't even that big. Plus it ignores lag, so when everything else doesn't work.. It still wins fights for you.

I'm not even gonna bother talking about balance anymore, until all this crap is fixed - what does it matter? I was merely commenting that it took so long to figure out when it's so obvious that ST Zerg > Impulse Zerg.

Agrippa_Invisus · May 2015

badmojo wrote: »

So... even if they nerf steel tornado, will that change what these groups are doing? Won't they just pick up the next best AOE and continue doing what they're doing? Steel tornado, impulse, vigor, these are not the problems, it's the stacking a bunch of players together and using purge to negate everything that is the real problem. The AOE increase, the siege buff, these were both supposed to encourage groups to spread out, but purge makes both ineffective.

Nerf purge, not the AOEs.

Nerf Tornado and tomorrow it's Bombard.

frozywozy · May 2015

pppontus wrote: »

show previous quotes

badmojo wrote: »

So... even if they nerf steel tornado, will that change what these groups are doing? Won't they just pick up the next best AOE and continue doing what they're doing? Steel tornado, impulse, vigor, these are not the problems, it's the stacking a bunch of players together and using purge to negate everything that is the real problem. The AOE increase, the siege buff, these were both supposed to encourage groups to spread out, but purge makes both ineffective.

Nerf purge, not the AOEs.

Well, I'll say this - the lag from the groups using tornado is about 100x worse than the impulse groups, I was at bleakers with 999+ when they were fighting at chalman, and the groups weren't even that big. Plus it ignores lag, so when everything else doesn't work.. It still wins fights for you.

I'm not even gonna bother talking about balance anymore, until all this crap is fixed - what does it matter? I was merely commenting that it took so long to figure out when it's so obvious that ST Zerg > Impulse Zerg.

The problem is not coming from the skill itself (Steel tornado VS Impulse) but the new AOE cap system and other incremental patches which decrease performances even more once in a while.

Btw, I don't think that steel tornado is OP, nirnhoded is and will be fixed eventually.

badmojo · May 2015

pppontus wrote: »

show previous quotes

badmojo wrote: »

So... even if they nerf steel tornado, will that change what these groups are doing? Won't they just pick up the next best AOE and continue doing what they're doing? Steel tornado, impulse, vigor, these are not the problems, it's the stacking a bunch of players together and using purge to negate everything that is the real problem. The AOE increase, the siege buff, these were both supposed to encourage groups to spread out, but purge makes both ineffective.

Nerf purge, not the AOEs.

Well, I'll say this - the lag from the groups using tornado is about 100x worse than the impulse groups, I was at bleakers with 999+ when they were fighting at chalman, and the groups weren't even that big. Plus it ignores lag, so when everything else doesn't work.. It still wins fights for you.

I'm not even gonna bother talking about balance anymore, until all this crap is fixed - what does it matter? I was merely commenting that it took so long to figure out when it's so obvious that ST Zerg > Impulse Zerg.

You're too concerned with the effects of the problem. The problem isn't spamming ST, it's that grouping up is still not only viable, but probably the safest strategy, therefore the smart strategy, albeit a boring one in my opinion.

My point is, until they make their counters to tight groups effective, this will always be a problem. They could remove every AOE in the game and players would just run around in large tight groups and focus individuals, as a group.

These zerg groups don't really care to implement the best skills and builds as soon as they come out, because anything they use works.

Juraigr · May 2015

Bring back 1.5

Erock25 · May 2015

pppontus wrote: »

show previous quotes

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

2 hour and 16 min VDSA run? Ouch!

This was 1.5 when deaths counted and things weren't all faceroll DPS.. I miss those days.

ya 30 min is a long run now!

I guess. I can hardly be bothered with PvE anymore since I can only use my DK anyway bcuz 19K DPS or it's ***, hence the topic..

So all that 'Sorc is great for DPS' lobbying you did on PTS forums was wrong?

AhPook_Is_Here · May 2015

pppontus wrote: »

show previous quotes

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

2 hour and 16 min VDSA run? Ouch!

This was 1.5 when deaths counted and things weren't all faceroll DPS.. I miss those days.

ya 30 min is a long run now!

I guess. I can hardly be bothered with PvE anymore since I can only use my DK anyway bcuz 19K DPS or it's ***, hence the topic. But I guess since I can't really be bothered with PvP either.. well. If it wasn't for my guild I'd have quit months ago, and after having the same discussion with them.. well, turns out most people would have. <- edit: not counting the hundreds and hundreds who already have.

So ZOS, might wanna think about how long you actually believe you will have players left with a *** unrewarding PVE endgame and a broken laggy PVP endgame - both of which has had no new content for half a year up to over a year.

I'd strongly recommend anyone interested in buying, not to do so, which is sad because if there was just something tiny like ONE new trial and battlegrounds or any form of instanced working PvP - I'd have given it 11/10.

Ya I know that feel. Hey don't say there is no content, golden eye guar incoming!

AhPook_Is_Here · May 2015

badmojo wrote: »

So... even if they nerf steel tornado, will that change what these groups are doing? Won't they just pick up the next best AOE and continue doing what they're doing? Steel tornado, impulse, vigor, these are not the problems, it's the stacking a bunch of players together and using purge to negate everything that is the real problem. The AOE increase, the siege buff, these were both supposed to encourage groups to spread out, but purge makes both ineffective.

Nerf purge, not the AOEs.

Nobody likes to say the player collision phrase, but you can't stack if you are colliding, just sayin! I'm sure there would be more messaging required between client and server and who knows if the sever could even deal. It did work in Warhammer, and when they put it in place it made it a better game.

frozywozy · May 2015

badmojo wrote: »

show previous quotes

pppontus wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

So... even if they nerf steel tornado, will that change what these groups are doing? Won't they just pick up the next best AOE and continue doing what they're doing? Steel tornado, impulse, vigor, these are not the problems, it's the stacking a bunch of players together and using purge to negate everything that is the real problem. The AOE increase, the siege buff, these were both supposed to encourage groups to spread out, but purge makes both ineffective.

Nerf purge, not the AOEs.

Well, I'll say this - the lag from the groups using tornado is about 100x worse than the impulse groups, I was at bleakers with 999+ when they were fighting at chalman, and the groups weren't even that big. Plus it ignores lag, so when everything else doesn't work.. It still wins fights for you.

I'm not even gonna bother talking about balance anymore, until all this crap is fixed - what does it matter? I was merely commenting that it took so long to figure out when it's so obvious that ST Zerg > Impulse Zerg.

You're too concerned with the effects of the problem. The problem isn't spamming ST, it's that grouping up is still not only viable, but probably the safest strategy, therefore the smart strategy, albeit a boring one in my opinion.

My point is, until they make their counters to tight groups effective, this will always be a problem. They could remove every AOE in the game and players would just run around in large tight groups and focus individuals, as a group.

These zerg groups don't really care to implement the best skills and builds as soon as they come out, because anything they use works.

First of all, people play in groups because this is a multi-player game and that they are having more fun sharing their playtime with other fellow guildies. Whoever doesn't agree with this should go back to Skyrim.

Secondly, if you still think that any large group of 16+ can spam any ability to be successful in group VS group play, you have alot to learn still. Most people who complain about "trains" and "zerg" have never experienced a successful one themselves to comment about it.

pppontus · May 2015

Erock25 wrote: »

show previous quotes

pppontus wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

2 hour and 16 min VDSA run? Ouch!

This was 1.5 when deaths counted and things weren't all faceroll DPS.. I miss those days.

ya 30 min is a long run now!

I guess. I can hardly be bothered with PvE anymore since I can only use my DK anyway bcuz 19K DPS or it's ***, hence the topic..

So all that 'Sorc is great for DPS' lobbying you did on PTS forums was wrong?

In hindsight yes, look at the Silks of the Sun set. DKs with that set make all other classes and specs irrelevant. Hence why I always said it was useless to argue at that point because Sorcs now do ~15K as opposed to 10K but meanwhile DKs have gone to 19+. I happily admit my prediction was wrong, but my observations as they were at that point, I still stand by.

Juraigr wrote: »

Bring back 1.5

Yes pls.

badmojo wrote: »

show previous quotes

pppontus wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

So... even if they nerf steel tornado, will that change what these groups are doing? Won't they just pick up the next best AOE and continue doing what they're doing? Steel tornado, impulse, vigor, these are not the problems, it's the stacking a bunch of players together and using purge to negate everything that is the real problem. The AOE increase, the siege buff, these were both supposed to encourage groups to spread out, but purge makes both ineffective.

Nerf purge, not the AOEs.

Well, I'll say this - the lag from the groups using tornado is about 100x worse than the impulse groups, I was at bleakers with 999+ when they were fighting at chalman, and the groups weren't even that big. Plus it ignores lag, so when everything else doesn't work.. It still wins fights for you.

I'm not even gonna bother talking about balance anymore, until all this crap is fixed - what does it matter? I was merely commenting that it took so long to figure out when it's so obvious that ST Zerg > Impulse Zerg.

You're too concerned with the effects of the problem. The problem isn't spamming ST, it's that grouping up is still not only viable, but probably the safest strategy, therefore the smart strategy, albeit a boring one in my opinion.

My point is, until they make their counters to tight groups effective, this will always be a problem. They could remove every AOE in the game and players would just run around in large tight groups and focus individuals, as a group.

These zerg groups don't really care to implement the best skills and builds as soon as they come out, because anything they use works.

I get what you mean, and to be clear, I didn't mean nerf steel tornado either. I don't care about a specific skill when the game is broken, this was just a display of how our players take a broken game and simply make it even more broken.

As for the actual solutions, I probably won't be around for long enough for any potential solutions to come, so I'll leave that up to someone else.

Nivzruo_ESO · May 2015

Remove Aoes from the game.. they are just a gateway to poorly skilled play anyway. Keep siege as the only form of aoe.

pppontus · May 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

show previous quotes

badmojo wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

So... even if they nerf steel tornado, will that change what these groups are doing? Won't they just pick up the next best AOE and continue doing what they're doing? Steel tornado, impulse, vigor, these are not the problems, it's the stacking a bunch of players together and using purge to negate everything that is the real problem. The AOE increase, the siege buff, these were both supposed to encourage groups to spread out, but purge makes both ineffective.

Nerf purge, not the AOEs.

Well, I'll say this - the lag from the groups using tornado is about 100x worse than the impulse groups, I was at bleakers with 999+ when they were fighting at chalman, and the groups weren't even that big. Plus it ignores lag, so when everything else doesn't work.. It still wins fights for you.

I'm not even gonna bother talking about balance anymore, until all this crap is fixed - what does it matter? I was merely commenting that it took so long to figure out when it's so obvious that ST Zerg > Impulse Zerg.

You're too concerned with the effects of the problem. The problem isn't spamming ST, it's that grouping up is still not only viable, but probably the safest strategy, therefore the smart strategy, albeit a boring one in my opinion.

My point is, until they make their counters to tight groups effective, this will always be a problem. They could remove every AOE in the game and players would just run around in large tight groups and focus individuals, as a group.

These zerg groups don't really care to implement the best skills and builds as soon as they come out, because anything they use works.

First of all, people play in groups because this is a multi-player game and that they are having more fun sharing their playtime with other fellow guildies. Whoever doesn't agree with this should go back to Skyrim.

Secondly, if you still think that any large group of 16+ can spam any ability to be successful in group VS group play, you have alot to learn still. Most people who complain about "trains" and "zerg" have never experienced a successful one themselves to comment about it.

If your idea of fun is get 1-4 groups of 24 to all run stacked on top of each other alternating vigor and steel tornado with 999+ ping and kidding yourself that you aren't the reason for the lag, just give me battlegrounds so I can stay away from you forever. I promise I will never complain and you can have cyrodiil for yourself, 100%.

Ezareth · May 2015

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

Remove Aoes from the game.. they are just a gateway to poorly skilled play anyway. Keep siege as the only form of aoe.

All they need to do is limit the number of AoE abilities that a player can be hit by in any given second to 1. This makes zergball stacking less effective and forces players to actually do focus targetting and use abilities other than AoEing down players like trash mobs.

frozywozy · May 2015

pppontus wrote: »

show previous quotes

frozywozy wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

So... even if they nerf steel tornado, will that change what these groups are doing? Won't they just pick up the next best AOE and continue doing what they're doing? Steel tornado, impulse, vigor, these are not the problems, it's the stacking a bunch of players together and using purge to negate everything that is the real problem. The AOE increase, the siege buff, these were both supposed to encourage groups to spread out, but purge makes both ineffective.

Nerf purge, not the AOEs.

Well, I'll say this - the lag from the groups using tornado is about 100x worse than the impulse groups, I was at bleakers with 999+ when they were fighting at chalman, and the groups weren't even that big. Plus it ignores lag, so when everything else doesn't work.. It still wins fights for you.

I'm not even gonna bother talking about balance anymore, until all this crap is fixed - what does it matter? I was merely commenting that it took so long to figure out when it's so obvious that ST Zerg > Impulse Zerg.

You're too concerned with the effects of the problem. The problem isn't spamming ST, it's that grouping up is still not only viable, but probably the safest strategy, therefore the smart strategy, albeit a boring one in my opinion.

My point is, until they make their counters to tight groups effective, this will always be a problem. They could remove every AOE in the game and players would just run around in large tight groups and focus individuals, as a group.

These zerg groups don't really care to implement the best skills and builds as soon as they come out, because anything they use works.

First of all, people play in groups because this is a multi-player game and that they are having more fun sharing their playtime with other fellow guildies. Whoever doesn't agree with this should go back to Skyrim.

Secondly, if you still think that any large group of 16+ can spam any ability to be successful in group VS group play, you have alot to learn still. Most people who complain about "trains" and "zerg" have never experienced a successful one themselves to comment about it.

If your idea of fun is get 1-4 groups of 24 to all run stacked on top of each other alternating vigor and steel tornado with 999+ ping and kidding yourself that you aren't the reason for the lag, just give me battlegrounds so I can stay away from you forever. I promise I will never complain and you can have cyrodiil for yourself, 100%.

This is exactly what I mentioned in my post. People like you will claim that a 20men group only spam this or that skill when in reality it's 50 other factors which make the group successful. Keep thinking you're right. I'll keep running a 20men group and kill you until you try it yourself and realize that it is not as easy as slotting impulse or steel tornado on your 10 skill slots.

Edit : /sadface - you play on EU.

pppontus · May 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

show previous quotes

pppontus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

So... even if they nerf steel tornado, will that change what these groups are doing? Won't they just pick up the next best AOE and continue doing what they're doing? Steel tornado, impulse, vigor, these are not the problems, it's the stacking a bunch of players together and using purge to negate everything that is the real problem. The AOE increase, the siege buff, these were both supposed to encourage groups to spread out, but purge makes both ineffective.

Nerf purge, not the AOEs.

Well, I'll say this - the lag from the groups using tornado is about 100x worse than the impulse groups, I was at bleakers with 999+ when they were fighting at chalman, and the groups weren't even that big. Plus it ignores lag, so when everything else doesn't work.. It still wins fights for you.

I'm not even gonna bother talking about balance anymore, until all this crap is fixed - what does it matter? I was merely commenting that it took so long to figure out when it's so obvious that ST Zerg > Impulse Zerg.

You're too concerned with the effects of the problem. The problem isn't spamming ST, it's that grouping up is still not only viable, but probably the safest strategy, therefore the smart strategy, albeit a boring one in my opinion.

My point is, until they make their counters to tight groups effective, this will always be a problem. They could remove every AOE in the game and players would just run around in large tight groups and focus individuals, as a group.

These zerg groups don't really care to implement the best skills and builds as soon as they come out, because anything they use works.

First of all, people play in groups because this is a multi-player game and that they are having more fun sharing their playtime with other fellow guildies. Whoever doesn't agree with this should go back to Skyrim.

Secondly, if you still think that any large group of 16+ can spam any ability to be successful in group VS group play, you have alot to learn still. Most people who complain about "trains" and "zerg" have never experienced a successful one themselves to comment about it.

If your idea of fun is get 1-4 groups of 24 to all run stacked on top of each other alternating vigor and steel tornado with 999+ ping and kidding yourself that you aren't the reason for the lag, just give me battlegrounds so I can stay away from you forever. I promise I will never complain and you can have cyrodiil for yourself, 100%.

This is exactly what I mentioned in my post. People like you will claim that a 20men group does only spam this or that skill when in reality it's 50 other factors which make the group successful. Keep thinking you're right. I'll keep running a 20men group and kill you no matter what you think. lol

Edit : /sadface - you play on EU.

Don't kid yourself, because you also use purges, barriers, rapids, proxy det, caltrops, siege, orbs and combat prayers doesn't make you in any way unique.

If you like that style of play and enjoy lagging it up for everyone, go ahead, meanwhile I'd like somewhere to play where actual player skill matters. I don't enjoy being a barriermonkey, sorry.

At least guys like you come with their 60 men zergs to defend against my 4 man, getting trolled so badly they lose keeps to an alliance with half their population. My last little piece of enjoyment in this game, trolling the lag balls. xD

frozywozy · May 2015

pppontus wrote: »

show previous quotes

frozywozy wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

So... even if they nerf steel tornado, will that change what these groups are doing? Won't they just pick up the next best AOE and continue doing what they're doing? Steel tornado, impulse, vigor, these are not the problems, it's the stacking a bunch of players together and using purge to negate everything that is the real problem. The AOE increase, the siege buff, these were both supposed to encourage groups to spread out, but purge makes both ineffective.

Nerf purge, not the AOEs.

Well, I'll say this - the lag from the groups using tornado is about 100x worse than the impulse groups, I was at bleakers with 999+ when they were fighting at chalman, and the groups weren't even that big. Plus it ignores lag, so when everything else doesn't work.. It still wins fights for you.

I'm not even gonna bother talking about balance anymore, until all this crap is fixed - what does it matter? I was merely commenting that it took so long to figure out when it's so obvious that ST Zerg > Impulse Zerg.

You're too concerned with the effects of the problem. The problem isn't spamming ST, it's that grouping up is still not only viable, but probably the safest strategy, therefore the smart strategy, albeit a boring one in my opinion.

My point is, until they make their counters to tight groups effective, this will always be a problem. They could remove every AOE in the game and players would just run around in large tight groups and focus individuals, as a group.

These zerg groups don't really care to implement the best skills and builds as soon as they come out, because anything they use works.

First of all, people play in groups because this is a multi-player game and that they are having more fun sharing their playtime with other fellow guildies. Whoever doesn't agree with this should go back to Skyrim.

Secondly, if you still think that any large group of 16+ can spam any ability to be successful in group VS group play, you have alot to learn still. Most people who complain about "trains" and "zerg" have never experienced a successful one themselves to comment about it.

If your idea of fun is get 1-4 groups of 24 to all run stacked on top of each other alternating vigor and steel tornado with 999+ ping and kidding yourself that you aren't the reason for the lag, just give me battlegrounds so I can stay away from you forever. I promise I will never complain and you can have cyrodiil for yourself, 100%.

This is exactly what I mentioned in my post. People like you will claim that a 20men group does only spam this or that skill when in reality it's 50 other factors which make the group successful. Keep thinking you're right. I'll keep running a 20men group and kill you no matter what you think. lol

Edit : /sadface - you play on EU.

Don't kid yourself, because you also use purges, barriers, rapids, proxy det, caltrops, siege, orbs and combat prayers doesn't make you in any way unique.

If you like that style of play and enjoy lagging it up for everyone, go ahead, meanwhile I'd like somewhere to play where actual player skill matters. I don't enjoy being a barriermonkey, sorry.

At least guys like you come with their 60 men zergs to defend against my 4 man, getting trolled so badly they lose keeps to an alliance with half their population. My last little piece of enjoyment in this game, trolling the lag balls. xD

No, I run a 12-20men group which usually gets full at primetime.

pppontus · May 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

show previous quotes

pppontus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

So... even if they nerf steel tornado, will that change what these groups are doing? Won't they just pick up the next best AOE and continue doing what they're doing? Steel tornado, impulse, vigor, these are not the problems, it's the stacking a bunch of players together and using purge to negate everything that is the real problem. The AOE increase, the siege buff, these were both supposed to encourage groups to spread out, but purge makes both ineffective.

Nerf purge, not the AOEs.

Well, I'll say this - the lag from the groups using tornado is about 100x worse than the impulse groups, I was at bleakers with 999+ when they were fighting at chalman, and the groups weren't even that big. Plus it ignores lag, so when everything else doesn't work.. It still wins fights for you.

I'm not even gonna bother talking about balance anymore, until all this crap is fixed - what does it matter? I was merely commenting that it took so long to figure out when it's so obvious that ST Zerg > Impulse Zerg.

You're too concerned with the effects of the problem. The problem isn't spamming ST, it's that grouping up is still not only viable, but probably the safest strategy, therefore the smart strategy, albeit a boring one in my opinion.

My point is, until they make their counters to tight groups effective, this will always be a problem. They could remove every AOE in the game and players would just run around in large tight groups and focus individuals, as a group.

These zerg groups don't really care to implement the best skills and builds as soon as they come out, because anything they use works.

First of all, people play in groups because this is a multi-player game and that they are having more fun sharing their playtime with other fellow guildies. Whoever doesn't agree with this should go back to Skyrim.

Secondly, if you still think that any large group of 16+ can spam any ability to be successful in group VS group play, you have alot to learn still. Most people who complain about "trains" and "zerg" have never experienced a successful one themselves to comment about it.

If your idea of fun is get 1-4 groups of 24 to all run stacked on top of each other alternating vigor and steel tornado with 999+ ping and kidding yourself that you aren't the reason for the lag, just give me battlegrounds so I can stay away from you forever. I promise I will never complain and you can have cyrodiil for yourself, 100%.

This is exactly what I mentioned in my post. People like you will claim that a 20men group does only spam this or that skill when in reality it's 50 other factors which make the group successful. Keep thinking you're right. I'll keep running a 20men group and kill you no matter what you think. lol

Edit : /sadface - you play on EU.

Don't kid yourself, because you also use purges, barriers, rapids, proxy det, caltrops, siege, orbs and combat prayers doesn't make you in any way unique.

If you like that style of play and enjoy lagging it up for everyone, go ahead, meanwhile I'd like somewhere to play where actual player skill matters. I don't enjoy being a barriermonkey, sorry.

At least guys like you come with their 60 men zergs to defend against my 4 man, getting trolled so badly they lose keeps to an alliance with half their population. My last little piece of enjoyment in this game, trolling the lag balls. xD

No, I run a 12-20men group which usually gets full at primetime.

You know, you didn't have to take offense when I said "if your idea of fun is".

I don't really care about whatever group/faction/etc, all the lagballs say they aren't lagballs and blame the other lagball instead.

I just want somewhere else to pvp so they can be alone in cyrodiil and fight their oh so enjoyable lagbattles without me. Or give us a way to fight them lag free where we can counter them by individual skill instead of numbers, like good old 1.5...

VagabondAngel · May 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

People like you will claim that a 20men group only spam this or that skill when in reality it's 50 other factors which make the group successful.

Care to list at least some of those 50 other factors? And I don't mean the 50 randoms following the group spamming vigor and steel tornado.

frozywozy · May 2015

pppontus wrote: »

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frozywozy wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

So... even if they nerf steel tornado, will that change what these groups are doing? Won't they just pick up the next best AOE and continue doing what they're doing? Steel tornado, impulse, vigor, these are not the problems, it's the stacking a bunch of players together and using purge to negate everything that is the real problem. The AOE increase, the siege buff, these were both supposed to encourage groups to spread out, but purge makes both ineffective.

Nerf purge, not the AOEs.

Well, I'll say this - the lag from the groups using tornado is about 100x worse than the impulse groups, I was at bleakers with 999+ when they were fighting at chalman, and the groups weren't even that big. Plus it ignores lag, so when everything else doesn't work.. It still wins fights for you.

I'm not even gonna bother talking about balance anymore, until all this crap is fixed - what does it matter? I was merely commenting that it took so long to figure out when it's so obvious that ST Zerg > Impulse Zerg.

You're too concerned with the effects of the problem. The problem isn't spamming ST, it's that grouping up is still not only viable, but probably the safest strategy, therefore the smart strategy, albeit a boring one in my opinion.

My point is, until they make their counters to tight groups effective, this will always be a problem. They could remove every AOE in the game and players would just run around in large tight groups and focus individuals, as a group.

These zerg groups don't really care to implement the best skills and builds as soon as they come out, because anything they use works.

First of all, people play in groups because this is a multi-player game and that they are having more fun sharing their playtime with other fellow guildies. Whoever doesn't agree with this should go back to Skyrim.

Secondly, if you still think that any large group of 16+ can spam any ability to be successful in group VS group play, you have alot to learn still. Most people who complain about "trains" and "zerg" have never experienced a successful one themselves to comment about it.

If your idea of fun is get 1-4 groups of 24 to all run stacked on top of each other alternating vigor and steel tornado with 999+ ping and kidding yourself that you aren't the reason for the lag, just give me battlegrounds so I can stay away from you forever. I promise I will never complain and you can have cyrodiil for yourself, 100%.

This is exactly what I mentioned in my post. People like you will claim that a 20men group does only spam this or that skill when in reality it's 50 other factors which make the group successful. Keep thinking you're right. I'll keep running a 20men group and kill you no matter what you think. lol

Edit : /sadface - you play on EU.

Don't kid yourself, because you also use purges, barriers, rapids, proxy det, caltrops, siege, orbs and combat prayers doesn't make you in any way unique.

If you like that style of play and enjoy lagging it up for everyone, go ahead, meanwhile I'd like somewhere to play where actual player skill matters. I don't enjoy being a barriermonkey, sorry.

At least guys like you come with their 60 men zergs to defend against my 4 man, getting trolled so badly they lose keeps to an alliance with half their population. My last little piece of enjoyment in this game, trolling the lag balls. xD

No, I run a 12-20men group which usually gets full at primetime.

You know, you didn't have to take offense when I said "if your idea of fun is".

I don't really care about whatever group/faction/etc, all the lagballs say they aren't lagballs and blame the other lagball instead.

I just want somewhere else to pvp so they can be alone in cyrodiil and fight their oh so enjoyable lagbattles without me. Or give us a way to fight them lag free where we can counter them by individual skill instead of numbers, like good old 1.5...

I usually am the first to aks group leaders of any factions to unstack and to try to get some coordination going with the other groups going so people don't all hit the same target at the same time and create huge performance issues. I am also, like I mentioned in other threads regarding population balances, the first who will switch to any campaign where my faction need me the most to unstack large zerg balls you have seen in Thornblade 3-4 for example. I don't blame anyone for causing the lag. People who use AOE abilities don't help the performances but at that point, it's ZOS responsability to find a solution. They either remove all AOE abilities, change the AOE cap system, develop small instances PvP or code the game engine from the beginning to fix their own mistakes. This has been said times in times again in other posts, I just repeated it for your own sake.

VagabondAngel wrote: »

show previous quotes

frozywozy wrote: »

People like you will claim that a 20men group only spam this or that skill when in reality it's 50 other factors which make the group successful.

Care to list at least some of those 50 other factors? And I don't mean the 50 randoms following the group spamming vigor and steel tornado.

I used to share my strategies but I won't do it anymore. Too many players tend to copy any playstyle they see. My best advice if you are curious is to find one of the major guild out there and join their group, see how it goes.

My group takes at least 15-30mins just to setup before every primetime and we take another 5mins to adjust our strategies before every major engagement.

We also have different strategies to attack another group just like a boxer would do to knock his opponent down.

I won't even talk about the specific ways your character must be speced with gear, champion points and abilities to make it all work as a whole. I'm just going to conclude saying that if you think large groups only have to spam vigor + steel tornado to win, you probably weren't first in your mathematics classes and you probably have no idea what theory crafting is.

Ifthir_ESO · May 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

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Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

Remove Aoes from the game.. they are just a gateway to poorly skilled play anyway. Keep siege as the only form of aoe.

All they need to do is limit the number of AoE abilities that a player can be hit by in any given second to 1. This makes zergball stacking less effective and forces players to actually do focus targetting and use abilities other than AoEing down players like trash mobs.

the lag from those type of checks would be horrific

Xsorus · May 2015

Cap Vigor/Barrier at 6 like every other Heal
Nerf Purge (By increasing Cost or whatever)
Make Oil Catapult Unpurgeable Again
Increase Meat Ball Catapult Heal Debuff back to 50%

Done and Done

eliisra · May 2015

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

Remove Aoes from the game.. they are just a gateway to poorly skilled play anyway. Keep siege as the only form of aoe.

Even more reason to blob if no AoE, can just step behind other players and never get hit. No one would die in large scale PvP, if this game was limited to single target. To hard to focus single players inside a blob, due to sluggish target system. Even if you lock target, you end up hitting something else.

Topic: Steel Tornado is indeed the new Impulse. Talking from experience. Skill sorting in your average(trying to be organized) raid these days always goes:

Type + how many blah-blahPurgeBarrier and Steel Tornado do we have?

The radius allows you to cover entire flag-rooms. Also being stamina based, you wont suffer penalty from nirn-stackers and Harness Magicka users. Impulse on the other hand is totally *** now, I dont really care, always felt like a filthy reject using it.

Ezareth · May 2015

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Ezareth wrote: »

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

Remove Aoes from the game.. they are just a gateway to poorly skilled play anyway. Keep siege as the only form of aoe.

All they need to do is limit the number of AoE abilities that a player can be hit by in any given second to 1. This makes zergball stacking less effective and forces players to actually do focus targetting and use abilities other than AoEing down players like trash mobs.

the lag from those type of checks would be horrific

Not if you know how to program. Similar calculations are already being done (like CC check etc).

Lag would actually be reduced if you removed the calculation to reduce damage when 6 targets or more are hit. This check would no longer be needed.

Hypertionb14_ESO · May 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

show previous quotes

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

Remove Aoes from the game.. they are just a gateway to poorly skilled play anyway. Keep siege as the only form of aoe.

All they need to do is limit the number of AoE abilities that a player can be hit by in any given second to 1. This makes zergball stacking less effective and forces players to actually do focus targetting and use abilities other than AoEing down players like trash mobs.

the lag from those type of checks would be horrific

Not if you know how to program. Similar calculations are already being done (like CC check etc).

Lag would actually be reduced if you removed the calculation to reduce damage when 6 targets or more are hit. This check would no longer be needed.

i think we have established ZOS has issues with coding...