So the steel tornado zerg meta finally established.. that took a while!

Yolokin_Swagonborn · May 2015

I knew the batnado would arrive.

RIP Batpulse. RIP Batwall. Long live Batnado!

Totally regretting not creating a Bosmer templar or NB named Batnado.

Oughash · May 2015

Juraigr wrote: »

Bring back 1.5

This.

Maulkin · May 2015

I called it a month back. People were like "at least it's not impulse". Happy to replace one OP skill with the other.

This was yesterday for me. Typical flag fight these days.

VagabondAngel · May 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

I used to share my strategies but I won't do it anymore.... blah blah blah

Your sarcasm detector must be off. I am in one of the biggest PvP guilds of EP on the EU server and I am well aware of the strategies, skills, and gear that make good players and groups, thank you. My rhetorical sarcasm was intended to imply that your assertion that spamming one or two skills in a stacked group is not the reason for their effectiveness is, in fact, utter nonsense. Do you understand that or are you going to attempt to patronise me some more?

Varicite · May 2015

pppontus wrote: »

So this is what those of us with some understanding of game mechanics said when the update released.

Today each and every zerg (I'm sure they call themselves something like bomb squads - lol btw) I've seen has converted to Stamina. The yellow 20+ zerg all spamming vigor and steel tornado, the red 60+ zerg spamming vigor and steel tornado. Every single one.

It has a MASSIVE radius, it does great damage, it isn't affected by the broken nirn trait (that has been broken for months and will continue, I'm sure, for months more) and here's the most fantastic thing about it: it still works once these groups have *** the servers so bad our weapons aren't even swapping.

GG ZOS, GG lagballs. I'm glad it took you two months to figure out so we could get just a little more laggy pvp before it all ended.

Sorry Zenimax, but when you wonder why your pvp players are in mass exodus - you better take a long hard look at what you did to deserve it.

This is somehow different than the Impulse trains that have been running around since launch?

It's bad now because they're using stamina instead of magicka?

Or are we just supposed to be surprised that in a PvP game largely focused on zerging and overwhelming numbers, that people are going to use the best AoE and spam it?

Or are we just mad that the best AoE was never and still isn't Impulse now that all AoEs are blockable?

kijima · May 2015

WTB: ESO PvP - Pre lighting patch

Agrippa_Invisus · May 2015

kijima wrote: »

WTB: ESO PvP - Pre lighting patch

Game balance was just as terrible then, it was performance that was better.

When the devs decided to not increase HP pools commensurate to everything else, they really made a huge mistake in regards to TTK/TTL.

I'm also of the opinion that some of the damage calculations for some of the high damage attacks (like WB) really need revision.

badmojo · May 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

So... even if they nerf steel tornado, will that change what these groups are doing? Won't they just pick up the next best AOE and continue doing what they're doing? Steel tornado, impulse, vigor, these are not the problems, it's the stacking a bunch of players together and using purge to negate everything that is the real problem. The AOE increase, the siege buff, these were both supposed to encourage groups to spread out, but purge makes both ineffective.

Nerf purge, not the AOEs.

Well, I'll say this - the lag from the groups using tornado is about 100x worse than the impulse groups, I was at bleakers with 999+ when they were fighting at chalman, and the groups weren't even that big. Plus it ignores lag, so when everything else doesn't work.. It still wins fights for you.

I'm not even gonna bother talking about balance anymore, until all this crap is fixed - what does it matter? I was merely commenting that it took so long to figure out when it's so obvious that ST Zerg > Impulse Zerg.

You're too concerned with the effects of the problem. The problem isn't spamming ST, it's that grouping up is still not only viable, but probably the safest strategy, therefore the smart strategy, albeit a boring one in my opinion.

My point is, until they make their counters to tight groups effective, this will always be a problem. They could remove every AOE in the game and players would just run around in large tight groups and focus individuals, as a group.

These zerg groups don't really care to implement the best skills and builds as soon as they come out, because anything they use works.

First of all, people play in groups because this is a multi-player game and that they are having more fun sharing their playtime with other fellow guildies. Whoever doesn't agree with this should go back to Skyrim.

Secondly, if you still think that any large group of 16+ can spam any ability to be successful in group VS group play, you have alot to learn still. Most people who complain about "trains" and "zerg" have never experienced a successful one themselves to comment about it.

Whoa, calm your horses. I'm not complaining about people playing in groups. I'm just being realistic about threads like these and how it's not actually the skills, but the playstyle itself that is causing some imbalance in the game.

Playing in groups is inherently the best option in a game like this. Which is why it's so important that counters to tight groups need to actually work. If they didn't specifically say the AOE cap increase and the Siege buff were to help spread out groups, then I wouldn't be calling for a nerf to Purge. I'm just observing what the developers wanted from these changes, and recognizing the flaws in their design. If they want their changes to have the desired effect on tight groups, they're gonna need to address how well purge works.

Also, grouping up doesn't have to mean stacking on crown. Just sayin.

Teargrants · May 2015

Lagpulse: 6 M
Steel Lagnado: 12 M
Amount of time it took potatoes to realize 12 > 6: Priceless

frozywozy · May 2015

VagabondAngel wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

I used to share my strategies but I won't do it anymore.... blah blah blah

Your sarcasm detector must be off. I am in one of the biggest PvP guilds of EP on the EU server and I am well aware of the strategies, skills, and gear that make good players and groups, thank you. My rhetorical sarcasm was intended to imply that your assertion that spamming one or two skills in a stacked group is not the reason for their effectiveness is, in fact, utter nonsense. Do you understand that or are you going to attempt to patronise me some more?

You are the one who asked me to explain which strategies I was reffering to and after I took the time to explain a lil bit more what my point was, you defend yourself stating that you are part of a big guild and that you already know all of that.

Make up your mind and stop wasting my time.

badmojo · May 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

VagabondAngel wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

I used to share my strategies but I won't do it anymore.... blah blah blah

Your sarcasm detector must be off. I am in one of the biggest PvP guilds of EP on the EU server and I am well aware of the strategies, skills, and gear that make good players and groups, thank you. My rhetorical sarcasm was intended to imply that your assertion that spamming one or two skills in a stacked group is not the reason for their effectiveness is, in fact, utter nonsense. Do you understand that or are you going to attempt to patronise me some more?

You are the one who asked me to explain which strategies I was reffering to and after I took the time to explain a lil bit more what my point was, you defend yourself stating that you are part of a big guild and that you already know all of that.

Make up your mind and stop wasting my time.

I'm still curious about these 50 other factors to successful zerging. All you really explained was that you can't just slot steel tornado in soul shriven robes and expect to win. So....what are the other 49 factors?

Teargrants · May 2015

badmojo wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

VagabondAngel wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

I used to share my strategies but I won't do it anymore.... blah blah blah

Your sarcasm detector must be off. I am in one of the biggest PvP guilds of EP on the EU server and I am well aware of the strategies, skills, and gear that make good players and groups, thank you. My rhetorical sarcasm was intended to imply that your assertion that spamming one or two skills in a stacked group is not the reason for their effectiveness is, in fact, utter nonsense. Do you understand that or are you going to attempt to patronise me some more?

You are the one who asked me to explain which strategies I was reffering to and after I took the time to explain a lil bit more what my point was, you defend yourself stating that you are part of a big guild and that you already know all of that.

Make up your mind and stop wasting my time.

I'm still curious about these 50 other factors to successful zerging. All you really explained was that you can't just slot steel tornado in soul shriven robes and expect to win. So....what are the other 49 factors?

Educate yourself.

OtarTheMad · May 2015

It would be a waste of time for ZOS to nerf Steel Tornado, honestly. These kinds of groups/guilds will ALWAYS find something to spam. First it was Caltrops (old bug caused those standing in it to take no siege damage) then Impulse, then it was Necrotic Orb, then it was Bat Swarm, then Unstable Wall and now it's Steel Tornado and Meteor.

It will always be something, all you can do is when you see these groups charge out from somewhere, don't try to fight them just run away and get back to an area where you can kill them from height/distance... like a keep wall.

frozywozy · May 2015

badmojo wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

VagabondAngel wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

I used to share my strategies but I won't do it anymore.... blah blah blah

Your sarcasm detector must be off. I am in one of the biggest PvP guilds of EP on the EU server and I am well aware of the strategies, skills, and gear that make good players and groups, thank you. My rhetorical sarcasm was intended to imply that your assertion that spamming one or two skills in a stacked group is not the reason for their effectiveness is, in fact, utter nonsense. Do you understand that or are you going to attempt to patronise me some more?

You are the one who asked me to explain which strategies I was reffering to and after I took the time to explain a lil bit more what my point was, you defend yourself stating that you are part of a big guild and that you already know all of that.

Make up your mind and stop wasting my time.

I'm still curious about these 50 other factors to successful zerging. All you really explained was that you can't just slot steel tornado in soul shriven robes and expect to win. So....what are the other 49 factors?

In my book, a zerg = 30players or more. Like I said plenty of times in my last posts, I run between 12-16players group during offhours and a full group during primetime. I also discourage people who stack 30-40men together and I will be the first to spread out some place else when I see too many EPs next to me.

Once we get along with the signification of zerging, we can talk about strategies used in organized groups.

Good day.

kevlarto_ESO · May 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

So... even if they nerf steel tornado, will that change what these groups are doing? Won't they just pick up the next best AOE and continue doing what they're doing? Steel tornado, impulse, vigor, these are not the problems, it's the stacking a bunch of players together and using purge to negate everything that is the real problem. The AOE increase, the siege buff, these were both supposed to encourage groups to spread out, but purge makes both ineffective.

Nerf purge, not the AOEs.

Well, I'll say this - the lag from the groups using tornado is about 100x worse than the impulse groups, I was at bleakers with 999+ when they were fighting at chalman, and the groups weren't even that big. Plus it ignores lag, so when everything else doesn't work.. It still wins fights for you.

I'm not even gonna bother talking about balance anymore, until all this crap is fixed - what does it matter? I was merely commenting that it took so long to figure out when it's so obvious that ST Zerg > Impulse Zerg.

The problem is not coming from the skill itself (Steel tornado VS Impulse) but the new AOE cap system and other incremental patches which decrease performances even more once in a while.

Btw, I don't think that steel tornado is OP, nirnhoded is and will be fixed eventually.

I agree, plus Steel tornado as very little particle effects, but with the aoe cap system the server is having to a lot more calculations, seems to me that making aoe a radius thing would have been better, if your in my 20m radius you get hit, I dunno /shrug

InvictoNZ · May 2015

Friendly fire fixes everything

Even the things you think are bad that it introduces... are actually fixes.

VagabondAngel · May 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

You are the one who asked me to explain...

Oh dear.

krim · May 2015

Im glad im not the only one who realizes what 1.6 has done to pvp.

Cody · May 2015

Hence why I stay out of the vet campaigns.

kijima · May 2015

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

kijima wrote: »

WTB: ESO PvP - Pre lighting patch

Game balance was just as terrible then, it was performance that was better.

When the devs decided to not increase HP pools commensurate to everything else, they really made a huge mistake in regards to TTK/TTL.

I'm also of the opinion that some of the damage calculations for some of the high damage attacks (like WB) really need revision.

Yup, game balance was a problem back then, but then I don't see balance ever really being fixed. It'll continually evolve as it does with any MMO. No arguments there.

But performance in Cyro was king back then, that's the point. On top of that, I'd go as far as saying that the game was more fun back then, as fun as say blackwater blade is now.

Sanct16 · May 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

Remove Aoes from the game.. they are just a gateway to poorly skilled play anyway. Keep siege as the only form of aoe.

All they need to do is limit the number of AoE abilities that a player can be hit by in any given second to 1. This makes zergball stacking less effective and forces players to actually do focus targetting and use abilities other than AoEing down players like trash mobs.

i dont like this idea at all. What about weak aoes like boundless storm or wall of elements? Should it stop my impulse from hitting?
And more important it would not stop people from blobbing as long as you dont change smth about heals and support skills like barrier, purge and vigor. You can kill everything with single target in a 60man train and take even less risk due to less damage taken.

IxSTALKERxI · May 2015

FYI, all the nerfs suggested in this thread will only make zerging worse. You would also be nerfing solo players and small groups of players who are trying to kill zergs... The nerfs would make people zerg more to survive etc. Nerfing is not the answer.
Edit: Except healing and shield caps.

Sanct16 · May 2015

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

FYI, all the nerfs suggested in this thread will only make zerging worse. You would also be nerfing solo players and small groups of players who are trying to kill zergs... The nerfs would make people zerg more to survive etc. Nerfing is not the answer.

very true. Do successfully nerf these groups damage has to scale with players hit so it might be safefor 10 players but risky for 50.

pppontus · May 2015

#neverforget1.5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fnZ9nJl_XY

@ZOS , are you guys aware that every effort you've done to punish stacking lagballs has been adapted to actually just make the lagballs stronger?

Maulkin · May 2015

Small groups are more loosely formed than big groups. They don't stack so much.

I think skills that deal exponentially more damage the more people that they hit *could* be part of the solution. That's how I envisaged Detonation would work before I saw it in PTS and was hugely disappointed. Chain Lightning is another suggestion.

Also i think some short duration siege effects should not be so easily purgeable. The fact oil catas became purgeable had a hugely negative effect in my opinion. Also meatbag healing debuff used to be 50%, but I think now it's basically a Major Defile so it's capped to 30%. I don't understand why that was cut by so much either, since now all effects are unified and they can't stack (not to mention that nothing I've seen grants Minor Defile, so I don't even know how you stack Minor & Major Defile)

I think it might be worth an experimental try to have utility siege like oil & meatbag catapults have short duration (say 4 secs) but not be purgeable. The siege DoTs would still be purgeable ofc and perhaps they'll have to reduce siege damage by ~15% to balance it out.

At the moment a 24 man raid can just sit in the middle, purge and heal and be fine. That's not really acceptable at this stage, something needs to happen.

Edit: Plus that Vigor skill needs to change. I remember stamina builds asking for a decent heal like a stamina GDB, but I don't remember them asking for an AoE heal that would turn them into group healers. I don't know who thought making it an AoE was a great idea, cause it wasn't.

pppontus · May 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Small groups are more loosely formed than big groups. They don't stack so much.

I think skills that deal exponentially more damage the more people that they hit *could* be part of the solution. That's how I envisaged Detonation would work before I saw it in PTS and was hugely disappointed. Chain Lightning is another suggestion.

Also i think some short duration siege effects should not be so easily purgeable. The fact oil catas became purgeable had a hugely negative effect in my opinion. Also meatbag healing debuff used to be 50%, but I think now it's basically a Major Defile so it's capped to 30%. I don't understand why that was cut by so much either, since now all effects are unified and they can't stack (not to mention that nothing I've seen grants Minor Defile, so I don't know how you stack Minor & Major Defile)

I think it might be worth an experimental try to have utility siege like oil & meatbag catapults have short duration (say 4 secs) but not be purgeable. The siege DoTs would still be purgeable ofc and perhaps they'll have to reduce siege damage by ~15% to balance it out.

At the moment a 24 man raid can just sit in the middle, purge and heal and be fine. That's not really acceptable at this stage, something needs to happen.

Yep. The issue is basically two major parts as I see it:

The effectiveness of small groups vs. larger groups was greatly reduced by the awful ultimate regeneration and to an extent other changes like siege damage, AOE caps still being diminishing, lag, etc. which in turns seems to have lead to all small groups basically quitting the game or forming large groups instead.

Large coordinated groups (20+) are basically immortal unless you beat them by numbers. You can drop 8 oils, meatbags and oil catas on them and it doesn't even matter because unlimited purges+barriers.

Additionally there's a whole long list of small issues, but these above seem to me like what's making pvp unplayable unless you're a ganker or a large group.

Soulac · May 2015

Yesterday on EU Mega server.. 50man raid spamming barrier and steel tornado, gg.
Even if you come through the barrier spam they still got like 10+ healing Templar or better said I completed my kill quest instantly after wiping them once.

PvP is totally *** up, at least on EU.. Huge Zergs, lag and people making use of both.. Proud of you ppl.

Alcast · May 2015

Its the passives that make DW pretty decent. As soon as you are injured Tornado does 100% increased dmg and when you are lower than 25% HP it does another 20% increased dmg.

But, if that stuff gets nerfed bc of PvP I go nuts. Most things these days got nerfed bc some ppl started QQ in PvP. Just get some Heavy armor and that wont be an issue anymore.
Also, might help to not stand in a enemy 50 man grp lol

pppontus · May 2015

Alcast wrote: »

Its the passives that make DW pretty decent. As soon as you are injured Tornado does 100% increased dmg and when you are lower than 25% HP it does another 20% increased dmg.

But, if that stuff gets nerfed bc of PvP I go nuts. Most things these days got nerfed bc some ppl started QQ in PvP. Just get some Heavy armor and that wont be an issue anymore.
Also, might help to not stand in a enemy 50 man grp lol

You have managed to miss the entire point of the thread.

Hint: It's not about steel tornado being nerfed.

Edit: pretty sure steel tornado works through lag when no other skills work even if I equip heavy armor. Or does heavy armor cure lag?

Derra · May 2015

Teargrants wrote: »

Lagpulse: 6 M
Steel Lagnado: 12 M
Amount of time it took potatoes to realize 12 > 6: Priceless

I´d have given you awesome for Lag Tornado.

Soulac wrote: »

Yesterday on EU Mega server.. 50man raid spamming barrier and steel tornado, gg.
Even if you come through the barrier spam they still got like 10+ healing Templar or better said I completed my kill quest instantly after wiping them once.

PvP is totally *** up, at least on EU.. Huge Zergs, lag and people making use of both.. Proud of you ppl.

Yeah. PvP on EU is pretty much unplayable atm if you have any interest in running sub 16 ppl grp on primetime. Pretty much everybody i play(ed) with quit or is thinking about doing so.