Or since class "balance" is irrelevant to PVE, they could expand PVP skill lines to more like 10...and while in Cryodiil those are the only skills you can use.

All PVP players would have the exact same options and no one could complain about imbalance of skills, not to mention for once PVE wouldn't be bent over to suit PVP win/win for all.

You can level 8 characters. That means you can do a Stam & Magicka build for each class.

Cagro wrote: »

Allow everybody access to all skills and passives, except racial passives. A cool way will be to have a max level chain of quests to learn other classes skills.

You'd, then, only shift the problem over to racials.

Psychobunni wrote: »

Cagro wrote: »

[

PVP players pay for the full game. Why should we limit them to 10 skills? One of the best things in this game is freedom to build your character the way you want.

They would still have access to the full game. Trying to balance PVP while not screwing up the needs of PVE is always going to be a disaster. Two totally different needs and is never going to be done right, I don't even know how they thought it was possible.

My solution would meet the needs of both while stopping a daily request for nerf/open skills/etc. Your solution would start a slew of new daily pvp complaints that everyone is running the same OP build, nerf it! and damage PVE once again in the process.

It's actually not that difficult. You design the game so that PvP is as balance as you can make it, then you build your PvE experience around THAT.

Sallington wrote: »

Everyone would run the same exact flavor-of-the-month builds.

At least now we have at least 4 builds running around.

Well it is not any different now.
There is flavor-of-the-month build now as well. It only takes you to switch the class.

Rook_Master wrote: »

OK, think about the consequences of being able to have a bar like this:

1. Bolt Escape
2. Dark Cloak
3. Reflective Scales
4. Breath of Life
5. Hardened Ward

Seriously, would anyone ever die in PvP?

Yeh was thinking along those lines myself lol. My pvp sorc would have a field day.

I'd also like GDB, Fear, Radiant Destruction, Ambush, Chains and Nova pls and ty.

*steps to the checkout line with a full cart of OPness

Psychobunni wrote: »

Gix wrote: »

It's actually not that difficult. You design the game so that PvP is as balance as you can make it, then you build your PvE experience around THAT.

As a PVE player I'd have to disagree with that idea. That would likely make all PVE content boring and the same, not to mention there is infinitely more PVE content than PVP, why center the game around a small aspect? If in the name of PVP balance all classes could heal/tank/dps just the same as another, what would even be the point? People like diversity if the game couldn't offer that, they would find one that did.

Agreed. This is an RPG. If people want PvP with true balance, play a game that is truly PvP focused and doesn't involve character development. There are plenty of them.

Based on the amount of content and the focus of the developers, PvP is not driving the direction of the game. PvP should have a big role in determining how CP work and end game armor sets. But PvP should not drive the class or weapon skills since most players will spend the vast majority of their time in PvE and will depend on the class and weapon skills to be able to complete single player content.

Cagro wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

You can level 8 characters. That means you can do a Stam & Magicka build for each class.

Some of us do not have time for alts and just like to concentrate in one character.

The decision to play just one character has costs. You lose flexibility. One character can't be all things.

I understand that the current design can be frustrating for those who wish Zenimax released a Elder Scrolls PvP game instead of an RPG with PvP. But I have been frustrate in the past with changes for the sake of PvP "balance" that made it hard for me to complete solo content when my build, which was far from OP in PvE, became obsolete after an update.

Personally, I am a big advocate for selling a VR14 boost in the crown store (though all you get is the level boost and the included skill points and attribute points from the level, without any of the skill leveling, etc that you normally collect along the way). That would allow people who don't want to play the game apart from PvP to minimize the need to do PvE.

Zenimax did advertise the PvP a lot, so they do have a responsibility to cater to the people who came to the game mostly for the PvP. I just don't think they need to go as far as some suggest since this is, at its core, an RPG. (to be fair, classes aren't actually necessary for an RPG)

Rook_Master wrote: »

OK, think about the consequences of being able to have a bar like this:

1. Bolt Escape
2. Dark Cloak
3. Reflective Scales
4. Breath of Life
5. Hardened Ward

Seriously, would anyone ever die in PvP?

Yes they would,

Because ZOS can easily add counters to each ability if they are not class tied for example:
1. Bold Escape
Improve Charge abilities so when you charge to Bold's path then you teleport through the path right into the caster
2. Dark Cloak
There are already plenty of ways to reveal cloaked players
3.Reflective Scales:
No Counter is needed, just pay attention and use abilities that cannot be reflected.
4.Breath of Life
You need magica to cast it efficiently and that means you are exposed to physical attacks. The healers are always priority targets so expect to die fast.
5.Hardened Ward
Add new ability: 'Negate shield'

If they are class tied on the other hand there is no way to balance it without destroying that class.

The only time classes will need to be balanced is when they are capable of doing too much well and overshadow the other roles.

This is an MMO, not a 1-v-1 fest or god simulator. You need to change your mentality entirely when playing an MMO.

avid_mdb16_ESO wrote: »

zeitzbachrwb17_ESO wrote: »

The only time classes will need to be balanced is when they are capable of doing too much well and overshadow the other roles.

This is an MMO, not a 1-v-1 fest or god simulator. You need to change your mentality entirely when playing an MMO.

I don't see how we should change the mentality?
Looks like you want to change the human nature.
There will always be the race to create the most god-alike character.

There are several builds there that can handle 1vsX fights continuously where the X looks like some mosquitoes.
And that my friend should be balanced, but it cannot be done because you destroy the class if you do it.

MMO is balance classes being able to dominate at a certain role. ATM, Templar, although is bad in 1 v 1, is probably the best for PvE and is extremely dangerous in group PVP as healer will greatly amplify group strength if not taken down right away. This is the kind of balance that MMOs always look for. A game where every role has a weakness or strength.

If it has almost no weaknesses like a tank that can outCC, out sustain and out damage, then that needs to be nerfed.

Current state of the game is so much easier to balance since you can tell who can do what well atm but trying to remove the class difference when it comes to role is a great way to destroy an MMO balance. The wrong mentality here is that when people see the name "Elder scroll" in "Elder scroll online", they assume the game will be like the other ES game where you are playing a person about to become a god and do as please. This is a wrong mentality. You are playing with other players now so better accept that the power level line will exist or go back to offline games.

Personally, I think the decision to make classes anything more than a little handful of bonuses or even having them at all was a mistake. But it's too late to change that now without some MAJOR upheaval to the system.

As far as FotM is concerned, there will always be FotM and there will always be those who mock the ones who do not use FotM. Just as there will always be complaints from min/maxers concerning anything that one character can have that another character cannot. Racials, classes, character height, a manly mustache, as long as there's even the slightest advantage somewhere, they will complain about it.

Best you can do is try to balance things without homogenizing or pigeonholing them.

Here we go again. Sometimes I feel the banhammer looming over me because of this one particular subject. But like moths and flames, I simply can't resist.

So.

Cagro wrote: »

Allow everybody access to all skills and passives, except racial passives. A cool way will be to have a max level chain of quests to learn other classes skills.

Can't really say I agree with this. I find myself coming down on the side of the people who think it's overpowered. Because it totally would be. Some of the class passives are all-encompassing. You can't just have them all. In the form they currently reside in, it literally would be god-mode. Without the benefit of oversight, or a green forum name.

Psychobunni wrote: »

Or since class "balance" is irrelevant to PVE, they could expand PVP skill lines to more like 10...and while in Cryodiil those are the only skills you can use.

Nice unrelated agenda there. Like the ability to pick the skills best suited to your character are completely irrelevant to the 50 levels and v1-14 that follow? 3 realms of quests, not to mention all the daily dungeon grinds, and those are what? Nothing? Doesn't matter how you play unless you have someone around on the receiving end of it?

MCMancub wrote: »

This sounds like a terrible idea. Why do people keep trying to make this game Skyrim?

Well, I'd have to say for 2 reasons:
1) Skyrim was fun.
2) Skyrim sold.

avid_mdb16_ESO wrote: »

It is too late to open the class skills at this moment of time....it will bring too much discomfort to the player base.
They've should done it right from the beginning like they did with the armor type.

The balancing indeed would be much easier to do without classes.

This here I most emphatically agree with. Not all the class skills are created equal. Not by a long shot. But they would certainly be easier to balance on a line for line basis, rather than a class for class basis.

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Personally, I am a big advocate for selling a VR14 boost in the crown store (though all you get is the level boost and the included skill points and attribute points from the level, without any of the skill leveling, etc that you normally collect along the way). That would allow people who don't want to play the game apart from PvP to minimize the need to do PvE.

Worst idea ever. I mean....while you're at it, why don't we just remove levels and the rest of the world from the game. Cyrodiil only?

Totally missing the LOL button now.

Zenimax did advertise the PvP a lot, so they do have a responsibility to cater to the people who came to the game mostly for the PvP. I just don't think they need to go as far as some suggest since this is, at its core, an RPG. (to be fair, classes aren't actually necessary for an RPG)

Funny, they also advertised it as an ES game on the platform of "Play as you want". Where's the responsibility to cater to us?

(Actually, in all seriousness, I don't think ZOS should cater to anyone. Especially on these forums. They should make their game as they see fit. But I'd give my eye-teeth for them to stop catering to all the people, their staff included, hell-bent on making DaoC 2. But that's a personal gripe. Onwards!)

avid_mdb16_ESO wrote: »

I don't see how we should change the mentality?

No? ZOS had a chance to turn the entire genre on it's head. To show all you class-based adherents that there is, indeed, a better way. With the same openness that the single player ES games showed. It can be done. It has been done. But never on a scale this grand.

The trend continues.

There are several builds there that can handle 1vsX fights continuously where the X looks like some mosquitoes.
And that my friend should be balanced, but it cannot be done because you destroy the class if you do it.

So....classes are already broken, let's penalize people by prohibiting the ability to play as they want by...what....reinforcing the idea of classes? Fail logic fails.

Destroy the classes. Burn them in fire. Mostly because I like fire.

rajaniemiorama_ESO wrote: »

I don't understand the stance of "True balance is the lack of a need to balance."

Nobody said "Don't balance". Oh, the skill lines are in serious need of balancing against one another. Opening them up will illustrate that point most effectively. The only thing that's been hiding the imbalance is that everyone had 2 other class lines to fall back on that may or may not have been bar-worthy.

All of which is an entirely seperate issue.

Min/Maxing is both bane and benefit to balance.

So, you're saying what, that if we remove classes we won't have min/maxers? I thought we were going to end up with more?

This thread's arguements have weird rules.

Meh.