[Theory] Group size contributor to lag? (please read, not about zerging)

Keron · April 2015

I just had a Sunday morning epiphany while sitting in the sun reading the comments on one of the video posts. A theory to discuss:

Everyone knows that lag that occurs if someone joins a raidgroup. Sometimes it's bad enough on weaker machines/connections to boot people from the group.

We also know the difference between "many players at the same location" and "many groups at the same location" lag wise, even if the total number is about the same.

Anecdotal facts: a large battle on Azura EU, all three factions at Chalman mile gate, at least 100 players in total and no lag. One large group arrives, estimated around 20 players clearly a guild group. Suddenly PR rises to 500+ and the freezes, un-responsiveness, etc. starts.

Is it possible that reducing the maximum group size in Cyrodiil to 12 (for me that seems to be break even where join-lag gets noticeable) might help with the lag in large battles?

Is it even possible that with the minimal data exchange happening between group members this could have an influence? Why is there group join lag?

I do not expect any official comments, as they usually post excuses only, but maybe the community could discuss this a little bit and contribute their experiences.

kevlarto_ESO · April 2015

I know the official word is to many players in one area is a major cause of lag, maybe before that group arrived the server was in a good spot, maybe that group arrives blobbed up spamming aoe's , I still think removing the aoe cap and all the new calculations the server has to make can't help, but maybe it does I am no programmer. I know before 1.6 there could be some huge battles until the third faction showed up, now two factions can cause the same lag.

Would there be much difference if one group of 24 showed up or two groups of 12 ? I know this is pain for both ZOS and the player's maybe someday they will figure it out after consoles release.

Keron · April 2015

The thing is, that was actually a nice guild group. No meteors, little healing springs, not that bad on the spammalicious AoE front... And the lag came on immediately they joined the area, not yet the fight.

As I said, that's anecdotal only and about the only time I can remember this strong an effect.

If what I have come up with has any substance to it, and I think it's not that far-fetched considering the join lag, it could very well be a quick to implement fix. Maybe make that in a try-out campaign like the new non vet one.

Rune_Relic · April 2015

Worth exploring.
We have had major grouping bug issues in the past.
If its a grouping bug of some kind still in existence (or reintroduced) then the group size could fan the flames.

For one ...you get group chat added to the network load that must be available even when not used much.
If you are in a guild too ??? with guild chat running

Sacadon · April 2015

I too have seen where non-AoE spamming groups cause lag. If you tied ping response increase to sound increase, it would sound just like footsteps approaching as the groups get closer (as my mind tends to do). And some groups you can hear a long ways away as they approach (ie: EP).

Not sure how easy it would be to change max group size but would like to know.

Nala_ · April 2015

ask the certain EP guild that runs 24 mans all spamming aoe and healing springs in a 3m area. they know whats causing the lag, but its definitely not them.

Sacadon · April 2015

Nala_ wrote: »

ask the certain EP guild that runs 24 mans all spamming aoe and healing springs in a 3m area. they know whats causing the lag, but its definitely not them.

While some groups may do it on purpose, there is not one single faction or group you can point to as to blame for lag. If anyone believes this, they're misinformed at best. Exploitable aspects of a game will always be exploited. It's up to us players to just deal with it and ZOS to do their best to minimize how much we have to do this. ZOS is very far behind on their end of this.

There's someone in a DC group that exploits the ability to spam meteor in constant succession. Constantly using this as an attempted offensive tactic is both chicken-shtt and plain dumb because most people just block or reflect it. I'm going to assume it's a guy, since we get easily amused at such things regardless of how old we are

.

Anyway, back to the OP. I do think that the cause of lag is not just one thing and that how the game handles groups at a minimum contributes to the overall problem. Forcing a reduction in total group size may be a reasonable bandaid in the short-term to free up some server-side cycles till a real fix can be implemented.

EDIT: readability fixes

bosmern_ESO · April 2015

Everyone contributes to lag, whether they are solo players or players in a group.

Even if you were to reduce group sizes down too 12 it wouldn't change, you could get rid of groups in pvp all together and that wouldn't work. Right now there are only 2 linear paths each faction to follow.

Alessia->Sej->BRK (and vice versa)
Ash->Nikel->Roe (vice versa)
Chalman->Bleakers->Aleswell (vice versa)
(yes there are Brindle, dragonclaw, and drake. But there is nowhere near the focus on them)

As long as it remains those paths, there will always be lag in pvp. There will still be massive groups of one faction heading to one keep on the path, and there will be a massive group of players defending the keeps (though they may all be unorganized).

Once you are in Tick range of the keeps, you will contribute to lag when using abilities and other things, it doesn't matter if your are in a group or not, Keeps are fairly small areas.

Sypher · April 2015

100 People Spread out vs 100 People Spread out = Little lag, maybe none.

24 ('Elite' PvP Group Stacked on the crown) vs Any Amount of People = Lag.

Science.

Keron · April 2015

Thanks for the input guys. @Sypher have you experienced this even if the spread outs by chance aggregate? That would be kind of similar to crown stacked, e.g. on the way from Farra to arrius mine.

I don't perceive performance diminishment in case it's a stacked non-grouped zerg, even with mucho healing springs etc.

I don't know whether that's imaginary or real, but grouping seems to have some kind of influence.

pppontus · April 2015

Yes, 100v100 lag free is entirely possible and happens on occasion. When players are spread out and fighting in a "normal" way rather than just spamming skills. However, I do not believe this is related to group size specifically as I've been in plenty 12+ groups where we just fight slightly spread out and with mostly single target which works perfectly in the midst of 100 v 100. My FPS can drop a bit, but no real lag.

As soon as lagballs (so called "bomb squads") approach our group of 8, everything just crashes. But only specific groups. There are plenty trains that do not seem to cause lag as well. The main difference seem to be that the more skilled groups, who have players that are smart seem to land in the second. Basically the players who are capable of splitting up without dying in 26ms.

Whether they know something I don't and do it purposely, I have no idea. But I doubt it's simply group related, as it doesn't seem to consistently happen.

The_Death_Princess · April 2015

The exploit used to lagbomb isnt specifically associated with the aoe. It just seems that the exploiters switched to meteor post no caps since prior it was a worthless ult.

Your description of what happened is dead on lagsploit description. I would believe if you had 100 ish players in an area, had to be at least one nearly full group there already, doubt its 100 ganker types.

Your point about group interaction maybe something worth looking at though, cant say I have evdidence 1 player coming in and lagsploiting.... gankers that cheat usually speed hack.

Keron · April 2015

Nah, not 100 gankers, for sure. No, what I referred to was 100 in total, organized in pug groups, congregating solo players or small teams, not operating as a train but more an amoeboid mass, sometimes spreading, sometimes contracting.

AoEs, heals as well as damage, were being used on all sides. The group entering the situation was a train.

But then, the lag started before they actually spammed any abilities, hence my guess that group size alone might be facilitating lag.

But since you brought it up: today I had a strange encounter. I was scouting drakelowe because a resource lit up and found a duo team of yellows. I was on my V1 sorceress and I badly suck with her, so I decided to just try to stall them as much as possible.

Now as soon as I engaged, nothing would work. Weapon change took 5+ seconds, streak wouldn't activate, wards didn't go up, etc. and it felt like 15000 PR even though the UI showed about 120.

Just inability on my side (which is a completely reasonable explanation considering I didn't play her for about 4 months) or is lagsploiting possible even in a 1v1 (or 2v1) situation?

Waylander · April 2015

I think it's the nature of the organised group meta vs a PUG group or more casual pvp group.

Organised 'Elite' Group
- stacks tightly to maximise healing efficiency/damage
- runs AoE healing/dmg/utility spells/abilities

PUG/Casual PvP Group
- runs the 1 v X build they see on the interwebs
- tries to hit other groups with single target spells/abilities

AoE's are more intensive on the server than single target abilities.

Get a couple of organised groups in the same area, add in some pugs for good measure and we have the perfect situation for lag.

Smaller groups could help, as it is more difficult to stack when you can't identify crown or your own group as easily, but the Elite groups will still be able to do it through TS and calling markers/directions.

I am left wondering if removing the red circle from where oil is being poured has helped with the lag problem? The invisible oil burns I tell ya!