Carde wrote: »

Why is this relevant to The Elder Scrolls Online?

lordrichter wrote: »

For ESO, paid add-ons is just the same as P2W.

Imagine if you had to buy some critical add-on, like FTC?

Audigy wrote: »

I understand you guys, but this isn't new.

Have you all forgotten what happened to Counter Strike, Team Fortress, Action HL, Day of Defeat and all the others? They all became a cash cow as Valve saw the big $$$.
Or what about map and weapon packs? Having access to a new map or weapon could easily cost you 10 or more bucks.

The only thing that changed now is that the actual developers of the mods can decide themselves if they want money or not. If they are clever then they let people set the price themselves as I wouldn't buy a mod for a game if forced to, as for me mods should always be free and supported by a donation. Right now, everyone who pays at Steam hands over money to Tom Bui and only a small % to the actual developers.
Still, selling mods is in the business since 15 years and nothing new. The days when fans made stuff for free are long gone guys and somehow you can not blame them. It takes a lot of time to make a mod.


Since I don't use Addons, I couldn't care less if they are in the crown store. Those are not actual content, while mods are. Big difference guys!

Anyone can sell ESO addons now. It's as easy as selling any other software. The Skyrim mods are ludicrous because devs only keep 25% for the privilege of selling them in the workshop. Sell them on your own and keep 100% (less pmt processor fees).

Not sure about Skyrim, but if you wanted to sell a source mod, you had to pay Valve 250.000$$$ first.

Audigy wrote: »

pugyourself wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

I understand you guys, but this isn't new.

Have you all forgotten what happened to Counter Strike, Team Fortress, Action HL, Day of Defeat and all the others? They all became a cash cow as Valve saw the big $$$.
Or what about map and weapon packs? Having access to a new map or weapon could easily cost you 10 or more bucks.

The only thing that changed now is that the actual developers of the mods can decide themselves if they want money or not. If they are clever then they let people set the price themselves as I wouldn't buy a mod for a game if forced to, as for me mods should always be free and supported by a donation. Right now, everyone who pays at Steam hands over money to Tom Bui and only a small % to the actual developers.
Still, selling mods is in the business since 15 years and nothing new. The days when fans made stuff for free are long gone guys and somehow you can not blame them. It takes a lot of time to make a mod.


Since I don't use Addons, I couldn't care less if they are in the crown store. Those are not actual content, while mods are. Big difference guys!

Anyone can sell ESO addons now. It's as easy as selling any other software. The Skyrim mods are ludicrous because devs only keep 25% for the privilege of selling them in the workshop. Sell them on your own and keep 100% (less pmt processor fees).

Not sure about Skyrim, but if you wanted to sell a source mod, you had to pay Valve 250.000$$$ first.

If I develop a mod, the source code is mine to sell. They can shut down the API or close it off to registered (approved) devs who agree to Draconian terms but short of that nothing is stopping me from developing and selling on my own if I feel like doing that. I have a day job so I'm not too concerned. I'm just saying that no one should be giving Steam 75% to sell their mods. They should sell off-site.

Edited for grammar

You can sell it yes, but you will make a copyright infringement if your work is based on someone else's work. As example, the game workshop for Skyrim or SKSE. Mods are based on both tools, so selling these mods without permission is not legal. Using other peoples work for the own isn't new btw. its done since centuries.

A lot of game developers create something and others pay a fee to use it. One of the first big names who did this was John Carmack at ID software. He made a side scrolling technique for the commander Keen games. Pretty much every side scrolling game later, was based on that and it changed gaming on PC at that time. Same could be said about the Quake engine, Source or Unreal etc.

That said, doing something illegal and being caught are still two different things

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Speaking as someone who has done quality in-depth mods since Morrowind (Sgaileach Estate and others for Morrowind, Phinix Master Summon and others for Oblivion, Phinix Natural ENB and the phiTame hunter-pet taming overhaul for Skyrim, and more recently a slew of addons for ESO), I can speak from experience about the "generosity" of the community.

Don't get me wrong, I do this because I love it. If I never made a dime on it (which I haven't, aside from one random $8 dollar donation a few years ago), I would still do it, and do it gladly, and not begrudge the community I choose to share with, for I am grateful for the privilege of living in a time when such is even possible as a hobby. It is much headier than collecting stamps, and typically I get back as much as I give in support and community on the forums and such. I consider the learning experience to be of a certain value in and of itself.

But here's the thing. There are all these people with loads of "disposable income" that drop $1000 or more on a flower-pooping cosmetic bow in GW2 that took a whole 15 minutes to paint and code, yet when it comes to dropping a few bucks in donations for a mod that took weeks or months that they use regularly and which adds a ton to their game, people will NOT donate one red cent.

Call it human nature, the "pay to fap" complex, whatever, but if people have the option to do a nice thing or get something for free, they will take it for free 99.9999% of the time, even if they can afford it and the mod authors are starving! Again, personal experience.

So, I am generally FOR the notion of monetization OPTIONS, though I am not in a huge hurry to go take down all my mods or anything. I too feel that 25% for the author is absolute unmitigated greedy ***ing bull shnack.

There needs to be a way for artists to not get screwed. I'm just not sure this is it...

...at least not quite yet.

There is always a catch isn't there?

On the one side, people who offer content in the net put a lot of time and also money into this, yet offer most for free, so far at least.
The "customers" consume said content, often not even leaving a friendly reply, but being the first to complain if something doesn't suit them or is delayed.

A way out of that misery is money, as money lets you forget the negatives (nobody can deny this). To get money however, a third party must be involved, either the original copyright holder or a shop / both. They then take most of the money and the actual content creator is left with an "allowance".
Right now, companies try to milk the creative heads of the internet, we do see this since years by EA and the battlefield series / sims or Valve which actually sold mods for full price (CSS, TF2, DOD...).

YT is another example, you can upload your music and YT makes money with it by putting commercials under it. Same applies to videos about games. You might think you make money, but the truth is YT / Google does and you only get a tiny bit of it.

The whole money making in the internet has changed how people make content these days. While around the 90s - middle of 2000 a video or piece of mod was well coded and thought out, today you get buggy and rushed stuff, stuff that nobody really needs, which isn't updated or customer supported. Some people only make mods to get a deal with a gaming company, while not wrong in theory, it often affects the quality in a negative way. The content creators only see the $$$ and often forget that the passion was what made their work once good. Its quite a dilemma actually

This now is a bit off topic, however I will share it since it fits Bethesda / ZOs history and how money can change things in the gaming world.

There was a situation in the early 90s of a company, that company was offered a 2.5 Mio $$$ deal by Sierra to publish their next game. Just imagine, 2.5 million to release your game, that's just crazy!

The company already saw the big $$$ and wanted a 100k advance and the deal was scrapped. The greed almost ruined one of the most talented guys at the time or did it safe them? While the company still made progress afterwards and is now a part of Zenimax Media, it could have and maybe even has changed gaming as we know it today. Who knows what would had happened to gaming if they would had gone with Sierra? The company I speak of is ID Software, one of the most influential companies of the first gaming century on PC

Why do I mention this?

Well I do for two reasons.

1. What will happen to modding if the modders try to create content for the sole purpose of earning money? Will the quality decline just like it has with game releases? Will every new update cost a few bucks, even if its just a bug fix like with so many programs these days?

2. Might those deals if not taken, offer those who refuse a new market, like with ID Software once? They will stay independent and might create something even bigger than they do now. As I said, nobody of us knows if Wolfenstein 3D would had happened with Sierra, so maybe Skyrim "xy" might now only happen because many modders go for the quick bucks, so that those who refuse will be able to make better mods?


I think, nobody of us knows what the future will bring, but history always repeats itself, its so funny to think about this. Money is always a driving force, be it negative or positive for those who take it or refuse.