Since you're charging for Skyrim mods now...

NadiusMaximus

timidobserver wrote: »

Why is this thread even here. Skyrim is a single player game made by Bethsada. This is a MMO made by Zenimax.

Also mods and addons are completely different things. Mods are on the level of player made expansions for the game. It would be like players making the Imperial City rather than Zenimax. Addons just enhance functionality.

So, when they shut down the use of addon, then start selling them themselves, you'd be OK with that.
I know that's not gonna happen, but could with an easy drm implementation. I've seen it before.

If Imperial city was made by players, we would be playing it by now,and it wouldn't be dlc.

timidobserver

NadiusMaximus wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Why is this thread even here. Skyrim is a single player game made by Bethsada. This is a MMO made by Zenimax.

Also mods and addons are completely different things. Mods are on the level of player made expansions for the game. It would be like players making the Imperial City rather than Zenimax. Addons just enhance functionality.

So, when they shut down the use of addon, then start selling them themselves, you'd be OK with that.
I know that's not gonna happen, but could with an easy drm implementation. I've seen it before.

If Imperial city was made by players, we would be playing it by now,and it wouldn't be dlc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8dhwtSUNDc

Ace_SiN

For every addon I use, that must be paid for, there will be 1 less addon I use. If these paid for mods become the norm, then modding will be dead to me as well. Valve has been very supportive of the modding community, but I feel as if they are missing the point of why modding is so great.

If this nonsense does become the norm, I can guarantee you all of the passion we see in most modding projects will turn into greed(remember when the gaming industry was filled with passionate devs back when the industry had something to prove?).

/rant

newtinmpls

timidobserver wrote: »

Why is this thread even here. Skyrim is a single player game made by Bethsada. This is a MMO made by Zenimax.

Zeni was made with Bethesda money, and now owns Bethesda.

I suspect what with the "monetization" of ESO via the crown shop occuring parallel to charging for Skyrim mods, the community is a bit concerned as to what is going to happen to the money/quality balance of Zeni products in general.

Phinix1

Ace_SiN wrote: »

For every addon I use, that must be paid for, there will be 1 less addon I use. If these paid for mods become the norm, then modding will be dead to me as well. Valve has been very supportive of the modding community, but I feel as if they are missing the point of why modding is so great.

If this nonsense does become the norm, I can guarantee you all of the passion we see in most modding projects will turn into greed(remember when the gaming industry was filled with passionate devs back when the industry had something to prove?).

/rant

So you don't think mod authors should have an OPTION to get paid, under ANY circumstances?

Sort of black and white don't you think? It is still up to the addon author whether to charge. The big problem here is Valve taking 75% off the top. That is just ludicrous.

Taking such a hard-nose stance against this saying it "misses the point of what makes modding so great" seems a little like arguing against human rights in a third world country.

Because it misses the point of what makes cheap labor so great!

Yeah, we all know how great it is to get something nice for free. The trouble is that given the option, no one ever supports the authors, which will ALSO lead to the death of modding.

At least modding much beyond the caliber of shiny boots and blonde Lidia.

Phinix1

You know what is really funny? People that basically strap a web cam to their face and game-stream get hundreds of dollars a month (sometimes thousands) without really creating anything or doing any work at all.

Yet no one donates to mod authors that create things which elevate the games people play because it is "against the spirit of modding."

Again not saying this is the solution, but something is definitely screwed up with that picture.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

if people have the option to do a nice thing or get something for free, they will take it for free 99.9999% of the time,

Actually, people are not quite that bad. Lots of people will make a choice to pay for a service if you ask for voluntary donations and make it easy for them to donate, as long as you are asking for reasonable amounts of money. If you ask for enough money to make a significant difference to people's daily life, they are a lot less likely to pay, but if they have money to spare and it's not all that expensive, they will do it surprisingly often.

Studies on the old "shareware" model and the modern style voluntary donations for free software and free online services have shown that people can choose to pay quite a lot for a service that they could have for nothing, as long as they get enough use or enjoyment out of it. Trying before buying is probably an important factor here, though. Paying in advance for an unknown product requires a good review system.

LucyferLightbringer

Gaming really goes to hell. Paying for crappy 5 minute work dlcs or stuff cut off from games for the sake of double charging was bad enough, now companies are gonna charge us for stuff they didn't even made. the 75% for company 25% for creators is the reason i will never buy any mod. They want 75% for what? Doing nothing?

Ace_SiN

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

So you don't think mod authors should have an OPTION to get paid, under ANY circumstances?

Sort of black and white don't you think? It is still up to the addon author whether to charge. The big problem here is Valve taking 75% off the top. That is just ludicrous.

The option should remain optional for the user. What we both see as the "big" problem is not the same.

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Taking such a hard-nose stance against this saying it "misses the point of what makes modding so great" seems a little like arguing against human rights in a third world country.

Because it misses the point of what makes cheap labor so great!

Yea.. Except no.. That's not even remotely close. A person is not forced to mod nor has it ever been a solid way to make a living. Almost everything about modding tells the maker that they SHOULDN'T be 'wasting" their time doing it if their intended goal is to make a living. Yet we still see hundreds of mods churning out and even some massive mods that could EASILY be another game or DLC. What drives them then to "waste" their time of their OWN free will? Passion.. The gaming industry was built on such unrivaled passion. The film industry was also built on such passion.. Hell most things started with such passion. Look how they ALL turned out. It's all about milking the cow for all it's worth now. I haven't seen any passion in a EA IP in years and if you asked my childhood self about "old school" EA I would have a koolaid smile and you wouldn't be able to shut me up. That's no longer the case these days..

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Yeah, we all know how great it is to get something nice for free. The trouble is that given the option, no one ever supports the authors, which will ALSO lead to the death of modding.

Lmao yea because modding is something brand new and we must keep this new fad going by offering more. If only that were true.. Modding hasn't died out at all without the creators being paid(have you seen how many mods were just made for the recently released Cities: Skylines alone?).

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

I'll just link this here. It's a reasonably short read, and I think it's highly relevant.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/motivation.html

TL;DR: Monetary reward is not a strong motivation for creative work. It can even act as a de-motivator.

Tandor

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Wow, I just heard about this! The funny thing is, modders were asking years ago for a way to monetize. Now that they have it, all you hear are complaints, LOL.

That's because years ago people were perfectly willing to pay for services, now they feel "entitled" to have everything for free.

Phinix1

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

I'll just link this here. It's a reasonably short read, and I think it's highly relevant.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/motivation.html

TL;DR: Monetary reward is not a strong motivation for creative work. It can even act as a de-motivator.

So, what IS the reward then? And what, pray tell, will happen to that "pride" or "need for recognition" or whatever pop psyche assumption that led to this huge cow milking when the authors wake up and realize they've got giant mechanical udder plungers sucking on their brain matter?

Ace_SiN wrote: »

Passion.. The gaming industry was built on such unrivaled passion. The film industry was also built on such passion.. Hell most things started with such passion. Look how they ALL turned out. It's all about milking the cow for all it's worth now. I haven't seen any passion in a EA IP in years and if you asked my childhood self about "old school" EA I would have a koolaid smile and you wouldn't be able to shut me up. That's no longer the case these days..

It is a bubble that isn't all that old, and is ready to burst. I can tell you (and all the pop psyche automatons that read internet forums to get material for their term papers and e-articles) exactly why that is.

Motivation. Fool me once...

Sure, you can take advantage of a young person's need for recognition or validation or sense of self-worth to the community or whatever other of Maslow's needs you think they are craving fulfillment of, but that only works for a limited time.

The modding "industry" is like a very young child that is still somewhat bright-eyed and naïve about the way the world REALLY works.

Once it wakes up and realizes the dream of breaking into a multi-billion dollar industry is a LIE and all their work "proving themselves" was what made these greedy few daddy's boys rich off their labor, that bubble will burst as sure as a Wonka blimp once the Oompa Loompa at the peddles has died of malnutrition.

But by all means, Valve et all, don't let me dislodge your udder pump. XD

Phinix1

Tandor wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Wow, I just heard about this! The funny thing is, modders were asking years ago for a way to monetize. Now that they have it, all you hear are complaints, LOL.

That's because years ago people were perfectly willing to pay for services, now they feel "entitled" to have everything for free.

1000 times this.

Ace_SiN

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

It is a bubble that isn't all that old, and is ready to burst. I can tell you (and all the pop psyche automatons that read internet forums to get material for their term papers and e-articles) exactly why that is.

Yea you go right ahead and tell me why this bubble is ready to burst when the modding community continues to grow(depending on the interest of the IP and to some extent how easily the data is modifiable, but that's more about the the game and less about the modding community dying).

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

The modding "industry" is like a very young child that is still somewhat bright-eyed and naïve about the way the world REALLY works.

Yes, because people don't do things they are passionate about for free with the OPTION of a donation. Sure they have their dream of making it big, but until that day they let their passion drive them. I suggest you visit the streets/subways of New York City if you want to see passionate musicians sing, play instruments, etc for free just to create that exposure/experience and to show others their passion. I'll then point you to the music industry where songs all sound the same to fit whatever "trend" is currently vibing with the 'kids". If saying 1 word over a nice sounding beat is making money, then that's what you're going to hear from most musicians(most, not all).

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Once it wakes up and realizes the dream of breaking into a multi-billion dollar industry is a LIE and all their work "proving themselves" was what made these greedy few daddy's boys rich off their labor, that bubble will burst as sure as a Wonka blimp once the Oompa Loompa at the peddles has died of malnutrition.

But by all means, Valve et all, don't let me dislodge your udder pump. XD

You heard it here bright eyed kids. Stop dreaming. Your only worth is being used. I wonder where would we be today if people of past generations actually started believing that garbage you just posted? Modders have made it into the industry(being able to show projects you've done goes well with employers and on hand experience will always work in your favor) and these days anyone willing to go indie have plenty of options to help them(I have a few friends that went indie and while it's still tough, they are making some money from it).

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

So, what IS the reward then? And what, pray tell, will happen to that "pride" or "need for recognition" or whatever pop psyche assumption that led to this huge cow milking when the authors wake up and realize they've got giant mechanical udder plungers sucking on their brain matter?

Your view on this is very cynical. Mine is not. I see lots of intrinsic rewards in most of the things I do, and the work I get paid for is not always the work in which I take the greatest pride. Call me naïve if you want, but we are speaking of mods, which are usually done as small scale, spare time projects for the author's own enjoyment. There are notable exceptions to this, but with the bigger and more ambitious mods for Oblivion and Skyrim I have played, I have made donations to the authors as a "thank you" for my enjoyment of their work. I may be part of a minority in that respect, but I am not a unique snowflake.

My point is not that the more ambitious mod authors should not have a way to make money from their work if they want to. If they want to try this model, let them. (I would have liked to see more of the reward go to the authors and less to Valve, but it's a start.) However, high quality creative work is still often done for what would count as "absolutely nothing" in economical terms, and it seems like it's part of human nature. The concept of "starving artists" is not a myth. People are actually prepared to suffer economically in exchange for doing what they like best, and what they do best.

The other side of that coin is that large scale creative work can not be done well for only extrinsic reward, i.e. if you only throw money at the problem. Lots of utterly failed games and bad movies have proven that monetary gain for the creators is not the main key to success for creative projects. You need creative vision, pride, enjoyment, all those fluffy things.

If we instead focus on smaller mods, such small scale creative work is very often done for its intrinsic reward only, and the result can be of very high quality. Strong communities are not built by putting them on a payroll, and I hope unpaid modding with voluntary donations will continue and flourish in parallel to the mods that you need to buy.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Delgent wrote: »

...time to start allowing developers to charge for ESO addon content as well!

If you're going to go there, go hard or go home!

What ZOS has to do with Valve and Bethesda to boot, second if someone wants to sell their mods for Skyrim so be it. Is down TO THE MODER if he wants to put his mods to the Marketplace or put it for free on Nexus.

I do not see where the story is tbh.

Ojustaboo

There's a FEW (compared to all the mods out there) skyrim mods that I think the makers are perfectly within their right to expect people to pay. A FEW are awesome, show great skill and really improve game play.

The problem comes when everyone and their brother can hash a load of crap together and try to sell it. Sure you will have user reviews but this is always open to abuse, and when for every 100 paid mods, 99 aren't worth loading even if they were free, in my opinion it does more harm than good.

metalsugarb16_ESO

So.... don't get your mods through Valve. There are other sources for mods. (more fun mods than can be found at valve LOL)

And what is wrong with paying a little for those huge mods (like Moonpath to Elsweyr) that are bordering on being dlc?

Whiny players thinking they are entitled to everything for free. You are not. That khajiit you ran into on your way to Markarth did not give you his skooma for free, did he?

I love mods, I mod the living *** out of most of my games (after the initial vanilla run) and wouldn't really mind at all paying for it. If they want to sell their mods for money, fraking LET THEM. These lovely people who spend a lot of their time creating something nice for the community, if they want to be rewarded with more than a touch of a "like"-button, they should have that opportunity.

Obviously, 25% should go to valve and 75% to the creator, but capitalism is not a perfect system.

(Also, like a previous poster stated: players will pay insane amount of cash for a glowing unicorn sword, but whine when someone asks them to pay for a dlc. It is not getting the world anywhere.)

Phinix1

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

The other side of that coin is that large scale creative work can not be done well for only extrinsic reward, i.e. if you only throw money at the problem. Lots of utterly failed games and bad movies have proven that monetary gain for the creators is not the main key to success for creative projects. You need creative vision, pride, enjoyment, all those fluffy things.

If we instead focus on smaller mods, such small scale creative work is very often done for its intrinsic reward only, and the result can be of very high quality. Strong communities are not built by putting them on a payroll, and I hope unpaid modding with voluntary donations will continue and flourish in parallel to the mods that you need to buy.

I do not mean to sound overly cynical. As I said before, I am one of those who has done it for over a decade now purely for that "intrinsic reward" you speak of.

But I think you have perhaps inadvertently hit on something which speaks to the reason this is generally perceived as a "bad thing," or perhaps more accurately, not that next big thing that would really be worth writing home about.

The crux of the problem lies in the reverse of what you said about extrinsic reward not necessarily leading to intrinsic value (or "throwing money at it" not necessarily leafing to quality).

The problem is that a total lack of money will often deflate even the most passionate and inspired ideas. How many times have I seen great musicians, writers, philosophers and poets, people with amazing ideas and great passion to see them through, all crash upon the rocks of ultimate reality.

It takes money to make money. Also, it takes money to EAT, to maintain our physical form, to LIVE.

Therein lies the core of this dilemma: PASSION ALONE DOES NOT KEEP YOU ALIVE. To quote Captain Sisko: "It just doesn't work that way. It should. But it doesn't.

If I sound cynical it is because I am reminded once again that the human race... simply isn't there yet. We still are too quick to trot out that old "there can be no free lunch" dogma to justify horrific atrocities of taking advantage of the defenseless.

When the talented are taken advantage of by the greedy that own everything, to such an extreme that the money being poured into talentless pursuit of wealth begins directly funding this travesty, one wonders when this species will get over that draconian pseudo-religion and cut out the middle man.

When every individual can have a reasonable quality of life, not frills, not luxury, but subsistence, food shelter and medicine type stuff, simply by virtue of their intrinsic human value being worth the monopolized abundance of global greed, on that day, I shall concede our species has evolved.

As I said, I just don't think we are quite there yet. Best intentions and all that.

Dixa

enough with this extremist rhetoric. bethesda is not selling the mods. it's a valve service on steam. bethesda had nothing to do with it but saying 'yeah ok i guess'.

other companies WILL be following suit. if this is too much for some of you, time to stop pc gaming entirely.

Dixa

NadiusMaximus wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Why is this thread even here. Skyrim is a single player game made by Bethsada. This is a MMO made by Zenimax.

Also mods and addons are completely different things. Mods are on the level of player made expansions for the game. It would be like players making the Imperial City rather than Zenimax. Addons just enhance functionality.

So, when they shut down the use of addon, then start selling them themselves, you'd be OK with that.
I know that's not gonna happen, but could with an easy drm implementation. I've seen it before.

If Imperial city was made by players, we would be playing it by now,and it wouldn't be dlc.

I am concerned by your posting history that this is your first ever mmorpg.

being that this seems to be the case, you clearly do not understand why these companies do not allow players to modify game files in any way. addons do not modify game files - they add to them. what addons do and mods do are radically different.

you can do your own googling, but it would be great for us and for your reputation if you educated yourself a tad on why mods for mmorpg's can not happen, and why VALVE monetizing user-created content is not the end of the world.

Islyn

lordrichter wrote: »

For ESO, paid add-ons is just the same as P2W.

Imagine if you had to buy some critical add-on, like FTC?

FTC is not critical imo. Just helpful.

ZOS_MichelleA

Hello there, everyone. As this thread is about Skyrim and Steam/Valve, we will be closing it for being off topic. We ask that discussions on the ESOTU forums be centered around ESOTU and not other games. Thank you for your understanding.