Leeching Strike, an awesome idea but very lackluster

ShadowHvo · April 2015

Greetings all.

I have a very personal deep love/hate relationship when it comes to "Siphoning Strikes" and its two morphs, Leeching Strikes and Siphoning Attacks.

Currently, in both PvP and PvE alike Siphoning Attacks are clearly the superior morph, do to the 15% chance of gaining Magicka AND Stamina on each ability cast. That is a very powerful ressource management tool, and really justifies the 17% weapon/spell damage loss.

However, when we look at Leeching Strikes, the idea sounds very good with the 2% health returned for each light or heavy attack made against an opponent. However, the problem comes in the actual use of the ability. Not only does it fill an ability slot, but it also nerfs the weapon/spell damage with 17%. In this case however, the 2% heal DOES NOT justify that 17% weakness the slightest.

Leeching Strike is the great underdog of the Siphoning Tree, it looks and sounds awesome, but is very bad in practice. It would be very nice to see this morph get more use, and my suggestion would be to increase the health returned to a total of 5% per succesful Light and Heavy attack. That will make the ability more useful, and perhaps even make it a good reliable self-heal.

Some people might scream that it sounds overpowered, but think about it for a second. You sacrifice 17% weapon/spell damage, you sacrifice an ability slot AND it ONLY works with light and heavy attacks, which means that their general DPS performence will be much lower, in return for the extra survivability.

At the current state, the 2% health returned simply does not justify the sacrifices one makes in order to use the ability in the first place, and it would be nice to see Leeching Strike become on-par with its counter part, Siphoning Attacks. Leeching Strike has very high potential for all playstyles, but at the current moment it simply falls too short on the health returned.

I would kindly ask you at Zenimax to consider increasing the health percent from 2% all the way up to 5% for Leeching Strikes, as that will still not allow the ability to be overpowered, but will allow it to actually be a good choice of a morph, instead of the bad decision it is at the current time.

Otherwise, what is you, the players thoughts on this?

RavenSworn · April 2015

/Signed

Though i'd rather increase the heal % and not touch the attacks. Keeping one alive doesnt do squat if you dont have magicka or Stamina.

ShadowHvo · April 2015

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

/Signed

Though i'd rather increase the heal % and not touch the attacks. Keeping one alive doesnt do squat if you dont have magicka or Stamina.

Oh no no! The standard magica and stamina % return should stay. I only suggest to increase the 2% health return to 5%

Celless · April 2015

Agreed on Leeching Strikes being the unsexier of the morphs.

I tried to stack health like a boss (baus?) and when tanking, the perk of the 700 per swing did not outweigh the resource management of Siphoning Attacks (Siphoning heal bonus of Leeching Strikes and Swallow Soul with some Lord's +healing received - uncertain about the last one in hindsight). Versus say, blocking with Sap Essence and healing for the same amount plus healing allies and having a decent chance at recouping on resources.

I'm not too certain what ZoS could do to make this more appealing without making it too powerful or nerfing Siphoning Attacks. I do like the 5% health returned (or even a 4% return).

Shunravi · April 2015

Celless wrote: »

Agreed on Leeching Strikes being the unsexier of the morphs.

I tried to stack health like a boss (baus?) and when tanking, the perk of the 700 per swing did not outweigh the resource management of Siphoning Attacks (Siphoning heal bonus of Leeching Strikes and Swallow Soul with some Lord's +healing received - uncertain about the last one in hindsight). Versus say, blocking with Sap Essence and healing for the same amount plus healing allies and having a decent chance at recouping on resources.

I'm not too certain what ZoS could do to make this more appealing without making it too powerful or nerfing Siphoning Attacks. I do like the 5% health returned (or even a 4% return).

In a fabled past, 4% was what it was.

Nestor · April 2015

Every time I put a point into Leeching Strikes or it's Morphs, I regret it.

ShadowHvo · April 2015

Nestor wrote: »

Every time I put a point into Leeching Strikes or it's Morphs, I regret it.

Which is very depressing, it would be so sweet for it to actually work as a functional self-heal through the light and heavy strikes.

Nestor · April 2015

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Which is very depressing, it would be so sweet for it to actually work as a functional self-heal through the light and heavy strikes.

Here is the thing with that. I tend to weave light or heavy attacks with my Destro Staff, but never my blades. So, the reality is, only one weapon type would even give me a chance to regain attributes, and that is the one I use from a distance, so I don't need to regain attributes as much. If the Leech skill proc'd on all attacks, not just some on the Morph, that might make it better. I think a Bow would be the same way, but that is also a distance attack.

But, I find myself dieing more often with Leeching/Siphoning. Maybe because I expect the skill to give me more regen and my tactics suck because of it. But, if I slot another skill and fight pretty much the same way, then I live, the mobs die and everyone gets a cookie.

Cody · April 2015

well Agony is currently the great underdog of the siphoning tree, but im not arguing your point.

do it ZOS, make this change and give NBs a reliable self heal.

Cody · April 2015

Shunravi wrote: »

Celless wrote: »

Agreed on Leeching Strikes being the unsexier of the morphs.

I tried to stack health like a boss (baus?) and when tanking, the perk of the 700 per swing did not outweigh the resource management of Siphoning Attacks (Siphoning heal bonus of Leeching Strikes and Swallow Soul with some Lord's +healing received - uncertain about the last one in hindsight). Versus say, blocking with Sap Essence and healing for the same amount plus healing allies and having a decent chance at recouping on resources.

I'm not too certain what ZoS could do to make this more appealing without making it too powerful or nerfing Siphoning Attacks. I do like the 5% health returned (or even a 4% return).

In a fabled past, 4% was what it was.

it used to be 4% yes, but it got reduced to 2% for whatever ridiculous reason ZOS had.

Shunravi · April 2015

Cody wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Celless wrote: »

Agreed on Leeching Strikes being the unsexier of the morphs.

I tried to stack health like a boss (baus?) and when tanking, the perk of the 700 per swing did not outweigh the resource management of Siphoning Attacks (Siphoning heal bonus of Leeching Strikes and Swallow Soul with some Lord's +healing received - uncertain about the last one in hindsight). Versus say, blocking with Sap Essence and healing for the same amount plus healing allies and having a decent chance at recouping on resources.

I'm not too certain what ZoS could do to make this more appealing without making it too powerful or nerfing Siphoning Attacks. I do like the 5% health returned (or even a 4% return).

In a fabled past, 4% was what it was.

it used to be 4% yes, but ti got reduced to 2% for whatever ridiculous reason ZOS had.

Because they dont want nightblades to have heals?

Cody · April 2015

Shunravi wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Celless wrote: »

Agreed on Leeching Strikes being the unsexier of the morphs.

I tried to stack health like a boss (baus?) and when tanking, the perk of the 700 per swing did not outweigh the resource management of Siphoning Attacks (Siphoning heal bonus of Leeching Strikes and Swallow Soul with some Lord's +healing received - uncertain about the last one in hindsight). Versus say, blocking with Sap Essence and healing for the same amount plus healing allies and having a decent chance at recouping on resources.

I'm not too certain what ZoS could do to make this more appealing without making it too powerful or nerfing Siphoning Attacks. I do like the 5% health returned (or even a 4% return).

In a fabled past, 4% was what it was.

it used to be 4% yes, but ti got reduced to 2% for whatever ridiculous reason ZOS had.

Because they dont want nightblades to have heals?

i wont argue that.

it was not OP. only light attacks and heavy attacks procced it, meaning DPS went down the toilet if used.

who knows.

Sylveria_Relden · April 2015

INB4 Nerf NB calls. Oh wait, nvm that's already happening.

Cody · April 2015

Sylveria_Relden wrote: »

INB4 Nerf NB calls. Oh wait, nvm that's already happening.

indeed, now NBs are perma dodging fear spamming cloak spamming stealth spamming milk drinking attack spamming OP supermans that can destroy entire groups solo with their roll dodge OPness. Iwish , with my 12 month experience as a NB, was this OP:D I must be doing something wrong...

DKs will be next due to scales

then templars due to their heals.

then something else

Sylveria_Relden · April 2015

Yep, considering my main is a stamina NB and played since the release when they were absolutely horrible (you'd die if a mob looked at you) now she's finally VR1 because they brought balance changes back around, people are mad because NB's actually have a fair shot at surviving.

I'd have to agree that Leeching Strikes/Siphoning attacks have *always* been pretty lackluster- I usually stick to Swallow Soul and Drain Power for the entire Siphoning line and just skip the rest of the active skills.

I really wish they'd start auto-deleting nerf call threads, it's getting pretty ridiculous and the boards are swarming with them because of lack of active moderation.

jmoore59 · April 2015

Cody wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Celless wrote: »

Agreed on Leeching Strikes being the unsexier of the morphs.

I tried to stack health like a boss (baus?) and when tanking, the perk of the 700 per swing did not outweigh the resource management of Siphoning Attacks (Siphoning heal bonus of Leeching Strikes and Swallow Soul with some Lord's +healing received - uncertain about the last one in hindsight). Versus say, blocking with Sap Essence and healing for the same amount plus healing allies and having a decent chance at recouping on resources.

I'm not too certain what ZoS could do to make this more appealing without making it too powerful or nerfing Siphoning Attacks. I do like the 5% health returned (or even a 4% return).

In a fabled past, 4% was what it was.

it used to be 4% yes, but it got reduced to 2% for whatever ridiculous reason ZOS had.

Sadly it has always been 2%. At release the tooltip indeed said 4% but it would only heal for 2%. Instead of changing the ability they changed to tool tip.

Jaxom · April 2015

jmoore59 wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Celless wrote: »

Agreed on Leeching Strikes being the unsexier of the morphs.

I tried to stack health like a boss (baus?) and when tanking, the perk of the 700 per swing did not outweigh the resource management of Siphoning Attacks (Siphoning heal bonus of Leeching Strikes and Swallow Soul with some Lord's +healing received - uncertain about the last one in hindsight). Versus say, blocking with Sap Essence and healing for the same amount plus healing allies and having a decent chance at recouping on resources.

I'm not too certain what ZoS could do to make this more appealing without making it too powerful or nerfing Siphoning Attacks. I do like the 5% health returned (or even a 4% return).

In a fabled past, 4% was what it was.

it used to be 4% yes, but it got reduced to 2% for whatever ridiculous reason ZOS had.

Sadly it has always been 2%. At release the tooltip indeed said 4% but it would only heal for 2%. Instead of changing the ability they changed to tool tip.

Sad but true. It was slightly helpful when paired with Funnel Health. Back when the VR 6-10 content was insanely hard, it was the only way I was able to survive some of the story quests.

Night_Child · February 2016

This buff seems to definitely not be worth the trouble. As a matter a fact, one may argue that the "right" race gets the best use out of this move while all races (including the "right" race) should just really pass on it. For the record, I do agree that this move/buff AND NOT JUST THE TOOLTIP should be bumped up to 5% to give Nightblades (NB's) a little more of a fighting chance...in any scenerio.

As of right now, using the "right" race due to racial abilities and Sap Essence to overwrite the reduction of spell damage and actually giving your spell damage a 3% increase is the only chance this move has. However, the chances of this move still wouldn't be high at all, to say the least...just throwing it out there. Mundus stone(s), high magika/health stats, champion points, food, the right gear, the right traits, and drain life enchants can all be paired with and surround this move to help make it the least bit relevant. My question to ZOS primarily is why should anyone spend all their time, progress, and points to build around a buff that really isn't all that worth it? I mean every morph should be competitive to the next; and in all honesty according to the tooltip pic above, though (imho) leeching strikes is the better of the two for the fact that they say the SAME EXACT THING aside from leeching strikes giving us the 2% health, it's still not worth being called a morph. None of them are. Again, to make for better gameplay as well as better survivability for Nightblades, give us the 5% we're asking for and maybe give siphoning attacks a competitive morph as well. If you do the math, it really doesn't make NB's overpowered at all...not one bit. It even balances the scales a bit more making it less lackluster, ;-).

ThatNeonZebraAgain · February 2016

holy thread necro batman!

Posted this in my thread about Siphoning Attacks and NB tanking on the PTS forum:

@Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

Below is a way to change Leeching Strikes into the tanking morph while keeping base ability and Siphoning Attacks the same (in other words, catering to DPS/Healer roles). Also, note that the values are just suggestions, and mainly help to illustrate balancing mechanisms. Changes are bolded:

Leeching Strikes: Basic attacks restore 600 Magicka, Stamina, and Health. All other direct damage attacks have a 30% chance to restore 2181 Stamina and Magicka. While active, you deal 20% less damage. 2175 Magicka cost. 30 second duration.

New effects and rationales:

Lower stat return on basic attacks than SA since tanks try to limit dropping block, which also promotes DPS using SA for animation canceling. I wonder if eliminating the basic attack stat return could even be an option to further create a tradeoff. The health return on basic attacks does distinguish LS from SA, but is nonetheless essentially fluff because the values are a fraction of most HoT ticks and thus are inconsequential.
Increased proc chance to give tanks way to keep resources up now that it is only possible to get 1 proc chance at a time per mob (ie can't stack GTAoEDoTs with direct damage attacks). With this percentage, slightly less than 1/3 of your direct damage attacks would return resources (an amount that is often less than the cost of the ability itself). Depending on how effective this is, the recent ~10% increase to the value of the SA proc stat return could be reduced back to pre-2.3.2 values (1944 stam/mag), especially if the proc value was increased somewhat further. Also, if the basic attack part was eliminated, the proc could also include a %-based health return, which would benefit tanks since it scales of their higher max health pool.
Significant damage penalty to further promote use by tanks and create tradeoff for better resource management.
Longer duration because the buff timer mini-game is terrible design, and which would also make it roughly correspond to Mirage/Double Take's buff length. Longer duration also helps with resource management because it allows you to more easily recoup cost of ability itself and also cast it twice as less.
Toggle removed to be consistent with ZOS's overall strategy of eliminating toggles from the game.

Given the tradeoffs and possibilities I described, another option could be:

Leeching Strikes: All direct damage attacks (not including basic attacks) have a 35% chance to restore 3000 Stamina and Magicka, and heal you for 5% of your maximum Health. While active, you deal 25% less damage. 2175 Magicka cost. 30 second duration.

Again, numbers are just suggestions that show the balance concepts. The value of the stat return for this is roughly equivalent to combining the value of the basic attack stat return to the original proc value, which could happen for slightly more than 1/3 of your direct damage attacks. Now that mass proccing is very difficult to achieve, it would also be an option to return the stat return to be %-based of this morph. To give an idea of that, pre-IC update SA returned 15% of resources on proc. Basic attacks/animation canceling have no incentive since dropping block is dangerous to tanks and their groups. The health return is a heal and thus benefits from our +healing given/taken passives, and also scales of health, which caters to tanks; however, the value is still rather low compared to HoTs. Slightly larger damage penalty to create further tradeoff.

Night_Child · February 2016

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

holy thread necro batman!

Posted this in my thread about Siphoning Attacks and NB tanking on the PTS forum:

@Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

Below is a way to change Leeching Strikes into the tanking morph while keeping base ability and Siphoning Attacks the same (in other words, catering to DPS/Healer roles). Also, note that the values are just suggestions, and mainly help to illustrate balancing mechanisms. Changes are bolded:
Leeching Strikes: Basic attacks restore 600 Magicka, Stamina, and Health. All other direct damage attacks have a 30% chance to restore 2181 Stamina and Magicka. While active, you deal 20% less damage. 2175 Magicka cost. 30 second duration.

New effects and rationales:
Lower stat return on basic attacks than SA since tanks try to limit dropping block, which also promotes DPS using SA for animation canceling. I wonder if eliminating the basic attack stat return could even be an option to further create a tradeoff. The health return on basic attacks does distinguish LS from SA, but is nonetheless essentially fluff because the values are a fraction of most HoT ticks and thus are inconsequential.

Increased proc chance to give tanks way to keep resources up now that it is only possible to get 1 proc chance at a time per mob (ie can't stack GTAoEDoTs with direct damage attacks). With this percentage, slightly less than 1/3 of your direct damage attacks would return resources (an amount that is often less than the cost of the ability itself). Depending on how effective this is, the recent ~10% increase to the value of the SA proc stat return could be reduced back to pre-2.3.2 values (1944 stam/mag), especially if the proc value was increased somewhat further. Also, if the basic attack part was eliminated, the proc could also include a %-based health return, which would benefit tanks since it scales of their higher max health pool.

Significant damage penalty to further promote use by tanks and create tradeoff for better resource management.

Longer duration because the buff timer mini-game is terrible design, and which would also make it roughly correspond to Mirage/Double Take's buff length. Longer duration also helps with resource management because it allows you to more easily recoup cost of ability itself and also cast it twice as less.

Toggle removed to be consistent with ZOS's overall strategy of eliminating toggles from the game.

Given the tradeoffs and possibilities I described, another option could be:
Leeching Strikes: All direct damage attacks (not including basic attacks) have a 35% chance to restore 3000 Stamina and Magicka, and heal you for 5% of your maximum Health. While active, you deal 25% less damage. 2175 Magicka cost. 30 second duration.

Again, numbers are just suggestions that show the balance concepts. The value of the stat return for this is roughly equivalent to combining the value of the basic attack stat return to the original proc value, which could happen for slightly more than 1/3 of your direct damage attacks. Now that mass proccing is very difficult to achieve, it would also be an option to return the stat return to be %-based of this morph. To give an idea of that, pre-IC update SA returned 15% of resources on proc. Basic attacks/animation canceling have no incentive since dropping block is dangerous to tanks and their groups. The health return is a heal and thus benefits from our +healing given/taken passives, and also scales of health, which caters to tanks; however, the value is still rather low compared to HoTs. Slightly larger damage penalty to create further tradeoff.

I'd leave the damage reduction at 17%, drop it to 15% if not 10%, or remove it all together and make it a timed buff. Even with it removed, it still doesn't make for an OP NB. Also, you suggested direct numbers. They should stick with percentages. I think Leeching Strikes should read -

Leeching Strikes
Imbue your weapons with soul-stealing power. Each basic attack restores 3% of your maximum magika and stamina and has a 7% chance to restore all resources by 15%. Each attack also steals 5% health.

While toggled, your weapon damage and spell damage is reduced by 15%.

By all resources, of course I mean health, magika, and stamina. Also, as I already stated, they should remove the damage reduction and turn it into 30-45 second buff. If they want to keep it as a toggle, then lower it to 15% damage reduction. I'm sure this will be more than adequate for many Elder Scrolls Online players.

ShadowHvo · February 2016

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Toggle removed to be consistent with ZOS's overall strategy of eliminating toggles from the game.

I actually disagree with this, I find it to be a nice toggle with a very good trade-off, the only problem with Leeching Strikes (In my eyes) is that the health returned is such a low-percentage that it ain't worth slotting even for long PvE encounters.

When I heard they were going to increase the heal, I was excited, but sadly it was only increased to 3%, which still is very lackluster, and won't save anyone from getting killed.

In my mind, I believe a 5% would be a good fix, that would allow most people to use it on and off to regen little resources and health over long drawn-out fights in PvE, and even so in PvP to a certain degree.

It should however, remain a toggle in my mind.

ThatNeonZebraAgain · February 2016

ShadowHvo wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Toggle removed to be consistent with ZOS's overall strategy of eliminating toggles from the game.

I actually disagree with this, I find it to be a nice toggle with a very good trade-off, the only problem with Leeching Strikes (In my eyes) is that the health returned is such a low-percentage that it ain't worth slotting even for long PvE encounters.

When I heard they were going to increase the heal, I was excited, but sadly it was only increased to 3%, which still is very lackluster, and won't save anyone from getting killed.

In my mind, I believe a 5% would be a good fix, that would allow most people to use it on and off to regen little resources and health over long drawn-out fights in PvE, and even so in PvP to a certain degree.

It should however, remain a toggle in my mind.

The main weakness of toggles is they take up a slot on each bar. A buff, even on a 15s timer, only takes up 1 slot across both bars. This is very significant when you can only slot 5 abilities, and also means that the toggle has to be good enough to warrant a slot on both bars (which Leeching defnitely is not). That said, I don't know the internal reason why ZOS is slowly removing all toggles.

Even at 5% health return though, that is still a good deal less than most HoT ticks. The mag/stam return is also less than the other morph. So the problem remains, why waste the slots when other abilities fulfill those roles better.

ShadowHvo · February 2016

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

ShadowHvo wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Toggle removed to be consistent with ZOS's overall strategy of eliminating toggles from the game.

I actually disagree with this, I find it to be a nice toggle with a very good trade-off, the only problem with Leeching Strikes (In my eyes) is that the health returned is such a low-percentage that it ain't worth slotting even for long PvE encounters.

When I heard they were going to increase the heal, I was excited, but sadly it was only increased to 3%, which still is very lackluster, and won't save anyone from getting killed.

In my mind, I believe a 5% would be a good fix, that would allow most people to use it on and off to regen little resources and health over long drawn-out fights in PvE, and even so in PvP to a certain degree.

It should however, remain a toggle in my mind.

The main weakness of toggles is they take up a slot on each bar. A buff, even on a 15s timer, only takes up 1 slot across both bars. This is very significant when you can only slot 5 abilities, and also means that the toggle has to be good enough to warrant a slot on both bars (which Leeching defnitely is not). That said, I don't know the internal reason why ZOS is slowly removing all toggles.

Even at 5% health return though, that is still a good deal less than most HoT ticks. The mag/stam return is also less than the other morph. So the problem remains, why waste the slots when other abilities fulfill those roles better.

I believe it certainly would be a niche ability, but that ain't bad. I'm 99% sure that it can be workable if just the number of health returned was increased. You don't have to slot it on both bars, I certainly do not, and will not. It would really, (and should in my opinion) be an ability you activate solely to regen little stamina, magicka and the majority in health as a self-heal.

Really an ability you toggle when in need, get your resources back and then toggle it off once again for maximum damage efficiency.

But naturally, as with many other abilities, it depends on how you intend to use it, and wish to use it. Which in my case, a higher health returned in % would be enough.

worsttankever · February 2017

Does anyone know - do bonuses to % healing received (like from heavy armor passives) effect Leeching Strikes?

Brutusmax1mus · February 2017

worsttankever wrote: »

Does anyone know - do bonuses to % healing received (like from heavy armor passives) effect Leeching Strikes?

Yes

worsttankever · February 2017

Wow! 50k health and bow on my Nightblade. If it doesn't work on that build it probably never will lol.