In the end Champion System will become unbalanced

UPrime · April 2015

OP's post assumes that all development is stopping. Yes, there will be a gap over time. The question is how big will the gap be? And is there anything that needs to be done about it.

So why do it in the first place? I doubt that there will be many players that play a single game every day for a year or two. People naturally will drop the game after a while and maybe pick it up later. Sure there will be a few super dedicated players that will be super OP. But they're going to be the 1%er's of the population. I'm ok with that. If the gap is bigger though? the devs will re balance things.

drackonir · April 2015

Personally i will never be able to keep up with those at the front of CP grind but is fine. Time investment return etc.
For me the system sounds fair.
Some people want to have the same return for not doing anything just like in real life:

Garry spent years at the university + various courses and now after huge time investment he is earning a good money. As a result he can afford better things or/and more thing.
Tony did not feel like going to Uni, he wanted to earn money early to have spend them on whatever he desired. Now Tony is working as Security warden and his salary allows him cover all his basic needs. However, Tony complains all days that he should be entitles to the same money as Garry and be able to buy the same luxury goods?
Do we all agree that Tony i correct? Shall we reward all people equally and independently on their efforts?

ahstin2001nub18_ESO · April 2015

Keron wrote: »

The easy solution is to make the CP gain rate quicker over time. Say in half a year from now, you will need to earn only 200k exp for a point or 50k enlighted. A year from now you half it again, and so on. If this is too step, shorten the periods.

Yes, the established players will then also gain CP quicker, but the new players will much quicker close in to the decisive early on milestones. The difference will not be perceived as badly as it would be with the rates right now.

If I were the designer of this system, this would be what I'd plan.

my money is that this would be the very case. if they don't change the required experience amount, and add to the champion system's offerings (example: more armor/magicka/health to invest into), but continue to add to the mobs experience values, that the curve for CP acquisition will increase exponentially as one reaches end-game. this is coupled with the increased over-all power of the character. we can already see it now in a much less visible fashion- the more points into the system, the more powerful your character is, the less time it takes to kill high-experience mobs, the less time it takes to earn 1 CP. simply put, a player with 300 CP should earn CPs faster than someone with 0 CPs due to increases in over all character power.

i agree, that PVPers have a bit of a problem in the systems construction, but they now have viable PVE within cyrodill. how they use it is up to them. on the flip side, those that are willing to attempt to max out the CS, are highly unlikely to participate in PVP since they are not all that interested in PVP in general. not to mention they can now ambush PVEers interested in the cyrodill PVE aspects for potentially easier kills than a seasoned PVPer.

Xjcon · April 2015

Syntse wrote: »

BugCollector wrote: »

Players who play more than others will become more powerful

Isn't that normal? You put your time and effort to it and you will be more powerful.

Seems people want everyone to be equal no matter have they put 2 days or 2 years of their life into it.

I know right....those pesky productive members of society should never have a chance to keep up with the people who can play more then 8 hours a day.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO · April 2015

Xjcon wrote: »

Syntse wrote: »

BugCollector wrote: »

Players who play more than others will become more powerful

Isn't that normal? You put your time and effort to it and you will be more powerful.

Seems people want everyone to be equal no matter have they put 2 days or 2 years of their life into it.

I know right....those pesky productive members of society should never have a chance to keep up with the people who can play more then 8 hours a day.

if their time is better served outside of a game, shouldn't they stick to what they are good at? that's assuming they are "productive members of society" which is a relative term. kinda like saying dedicated gamers are a "productive member of society" within the game.... you do realize it is a social game right?

Eliteseraph · April 2015

TheShadowScout wrote: »

But I am having fun regardless, so... why should I care? Its pretty muhc the same in every other game I played as well, so why should I expect ESO be different?

I take issue with this.

You should care exactly BECAUSE it's the same in every other game. We won't start to have better game systems until people start giving a damn instead of rolling over and letting game companies continue to roll out garbage that isn't balanced.

If we want better games, we as consumers and gamers MUST start caring about things like this.

Acrolas · April 2015

They'll probably balance PVP by making it that you don't get Alliance Points from killing a much lower target. Those players would be seen with grayed-out health bars instead of red ones, and they'd see yours with the ornate harder-boss detailing.

Somebody is bound to complain about a noob party ganging up on him, but that's just PVP imitating PVE.

Xjcon · April 2015

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Xjcon wrote: »

Syntse wrote: »

BugCollector wrote: »

Players who play more than others will become more powerful

Isn't that normal? You put your time and effort to it and you will be more powerful.

Seems people want everyone to be equal no matter have they put 2 days or 2 years of their life into it.

I know right....those pesky productive members of society should never have a chance to keep up with the people who can play more then 8 hours a day.

if their time is better served outside of a game, shouldn't they stick to what they are good at? that's assuming they are "productive members of society" which is a relative term. kinda like saying dedicated gamers are a "productive member of society" within the game.... you do realize it is a social game right?

Is that why there is so much text scrolling by the lower left side of my screen? I had no clue....Thank you for clearing it up. I certainly wish I could sit around all day playing video games but at some point I had to move out on my own and pay my own bills.

I have nothing against anyone who plays the game but I don't think players should hold other players back simply because they may have more or less time to play.

golfer.dub17_ESO · April 2015

Garry spent years at the university + various courses and now after huge time investment he is earning a good money. As a result he can afford better things or/and more thing.
Tony did not feel like going to Uni, he wanted to earn money early to have spend them on whatever he desired. Now Tony is working as Security warden and his salary allows him cover all his basic needs. However, Tony complains all days that he should be entitles to the same money as Garry and be able to buy the same luxury goods?
Do we all agree that Tony i correct? Shall we reward all people equally and independently on their efforts?

I don't even know where to begin tearing apart that analogy.

All I'm going to say is that it amazes me some people can't tell the difference between a videogame and a real life career.

Guess I can't blame people for this with the market being the way it is.

Shooters for example used to start everyone out the exact same, leaving skill as the only factor to who wins and loses. Now even those are plagued with progression systems that reward time put in over actual effort put in.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO · April 2015

Xjcon wrote: »

Syntse wrote: »

BugCollector wrote: »

Players who play more than others will become more powerful

Isn't that normal? You put your time and effort to it and you will be more powerful.

Seems people want everyone to be equal no matter have they put 2 days or 2 years of their life into it.

I know right....those pesky productive members of society should never have a chance to keep up with the people who can play more then 8 hours a day.

followed by:

Xjcon wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Xjcon wrote: »

Syntse wrote: »

BugCollector wrote: »

Players who play more than others will become more powerful

Isn't that normal? You put your time and effort to it and you will be more powerful.

Seems people want everyone to be equal no matter have they put 2 days or 2 years of their life into it.

I know right....those pesky productive members of society should never have a chance to keep up with the people who can play more then 8 hours a day.

if their time is better served outside of a game, shouldn't they stick to what they are good at? that's assuming they are "productive members of society" which is a relative term. kinda like saying dedicated gamers are a "productive member of society" within the game.... you do realize it is a social game right?

Is that why there is so much text scrolling by the lower left side of my screen? I had no clue....Thank you for clearing it up. I certainly wish I could sit around all day playing video games but at some point I had to move out on my own and pay my own bills.

I have nothing against anyone who plays the game but I don't think players should hold other players back simply because they may have more or less time to play.

the bold highlights your sarcasm, which leads to the understanding that you have something against individuals who play 8 hours a day. get back on topic, your a more "productive member of society" when you aren't being a crusader fighting good versus evil in a video game forum, using oxymoronic arguments and terms based on relativity.

no, there should be no cap to CPs.

yes, i am selfish because i expect just rewards for time and effort invested

no, i don't care if you hate my "selfish nature"

yes, i do think its ironic that you say your selfishness trumps anothers selfishness

please, feel free to block me, ignore me, and discontinue any involvement with my life- you will be doing us both a great service.

Eliteseraph · April 2015

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

the bold highlights your sarcasm, which leads to the understanding that you have something against individuals who play 8 hours a day. get back on topic, your a more "productive member of society" when you aren't being a crusader fighting good versus evil in a video game forum, using oxymoronic arguments and terms based on relativity.

no, there should be no cap to CPs.

yes, i am selfish because i expect just rewards for time and effort invested

no, i don't care if you hate my "selfish nature"

yes, i do think its ironic that you say your selfishness trumps anothers selfishness

please, feel free to block me, ignore me, and discontinue any involvement with my life- you will be doing us both a great service.

I think the problem lies in the fact that the game rewards hours spent in the game rather than hours spent getting BETTER at the game.

There's a distinction between rewarding mindless grinding and rewarding the player for getting better at the game itself, especially when it comes to PVP. This is why any competitive gameplay inevitably is forced to provide players with equal footing.

ESO's cp system rewards mindless grinding. That's why it isn't a good system in terms of PVP or leaderboards. The person who's willing or able to spend more time grinding has a distinct advantage. Granted, a person with that kind of time would have a marginal advantage in terms of time spent training, but it wouldn't be a guarantee like the current system provides.

DaveMoeDee · April 2015

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

so, the argument here is that, over time, people who play the game more have a leg up on others...........i sometimes ask if people think things out, then i remember society is mostly filled with sheep

Yeah, I don't get the "I want to be the best without doing as much as others".

I do get this argument though - "I want a more balanced playing field in PvP where strategy becomes more important than endless leveling". My response to that is that this is an RPG. This is not COD. This is not DOTA 2 where everyone starts at zero each match. It is an RPG were you develop your character to be stronger. Having endgame be 3600 CP does seem a bit over the top, but Zenimax seems to have chosen their approach.

Personally, I like having more ways to tweak my character, but if I reach the point where I am PvP focused, I will probably not be a fan of the CP treadmill. I think CP are great though for something like raids, where these get easier for characters over time and can be augmented with harder trials.

DaveMoeDee · April 2015

MCMancub wrote: »

It won't last. Regardless of what principles apply, if new players (not even new players but any players who don't eat, sleep, and drink ESO) are struggling to keep up with the "all-day-every-day" players and are in turn leaving the game as a result, ZOS will change the system. It has nothing to do with what's right or wrong. It has to do with numbers.

I personally think you should be rewarded for your efforts, but I can easily see why it's a bad system in a video game.

It is good to hear you appreciating the merits of differing perspectives.

What percentage of players are actually worrying about keeping up or being at the top? Now that there is no sub, there will also be an increase in the more casual questers who will be more interested in new content than end game "I am the best" content. In fact, during my return to the game, I have been surprised by the number of people who have had a sub since launch but still don't have any VR14 characters.

There are games built for competitive individuals who don't have the time to develop characters. MOBAs are an example, as are various multiplayer FPS. Personally, I like the fact that more effort in ESO can translate in fractional benefits (which will be really small with diminishing returns), even if I will never be close to the top. If people want to grind, go for it, so long as you aren't blocking other people from completing quests.

MrGhosty · April 2015

The real point at which this becomes an actual argument is only in regards to PvP. So I suggest that they take a page out of Destiny's book and create a CPless campaign for those who feel they're at too much of a disadvantage.

For me personally, I don't really mind that the person who has the most time to spend in game is the most powerful, that is no different than in other games those players have the super powerful raid gear while those who don't have the time don't have the items. I'm all for a balanced competitive environment as that makes it the most enjoyable, but invalidating the work dedicated players put in is not the way it gets balanced.

Gemseed · April 2015

ITT: People want something for nothing.

I'm not anywhere near the top tier of the CP parade, and that is fine with me.

if somebody invests more time and effort into ESO they should have more to show for their efforts.

TheShadowScout · April 2015

Eliteseraph wrote: »

I take issue with this.

You should care exactly BECAUSE it's the same in every other game. We won't start to have better game systems until people start giving a damn instead of rolling over and letting game companies continue to roll out garbage that isn't balanced.

If we want better games, we as consumers and gamers MUST start caring about things like this.

Why does "balanced" have to mean every effort must be worth the same effect? Why do "better games" have to mean everyone ends up at the same level, no matter how much effort they put into it? Why must games stop rewarding any effort past reaching the max level?

I am saying, I do not care that people who put more effort into something then me end up being better at it then me, both for the extra skill of the player, and for the extra advancement earned by the character. That's how the world works after all, or should work at any rate - even the game world. If I play chess against someone who practiced for many years, I as a casual player will likely end up loosing (though I might improve experiencing a better level of gameplay). If I were to race a bicycle against my sporty brother, I'd loose very badly, simply because he does sports while I read books and play computer games. If I play a level 10 against a level 50, I likely will loose even if we both get boosted to the same effect, simply because they would have more skills and passives unlocked at their stage.

Again, why should I care that people who put in more of an effort at doing something end up being better at it then me? And why would you take issue with that I do not care about others ending up being better in the game as long as I have fun playing my characters???

As long as people earn it, I have no issue with them being better in the game then me. I'll just plod along, and have my fun earning some of that for myself as well. Might never catch up to the top for just not playing so much, or just not playing as effectively, but that is all right with me.

Now... if we were to talk about people who might earn c-points at a increased rate by excessive grinding... those I might have issues with for trying to gain an advantage without spending the full time on it. But that's another topic I posted about elsewhere once upon a time...

golfer.dub17_ESO · April 2015

I am saying, I do not care that people who put more effort into something then me end up being better at it then me, both for the extra skill of the player, and for the extra advancement earned by the character. That's how the world works after all, or should work at any rate - even the game world. If I play chess against someone who practiced for many years, I as a casual player will likely end up loosing (though I might improve experiencing a better level of gameplay). If I were to race a bicycle against my sporty brother, I'd loose very badly, simply because he does sports while I read books and play computer games. If I play a level 10 against a level 50, I likely will loose even if we both get boosted to the same effect, simply because they would have more skills and passives unlocked at their stage.

Yeah, except in chess both people have access to the same things, the master doesn't get twenty extra queens just because he's played for years longer, and the other person wouldn't be called an "entitled crybaby who doesn't want to put in any effort years of time" if he objected to the master getting additional pieces. The difference between the new player and the master is their knowledge of the game and skill at playing it, not the tools given to them. Just because they have equal tools doesn't detract from the skill of the master, or how much actual effort (not time, effort) either player has to put in.

Why do most games have some form of an end-cap? So players are eventually equal to one another to ensure fair ground. You treat the concept as strange and alien when most competitive games are based around it, which is what I find strange and alien.

badmojo · April 2015

All three alliances will have their fair share of new and veteran players.

WhimsyDragon · April 2015

BugCollector wrote: »

Players who play more than others will become more powerful

Um... isn't this how these games work though? The more you play, the more powerful you become, whether it's through leveling, skill points, champion points, armor/weapon upgrades, and whatever other accomplishments. That's why hardcore players usually have very robust, powerful characters. While it would be great if everyone has the ability to achieve the same goals with enough time and effort, the idea that everyone should automagically be granted the same level of awesomeness just for playing the game any amount of time doesn't even make sense to me. Yeah, the folks who accrue more champ points SHOULD become more powerful than others.

Now the part that gets murky for me is the account-wide champion point system. I think that everyone should start new characters on more-or-less equal footing (sure older players know what they're doing and might have access to money and so forth, but the same footing in terms of character abilities). The fact that some level 1 characters will have access to 300 champ points seems wild to me and it would create lots of imbalance issues -- too easy for those who actually use those points and the real newbies will feel weak in comparison through no fault of their own... unless I'm missing something about this system, which I admit I don't know an extensive amount about.

leshpar · April 2015

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

so, the argument here is that, over time, people who play the game more have a leg up on others...........i sometimes ask if people think things out, then i remember society is mostly filled with sheep

I agree with this. If you put more time into the game you should have more than someone who puts in less effort. I see nothing wrong with the current system, but then again I haven't gotten to experience it yet as I am a new player who came in during the WBW. This is all new to me, so right now I am focused on the journey, not the destination.

Imryll · April 2015

Syntse wrote: »

BugCollector wrote: »

Players who play more than others will become more powerful

Isn't that normal? You put your time and effort to it and you will be more powerful.

Seems people want everyone to be equal no matter have they put 2 days or 2 years of their life into it.

I don't think that folks expect to be "equal." The question is how large the gap can be between a veteran and a new player before you cease to attract new blood to competitive activities. I realize it's a hard line to walk--rewarding your veterans while keeping PvP accessible to newcomers. Veterans want to feel they're making progress, but few gamers aspire to serve as cannon fodder for any length of time.

hammerwinn · April 2015

The solution is simple. Make harder Content. And with harder content, increase the rewards. If there is a way around nerfing, always avoid the nerf in favor of creating something more challenging to the player base.

Think of CP as the new Veteran rank. Sure everyone now days calls for VR1-3 dungeon groups 5-9 dungeon groups and vr 14 dungeon groups.

As far as pvp goes... Go ahead and remove the CP points from the system. We scale for a reason. Competitiveness ... IE a lvl 45 going up against a VR12 is a fairly even match if u take away CP.

PVE wise... Keep the content going, make that CP actually needed... and we'll be fine.

Forestd16b14_ESO · April 2015

Yea this could be a problem down the road but in my opinion the devs are gonna do some tweeking now and again.... I do find some skills though a problem like the one that increase spell penetration. I think that's a problem now cause stack that with the LA passive and the nirnhond trait players are by-passing like what 10k or 15K worth of spell res. But again my thoughts that I think they need to look at.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO · April 2015

Eliteseraph wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

the bold highlights your sarcasm, which leads to the understanding that you have something against individuals who play 8 hours a day. get back on topic, your a more "productive member of society" when you aren't being a crusader fighting good versus evil in a video game forum, using oxymoronic arguments and terms based on relativity.

no, there should be no cap to CPs.

yes, i am selfish because i expect just rewards for time and effort invested

no, i don't care if you hate my "selfish nature"

yes, i do think its ironic that you say your selfishness trumps anothers selfishness

please, feel free to block me, ignore me, and discontinue any involvement with my life- you will be doing us both a great service.

I think the problem lies in the fact that the game rewards hours spent in the game rather than hours spent getting BETTER at the game.

There's a distinction between rewarding mindless grinding and rewarding the player for getting better at the game itself, especially when it comes to PVP. This is why any competitive gameplay inevitably is forced to provide players with equal footing.

ESO's cp system rewards mindless grinding. That's why it isn't a good system in terms of PVP or leaderboards. The person who's willing or able to spend more time grinding has a distinct advantage. Granted, a person with that kind of time would have a marginal advantage in terms of time spent training, but it wouldn't be a guarantee like the current system provides.

this i agree with to an extent,and voiced that concern prior to 1.6 launch. at first i was hard into grinding out CPs, but it soon lost its luster even in PVE once i hit a "good" spot in terms of amounts of CPs. in fact, i got 4 points currently standing by when i need to actually spend them. the system does give PVE'ers an edge in PVP, but most PVEers simply have little to no interest in PVP. even still, someone with the mental fortitude to endure the grind, should still be rewarded for it.

on the flip side, there is only team PVP, so expecting the system to be completely one sided, in terms of players with large amounts of CPs going up against those that don't, shouldn't be as bad as its made out to be. in other words, AD will have 10 over CPed players, but so will EP players. it should help counter that issue.

neueregel · April 2015

That guy over there... he makes way more money than me... He works 50 hours a week. I can only work 20 hours a week, but I should get paid the same amount of money each week that he does... or he should be capped at only being able to work 20 hours a week, because that is all I want to work.

timidobserver · April 2015

The only thing they have to do is tune the difficulty of future content higher. Maybe a 25-30k health minimum and 15-20k dps minimum for any future trials and or vet dungeons.

InvictoNZ · April 2015

The problem with every MMO I've played, is they increase the level cap or the damage in/out or add alternative advancement.

This makes some old content redundant and creates a huge void when you need to fill a gap in a raid group.

If only they could find something fun for players to do, instead of timesinks.

What we need is player generated content. (see Eve Online, diplomacy leading to content)

King Bozo · April 2015

Any game no matter what you are playing should reward those that put in the time peroid. Should for some reason you disagree put an ad on Craigslist and hire someone to do it for you If you don't want to put the time in game.

Xjcon · April 2015

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Xjcon wrote: »

Syntse wrote: »

BugCollector wrote: »

Players who play more than others will become more powerful

Isn't that normal? You put your time and effort to it and you will be more powerful.

Seems people want everyone to be equal no matter have they put 2 days or 2 years of their life into it.

I know right....those pesky productive members of society should never have a chance to keep up with the people who can play more then 8 hours a day.

followed by:

Xjcon wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Xjcon wrote: »

Syntse wrote: »

BugCollector wrote: »

Players who play more than others will become more powerful

Isn't that normal? You put your time and effort to it and you will be more powerful.

Seems people want everyone to be equal no matter have they put 2 days or 2 years of their life into it.

I know right....those pesky productive members of society should never have a chance to keep up with the people who can play more then 8 hours a day.

if their time is better served outside of a game, shouldn't they stick to what they are good at? that's assuming they are "productive members of society" which is a relative term. kinda like saying dedicated gamers are a "productive member of society" within the game.... you do realize it is a social game right?

Is that why there is so much text scrolling by the lower left side of my screen? I had no clue....Thank you for clearing it up. I certainly wish I could sit around all day playing video games but at some point I had to move out on my own and pay my own bills.

I have nothing against anyone who plays the game but I don't think players should hold other players back simply because they may have more or less time to play.

the bold highlights your sarcasm, which leads to the understanding that you have something against individuals who play 8 hours a day. get back on topic, your a more "productive member of society" when you aren't being a crusader fighting good versus evil in a video game forum, using oxymoronic arguments and terms based on relativity.

no, there should be no cap to CPs.

yes, i am selfish because i expect just rewards for time and effort invested

no, i don't care if you hate my "selfish nature"

yes, i do think its ironic that you say your selfishness trumps anothers selfishness

please, feel free to block me, ignore me, and discontinue any involvement with my life- you will be doing us both a great service.

Touched a nerve...... I don't want anyone held back I want you to have your advantage I think you deserve it. What happens tho as you gain so much of one that you will run out of new people willing to play because of it. But that's OK I guess as you stated it's selfishness.

firstdecan · April 2015

After reading this thread, I'm so glad I dropped my sub. I'm amazed at the number of people who think spending time in a video game is working for something and deserves a special reward. Something like that is fine for PvE, but has no place in PvP. Competition is performed on an equal footing. Your arguments that more time spent in the game should provide an artificial reward is like saying a professional sports team that has been in existence longer should start with extra points in the game. Something like that might help the Chicago Cubs finally take the World Series, but it would hardly be something that would improve the game of baseball.

Saying you deserve a special advantage in a competitive environment just because of time spent is basically admitting you're not interested in being competitive. ZoS should make it clear which audience their PvP is designed for, people who believe in fair competition or people who have no other outlet for ego gratification.