No incentive to do end game PVE!

Ser Lobo · April 2015

DDuke wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

I can see it now... they improve group pve incentives and all the players who prefer solo play or pvp come to cry that they now feel forced into group pve just to be on par with end game gear.

Fair point, and a circular argument. 'Encouraging' and 'rewarding' becomes 'forcing' when it comes to things like this. Hell, even if it's a vanity item that has no actual power effect, I've seen players complain about being forced to do something to get it.

I've always felt that if I don't enjoy doing something, it's not worth doing. I work all day every day. Working again to aquire something in a game is not part of my 'relax and rest' agenda. Which is why I'll do a raid or heist or epic dungeon once or twice for the challenge and achievement, and then completely ignore it afterwards. I am NOT going to grind for most gear.

One of the things ESO is so awesome about. For me to maintain a competitive edge, I don't have to clock in and work at a raid grind farm. I can craft it.

I'm all about rewards and incentives, but I feel a distinct difference between rewarding players for defeating difficult content, and rewarding them for grinding content. And of course, encouraging players to grind is exactly how most games maintain some semblance of continued participation and play.

The simple solution would be making all playstyles feel rewarding.

You like PvP? Ok, you'll get strong gear by doing it.
You like PvE? Ok, you'll get strong gear by doing it.
"Solo PvEr"? Ok, you'll get strong gear by doing it.

But, the trick here is that reward must match the challenge & effort put into said activity.

Someone sitting at a resource or keep leeching AP doesn't really do anything challenging. Should he get strong gear for doing that? No, not the strongest gear (but he should still get something).

Someone picking flowers & doing quests doesn't really do anything challenging either. Should he get the best rewards for doing that? No, but he should get something (e.g. gold with which he can purchase decent gear).

On the other hand, someone beats a difficult raid boss, which is something only a small percentage of player base manages to do. Should he get strong gear from that? Of course.

Fictional scenario: someone ranks top 1 in competitive 2v2/3v3 Arena leaderboard.
Should he get strong gear from that? Of course, he went through the effort of climbing the leaderboard and was skilled enough to do so.

Another fictional scenario: an extremely difficult solo dungeon is released. Only 0,1% of player base ever manages to complete it (and it is somehow magically balanced for every class & spec), should he get strong gear from that? Of course, if this ever became reality.

The next point of the discussion seems to obviously evolve into 'difficult by who's standard?'

Some players, such as myself, find AI to be mind-numbingly predictable. The challenge is in learning the AI's programmed set of abilities, and finding an adaptation to it ... something which usually takes one or two attempts before it's no longer a challenge.

But some players find the challenge of organizing a group of players and fighting AI with increadibly high hitpoint totals to be difficult and highly entertaining.

In my opinion, the ultimnate 'challenge' and 'achievement' is in legitimately fighting other players. But to say that many players absolutely hate PvP, or find the difficulty associated with it to be too overpowering, would be an understatement.

Still others feel that the challange is in sticking with a task, no matter how repetitive, working through repetitive events over a long period of time. As a powerlifter who must lift the same weight every day for years to make gains, I can understand this, even if it's not something I would personally consider 'worth it' in a video game.

In the end, whether a player is solo, grouped, grinding or doing a one-in-a-llifetime event, challenge and difficulty are defined largely by the individual. When you leave it up to others (in this case, ZOS) to decide what is worth rewarding, and what the weight of each type of playstyle is worth, you are being unfair to a section of the population who feels otherwise.

eliisra · April 2015

VR14 Master's Weapons from VDSA and Vicious Ophidian set from SO is clearly not useless. It's the best you can get for a few builds.

But I do agree with the topic, would be nice if trials has useful jewellery, weapons and sets for magicka users and tanks. ZoS itemization or current BiS, has always been totally random. I dont think there's anyone on the itemization team that takes stuff like effective builds into consideration, when pushing out or revamping gear. They're probably under the assumption that trial drops are really good lol.

Jules · April 2015

eliisra wrote: »

VR14 Master's Weapons from VDSA and Vicious Ophidian set from SO is clearly not useless. It's the best you can get for a few builds.

VDSA master weapons are indeed BIS for some builds. Vicious ophidian was mentioned. The foresight used in establishing these sets needs to be used on all sets and then trials gear might be worth a damn. I don't think the jewelry sets have EVER been worth it. Even when aether was king.

xMovingTarget · April 2015

Jules wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Dearest ZOS,
I don't want to just be a negative nancy, so first, some nice things. I'm happy with a lot of the changes you've made in recent months. Thank you for champion system. Thank you for undaunted sets. Thank you for my tiger mount. It's super cool.

That aside, I feel compelled to let you know that there is currently ZERO INCENTIVE to do end game PVE. ZERO. I'm not sure if this is how you intended it, or whether you just aren't aware, but the end game community is dying and there are multiple reasons as to why.

1) USELESS GEAR. ENTIRELY USELESS. it should be the best in the game. If not the best, it should be on par. It's not even a blip in the radar of cyrodiil's light, martial knowledge, morag tong, shadow walker ect ect ect. Maybe I'm naive, but as a PVE'er, I would think that the fact that I spend 85% of my gameplay in trials, I might wear some trials gear. However, I don't. And neither does the majority of the server. One trial gear set is used and rarely, vicious ophidian. Only one member of my end-game raiding team wears end-game trial gear. ONE. Please please please give us some spell/weapon dmg sets. This crit stuff has got to go. Please give us interesting, great sets like ravager and valkyns. Give us sets that can proc and things that we can test and assess.

2) EXPENSIVE ON POTS & REPAIR. Gear is deteriorating rapidly. Who knows if it's intended, who cares right? It's not that much gold but it's just another cost for repair kits. Tri pots 12-15k a stack and I go through about a stack or more a night. And potion bug makes it so they don't even always go off. Awesomesauce.

3) NO WAY TO MAKE GOLD Majority of the sets are not BIS. Dreugh king sells, sure. Skirmisher? Maybe. Doesn't even come close to outweighing the costs of actually running trials. Give us back warlock rings or desirable sets for others that we can sell to offset costs. The PVP'ers have sets we want. Give us sets they want. Help the economy flourish and keep the gold flow circular.

4) LEADERBOARDS Wiped multiple times due to exploited scores, okay. Let's do it again, whatever. But honestly, there's no point of being on leaderboards except bragging rights. After 7,8,9 months, that gets stale. Put guild names on LB's next to the score and give us some guild recognition and unity. Give better incentives for higher scores. Take away our incredibly high point scores from 1.5 that disqualifies us from getting new personal bests. My current scores are all 500,000+ from before leaderboard wipes meaning I never give notifications.

5) NO NEW CONTENT SINCE SEPTEMBER, 7 MONTHS AGO Probably the most important. We absolutely need more content. We have been challenged and overcome everything you've thrown at us. The lack of content might have been offset by the worthwhileness for gear or items to sell, however both aspects are completely lacking.

All of these things need to be said. Yes they've been said elsewhere and by others but Zos NEEDS to know that this is not one person with one dispute. These are the concerns and desperation of an entire community. Just look at the hundreds of people who have gone inactive in PVE. Look at the rise and subsequent deterioration of several high level raiding guilds due to inactivity and ultimately boredom.

I love this game, but this part of it is dying and you need to know that. If you don't care, then fine. Just let us know because we're hanging on by a thread here.

Moderator Note: Edited thread title to promote a more constructive discussion.

Totally agree dude (I had to, forgive me)

This game gets very old lately. To a point I dont even have an incentive to log in.. Sadly

Lol. This kid...
& yeah you're right. I've been getting into PVP and leveling w lowbie in the interim. But my favorite part of this game was always progression raiding. Just sucks cause we've put so much time and effort into characters in a game that feels stale.

Anyway, you should level a sorc moving! Name it xBlinkingTarget

I have that lvl 30 sorc called Nooby McBoon

Good. Expecting OP sorc vids soon then you noob.

Pff, if I ever feel like leveling dude

Ley · April 2015

DDuke wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

I can see it now... they improve group pve incentives and all the players who prefer solo play or pvp come to cry that they now feel forced into group pve just to be on par with end game gear.

Fair point, and a circular argument. 'Encouraging' and 'rewarding' becomes 'forcing' when it comes to things like this. Hell, even if it's a vanity item that has no actual power effect, I've seen players complain about being forced to do something to get it.

I've always felt that if I don't enjoy doing something, it's not worth doing. I work all day every day. Working again to aquire something in a game is not part of my 'relax and rest' agenda. Which is why I'll do a raid or heist or epic dungeon once or twice for the challenge and achievement, and then completely ignore it afterwards. I am NOT going to grind for most gear.

One of the things ESO is so awesome about. For me to maintain a competitive edge, I don't have to clock in and work at a raid grind farm. I can craft it.

I'm all about rewards and incentives, but I feel a distinct difference between rewarding players for defeating difficult content, and rewarding them for grinding content. And of course, encouraging players to grind is exactly how most games maintain some semblance of continued participation and play.

The simple solution would be making all playstyles feel rewarding.

You like PvP? Ok, you'll get strong gear by doing it.
You like PvE? Ok, you'll get strong gear by doing it.
"Solo PvEr"? Ok, you'll get strong gear by doing it.

But, the trick here is that reward must match the challenge & effort put into said activity.

Someone sitting at a resource or keep leeching AP doesn't really do anything challenging. Should he get strong gear for doing that? No, not the strongest gear (but he should still get something).

Someone picking flowers & doing quests doesn't really do anything challenging either. Should he get the best rewards for doing that? No, but he should get something (e.g. gold with which he can purchase decent gear).

On the other hand, someone beats a difficult raid boss, which is something only a small percentage of player base manages to do. Should he get strong gear from that? Of course.

Fictional scenario: someone ranks top 1 in competitive 2v2/3v3 Arena leaderboard.
Should he get strong gear from that? Of course, he went through the effort of climbing the leaderboard and was skilled enough to do so.

Another fictional scenario: an extremely difficult solo dungeon is released. Only 0,1% of player base ever manages to complete it (and it is somehow magically balanced for every class & spec), should he get strong gear from that? Of course, if this ever became reality.

Problem is, unless pvp, pve and solo pve gave the same exact rewards, then players would complain.
"I need that pvp set for my build but refuse to pvp for it."
"I want the group pve set but refuse to group with other players."
"I refuse to to anything but pvp but want the pve sets."

If they did give the exact same rewards for all end game content, players will take the path of least resistance, most likely an option that lets them solo pve for the best items in game. This will discourage group play and give less incentive to complete various content.

No matter how they reward players, there will always be players who want it changed to better suit their play style.

Emma_Overload · April 2015

Amazing that PvE raiders are complaining after ZoS built them exactly the game they said they wanted... sheesh!

1) Unhappy that you can't get the gear you need because there is no functioning market for it? Guess you guys shouldn't have demanded rewards that were BoP and locked behind group-gated content! I can't even count the number of posts I've seen from raid snobs defending this disgusting practice, and now we're supposed feel sad you can't buy the gear YOU want?

2) Unhappy about waiting for new content and zones? In case you've forgotten, they built Craglorn for YOU, using resources that would have been much better spent providing content to the broader population of solo players and casual groupers. Well, new content IS coming out, and hopefully it will meet the needs and desires of solo/casual players who have been waiting MUCH longer than you for a true endgame experience.

3) Unhappy about the high cost of tri-stat potions? Quit using them! Of course, that would mean discovering that mindless potion-chugging accounts for a big chunk of your DPS. I bet you thought it was your elite skills that were giving you an extra 2000 DPS all this time! LOL... please.

DDuke · April 2015

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

I can see it now... they improve group pve incentives and all the players who prefer solo play or pvp come to cry that they now feel forced into group pve just to be on par with end game gear.

Fair point, and a circular argument. 'Encouraging' and 'rewarding' becomes 'forcing' when it comes to things like this. Hell, even if it's a vanity item that has no actual power effect, I've seen players complain about being forced to do something to get it.

I've always felt that if I don't enjoy doing something, it's not worth doing. I work all day every day. Working again to aquire something in a game is not part of my 'relax and rest' agenda. Which is why I'll do a raid or heist or epic dungeon once or twice for the challenge and achievement, and then completely ignore it afterwards. I am NOT going to grind for most gear.

One of the things ESO is so awesome about. For me to maintain a competitive edge, I don't have to clock in and work at a raid grind farm. I can craft it.

I'm all about rewards and incentives, but I feel a distinct difference between rewarding players for defeating difficult content, and rewarding them for grinding content. And of course, encouraging players to grind is exactly how most games maintain some semblance of continued participation and play.

The simple solution would be making all playstyles feel rewarding.

You like PvP? Ok, you'll get strong gear by doing it.
You like PvE? Ok, you'll get strong gear by doing it.
"Solo PvEr"? Ok, you'll get strong gear by doing it.

But, the trick here is that reward must match the challenge & effort put into said activity.

Someone sitting at a resource or keep leeching AP doesn't really do anything challenging. Should he get strong gear for doing that? No, not the strongest gear (but he should still get something).

Someone picking flowers & doing quests doesn't really do anything challenging either. Should he get the best rewards for doing that? No, but he should get something (e.g. gold with which he can purchase decent gear).

On the other hand, someone beats a difficult raid boss, which is something only a small percentage of player base manages to do. Should he get strong gear from that? Of course.

Fictional scenario: someone ranks top 1 in competitive 2v2/3v3 Arena leaderboard.
Should he get strong gear from that? Of course, he went through the effort of climbing the leaderboard and was skilled enough to do so.

Another fictional scenario: an extremely difficult solo dungeon is released. Only 0,1% of player base ever manages to complete it (and it is somehow magically balanced for every class & spec), should he get strong gear from that? Of course, if this ever became reality.

The next point of the discussion seems to obviously evolve into 'difficult by who's standard?'

Some players, such as myself, find AI to be mind-numbingly predictable. The challenge is in learning the AI's programmed set of abilities, and finding an adaptation to it ... something which usually takes one or two attempts before it's no longer a challenge.

But some players find the challenge of organizing a group of players and fighting AI with increadibly high hitpoint totals to be difficult and highly entertaining.

In my opinion, the ultimnate 'challenge' and 'achievement' is in legitimately fighting other players. But to say that many players absolutely hate PvP, or find the difficulty associated with it to be too overpowering, would be an understatement.

Still others feel that the challange is in sticking with a task, no matter how repetitive, working through repetitive events over a long period of time. As a powerlifter who must lift the same weight every day for years to make gains, I can understand this, even if it's not something I would personally consider 'worth it' in a video game.

In the end, whether a player is solo, grouped, grinding or doing a one-in-a-llifetime event, challenge and difficulty are defined largely by the individual. When you leave it up to others (in this case, ZOS) to decide what is worth rewarding, and what the weight of each type of playstyle is worth, you are being unfair to a section of the population who feels otherwise.

If the AI was mind-numbingly predictable and this content wasn't challenging, sure enough more guilds would be able to complete it?

There are plenty of guilds still unable to even beat Manticora, and Serpent hardmode has been done only by minority of players.

I think the facts demonstrate what is difficult and what is not. For a good example, only about 2% of player population ever entered Naxxramas during the vanilla WoW period, despite there being huge interest in the raiding scene (same as here in ESO). The difference is, most people were still working on BWL/AQ when Naxxramas released.
If fighting this "mind numbingly predictable AI that takes one or two attempts to figure out" was easy, surely most people would've completed Naxxramas? Surely it wouldn't have taken 5 months for the first people to clear Molten Core?

Difficulty in this matter is determined by how feasible to the general populace something is, and numbers don't lie.
If you feel something is easy, cool. You should have no problem in doing this content & reaping the rewards (unlike the major populace). Be happy.

But yes, I agree that raid content on ESO is too easy.
There is a distinct lack of a progression curve that is evident in other, more successful MMOs & their raids.

We can only hope ZOS does a better job with their future end game content, and hopefully that content lasts longer than 15-30 mins and has more bosses, each with a good loot table and real reasons to kill them.

Ley wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

I can see it now... they improve group pve incentives and all the players who prefer solo play or pvp come to cry that they now feel forced into group pve just to be on par with end game gear.

Fair point, and a circular argument. 'Encouraging' and 'rewarding' becomes 'forcing' when it comes to things like this. Hell, even if it's a vanity item that has no actual power effect, I've seen players complain about being forced to do something to get it.

I've always felt that if I don't enjoy doing something, it's not worth doing. I work all day every day. Working again to aquire something in a game is not part of my 'relax and rest' agenda. Which is why I'll do a raid or heist or epic dungeon once or twice for the challenge and achievement, and then completely ignore it afterwards. I am NOT going to grind for most gear.

One of the things ESO is so awesome about. For me to maintain a competitive edge, I don't have to clock in and work at a raid grind farm. I can craft it.

I'm all about rewards and incentives, but I feel a distinct difference between rewarding players for defeating difficult content, and rewarding them for grinding content. And of course, encouraging players to grind is exactly how most games maintain some semblance of continued participation and play.

The simple solution would be making all playstyles feel rewarding.

You like PvP? Ok, you'll get strong gear by doing it.
You like PvE? Ok, you'll get strong gear by doing it.
"Solo PvEr"? Ok, you'll get strong gear by doing it.

But, the trick here is that reward must match the challenge & effort put into said activity.

Someone sitting at a resource or keep leeching AP doesn't really do anything challenging. Should he get strong gear for doing that? No, not the strongest gear (but he should still get something).

Someone picking flowers & doing quests doesn't really do anything challenging either. Should he get the best rewards for doing that? No, but he should get something (e.g. gold with which he can purchase decent gear).

On the other hand, someone beats a difficult raid boss, which is something only a small percentage of player base manages to do. Should he get strong gear from that? Of course.

Fictional scenario: someone ranks top 1 in competitive 2v2/3v3 Arena leaderboard.
Should he get strong gear from that? Of course, he went through the effort of climbing the leaderboard and was skilled enough to do so.

Another fictional scenario: an extremely difficult solo dungeon is released. Only 0,1% of player base ever manages to complete it (and it is somehow magically balanced for every class & spec), should he get strong gear from that? Of course, if this ever became reality.

Problem is, unless pvp, pve and solo pve gave the same exact rewards, then players would complain.
"I need that pvp set for my build but refuse to pvp for it."
"I want the group pve set but refuse to group with other players."
"I refuse to to anything but pvp but want the pve sets."

If they did give the exact same rewards for all end game content, players will take the path of least resistance, most likely an option that lets them solo pve for the best items in game. This will discourage group play and give less incentive to complete various content.

No matter how they reward players, there will always be players who want it changed to better suit their play style.

PvE gear achieved via PvE should be more tailored towards PvE (but not useless in PvP).
PvP gear achieved via PvP should be more tailored towards PvP (but not useless in PvE).

Simply put: gear achieved should suit the playstyle it was achieved with, while still allowing flexibility to transition to other playstyles & encourage trying out new things.

Atleast that is how the successful MMOs have done it.

The main point is that challenge+effort=reward, everything else if just fine-tuning.

SRIBES · April 2015

Didn't even read, ik what you're going to say is BS here's why:
Undaunted passives.
Trial gear.
Daily gear.
DSA master weapons.
Cash from selling loot.

DDuke · April 2015

ChannelTribes wrote: »

Didn't even read
-snip-

That's really the only sensible thing you wrote. Go read before commenting.

Ser Lobo · April 2015

I get the point of your reply, that general difficulty can be discovered by gauging the majority of the population.

I will again caution against 'power creep', which is how successful MMO's keep players buying the next expansion. Its great for marketing and merchandising, but it's absolutely horrible on maintaining the integrity of the gamesystem for day-1 players to veteran players, and can distort game mechanics by such a large degree that often the entire engine needs to be rewritten (SWG, EQ, WOW, etc) at some point.

That 'carrot and the stick' approach that MMO players seem to require in order to convince them to continue playing is a self-destructing path.

I loved the loot function of Destiny. Right up until the release of that first expansion which made all the gear I'd worked to get completely underpowered. 'Time to work again' worked on me twenty years ago when I was in school and didn't know what work really was. Now it's just not worth the time.

Will they maintain more players by creating a classic loot grind? Raid repetitively to get better gear until the next expansion releases to start over again?

I don't know. But I was so happy when ESO decided that they were going to do something different. And they still can, if they focus rewards not on the gear and the base power of the character, but on extra abilities or vanity.

xMovingTarget · April 2015

ChannelTribes wrote: »

Didn't even read, ik what you're going to say is BS here's why:
Undaunted passives.
Trial gear.
Daily gear.
DSA master weapons.
Cash from selling loot.

same as pvpers get.
Except undaunted passives. I ignored daily gear. Its utter useless. The rest is the same as pve'ers get. So stop complaining. Campaign rewards are trial gear, master weapons too.

bosmern_ESO · April 2015

Uhm...

Masters weapons
Vicious sets from Sanctum Ophidia
shoulder/helmet sets from undaunted

for money? Warlock pieces only drop in PvE.

Fissh · April 2015

Quick attention fixes to give us hope and keep what's left of this kind of player to stay in game:

Step 1:
- Good- Acknowledge these kind of threads, @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, get the appropriate dev on these threads ladies. The community is asking for it.
- Better- After acknowledgement, state your intentions. Be clear, have timeline, and implement.
-Best- "Hey guys, never fear, we have been listening and have made some gear optimizations and Trial XP gains that you will see in the next incrimental patch or two"

Step 2:
-Once, at the least, ZoS has done the "good", use these incrimental patches you have been doing every Monday with game polishes to make some small changes as well in the 'endgame' zone. Change a set or two to reflect your new Meta.
-Continue once a week to 'polish' your optimization of gear in Endgame to represent YOUR new game Meta.

Step 3:
-REALIZE THAT PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO BE FORCED TO DO PVP VS PVE. The gain or progression, the gear optimization, should have some equal aspects regardless of your choice of play style. Accommodate equally your population. Simply put: LEARN HOW TO ADDRESS ENDGAMER NEEDS. The alternative is to have people get to endgame, get bored, and leave. Only so many people are going to hang out for years doing RP or grinding the same PvP to get to rank 50. REALIZE YOUR COMMUNITY IS A MIX OF PEOPLE.

Fissh · April 2015

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

Uhm...

Masters weapons
Vicious sets from Sanctum Ophidia
shoulder/helmet sets from undaunted

for money? Warlock pieces only drop in PvE.

Master Weapons: I have completed vDSA in the 100s of times. I have yet to have a weapon with the correct trait. There are even a few of them I haven't seen drop.

Vicious sets: Not BiS. Barely viable.

Shoulder/Helmet: Same as master weapons. First of all, it is 4man material. Doesn't exactly cover the needs of us progression guilds that like to do large scale PVE. Second, the drop rate and trait bullcrappo makes the farm for such gear incredibly tedious. However, I still in fact farm it for such. Simply some versions of these to Trials....wa la.

Warlock pieces: LMAO. Do you even know the drop rate of rings? LOLOLOLOLOL

Lastly: the value of things you suggest does not even compare to what PVP gear is valued. Martial Knowledge, Morug Tong, Cryodiil Light, Ravager's..... I mean the list is long and valuable. You suggest things that people of a year very much know about. You need better suggestions

Ley · April 2015

DDuke wrote: »

PvE gear achieved via PvE should be more tailored towards PvE (but not useless in PvP).
PvP gear achieved via PvP should be more tailored towards PvP (but not useless in PvE).

Simply put: gear achieved should suit the playstyle it was achieved with, while still allowing flexibility to transition to other playstyles & encourage trying out new things.

Atleast that is how the successful MMOs have done it.

The main point is that challenge+effort=reward, everything else if just fine-tuning.

That would be great, it would require a complete revamp of nearly all existing gear sets but I agree would solve the issue.

amasuriel · April 2015

Yeah its a bad situation. Like a lot of players I tend to log in for an hour, maybe do a pledge then log out.

Pledges are annoying to find a group for, and don't hold much appeal for long..once you have maxxed your undaunted rank you really going to try for a decent set? I have done ~40 vet pledges in the last month (2 characters). Lots of shoulders. No Helm. Even if I do get a helm, probably the wrong armor type with a crap trait, so why bother factor is high.

Trails? Even if I was in a guild that did them, I might run once for the achievement. The loot is a joke. The XP is terrible even after the increase. Why would I do that?

PvP? I thought about PvPing to at least get Vigor, but I calculated it would take me 134871389471934790813 hours solo / zerging or 2934690314607139 hours in a good group. This would be fine if pvp was awesome, but ride 5 min, fight for 5 min, die and repeat or win and repeat over the same 3 keeps? Meh.

For the "do it for the fun" people, most of these activities are not fun for long. The first time or 2 through a vet dungeon its fun. Time #20 you are bored stupid. Same with PvP (at least for me). The first 40-50 hours was pretty great, now I pvp for an hour now or then and remember why I stopped.

So the issue is its not very fun after the novelty wears off, and there is no sense of accomplishment to drag it out a little further after that.

Why is this an issue though? Most people don't come back. If I put down ESO for 6 months the chance of me returning is slim. I bet the numbers on returning players sticking with MMOs is pretty bad too, so for the most part once people are gone, they are gone.

Whatever, based on the lack of activity either they sacked most of the dev team already, or they have a huge team working on console. Either way the titanic is not going to suddenly swerve at this point. They are locked in hoping the console release is enough.

Jules · April 2015

ChannelTribes wrote: »

Didn't even read, ik what you're going to say is BS here's why:
Undaunted passives.
Trial gear.
Daily gear.
DSA master weapons.
Cash from selling loot.

Lol. I think you are confusing PVE with end game bro. They are similar but still different entities.

1) Undaunted passives are great. And?
2) Trial gear - 99% trash
3) Daily gear - no but srsly. Do you even eso? Undaunted unweaver ftw

4) Masters weapons are good depending on which. Also offered in PVP as campaign rewards, so moot
5) WUT LOOT?

Jules · April 2015

Fissh wrote: »

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

Uhm...

Masters weapons
Vicious sets from Sanctum Ophidia
shoulder/helmet sets from undaunted

for money? Warlock pieces only drop in PvE.

Master Weapons: I have completed vDSA in the 100s of times. I have yet to have a weapon with the correct trait. There are even a few of them I haven't seen drop.

Vicious sets: Not BiS. Barely viable.

Shoulder/Helmet: Same as master weapons. First of all, it is 4man material. Doesn't exactly cover the needs of us progression guilds that like to do large scale PVE. Second, the drop rate and trait bullcrappo makes the farm for such gear incredibly tedious. However, I still in fact farm it for such. Simply some versions of these to Trials....wa la.

Warlock pieces: LMAO. Do you even know the drop rate of rings? LOLOLOLOLOL

Lastly: the value of things you suggest does not even compare to what PVP gear is valued. Martial Knowledge, Morug Tong, Cryodiil Light, Ravager's..... I mean the list is long and valuable. You suggest things that people of a year very much know about. You need better suggestions

Srsly. People are not educated on this matter at all before making suggestions.

Jules · April 2015

DDuke wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

I can see it now... they improve group pve incentives and all the players who prefer solo play or pvp come to cry that they now feel forced into group pve just to be on par with end game gear.

Fair point, and a circular argument. 'Encouraging' and 'rewarding' becomes 'forcing' when it comes to things like this. Hell, even if it's a vanity item that has no actual power effect, I've seen players complain about being forced to do something to get it.

I've always felt that if I don't enjoy doing something, it's not worth doing. I work all day every day. Working again to aquire something in a game is not part of my 'relax and rest' agenda. Which is why I'll do a raid or heist or epic dungeon once or twice for the challenge and achievement, and then completely ignore it afterwards. I am NOT going to grind for most gear.

One of the things ESO is so awesome about. For me to maintain a competitive edge, I don't have to clock in and work at a raid grind farm. I can craft it.

I'm all about rewards and incentives, but I feel a distinct difference between rewarding players for defeating difficult content, and rewarding them for grinding content. And of course, encouraging players to grind is exactly how most games maintain some semblance of continued participation and play.

The simple solution would be making all playstyles feel rewarding.

You like PvP? Ok, you'll get strong gear by doing it.
You like PvE? Ok, you'll get strong gear by doing it.
"Solo PvEr"? Ok, you'll get strong gear by doing it.

But, the trick here is that reward must match the challenge & effort put into said activity.

Someone sitting at a resource or keep leeching AP doesn't really do anything challenging. Should he get strong gear for doing that? No, not the strongest gear (but he should still get something).

Someone picking flowers & doing quests doesn't really do anything challenging either. Should he get the best rewards for doing that? No, but he should get something (e.g. gold with which he can purchase decent gear).

On the other hand, someone beats a difficult raid boss, which is something only a small percentage of player base manages to do. Should he get strong gear from that? Of course.

Fictional scenario: someone ranks top 1 in competitive 2v2/3v3 Arena leaderboard.
Should he get strong gear from that? Of course, he went through the effort of climbing the leaderboard and was skilled enough to do so.

Another fictional scenario: an extremely difficult solo dungeon is released. Only 0,1% of player base ever manages to complete it (and it is somehow magically balanced for every class & spec), should he get strong gear from that? Of course, if this ever became reality.

The next point of the discussion seems to obviously evolve into 'difficult by who's standard?'

Some players, such as myself, find AI to be mind-numbingly predictable. The challenge is in learning the AI's programmed set of abilities, and finding an adaptation to it ... something which usually takes one or two attempts before it's no longer a challenge.

But some players find the challenge of organizing a group of players and fighting AI with increadibly high hitpoint totals to be difficult and highly entertaining.

In my opinion, the ultimnate 'challenge' and 'achievement' is in legitimately fighting other players. But to say that many players absolutely hate PvP, or find the difficulty associated with it to be too overpowering, would be an understatement.

Still others feel that the challange is in sticking with a task, no matter how repetitive, working through repetitive events over a long period of time. As a powerlifter who must lift the same weight every day for years to make gains, I can understand this, even if it's not something I would personally consider 'worth it' in a video game.

In the end, whether a player is solo, grouped, grinding or doing a one-in-a-llifetime event, challenge and difficulty are defined largely by the individual. When you leave it up to others (in this case, ZOS) to decide what is worth rewarding, and what the weight of each type of playstyle is worth, you are being unfair to a section of the population who feels otherwise.

If the AI was mind-numbingly predictable and this content wasn't challenging, sure enough more guilds would be able to complete it?

There are plenty of guilds still unable to even beat Manticora, and Serpent hardmode has been done only by minority of players.

I think the facts demonstrate what is difficult and what is not. For a good example, only about 2% of player population ever entered Naxxramas during the vanilla WoW period, despite there being huge interest in the raiding scene (same as here in ESO). The difference is, most people were still working on BWL/AQ when Naxxramas released.
If fighting this "mind numbingly predictable AI that takes one or two attempts to figure out" was easy, surely most people would've completed Naxxramas? Surely it wouldn't have taken 5 months for the first people to clear Molten Core?

Difficulty in this matter is determined by how feasible to the general populace something is, and numbers don't lie.
If you feel something is easy, cool. You should have no problem in doing this content & reaping the rewards (unlike the major populace). Be happy.

But yes, I agree that raid content on ESO is too easy.
There is a distinct lack of a progression curve that is evident in other, more successful MMOs & their raids.

We can only hope ZOS does a better job with their future end game content, and hopefully that content lasts longer than 15-30 mins and has more bosses, each with a good loot table and real reasons to kill them.

Ley wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

I can see it now... they improve group pve incentives and all the players who prefer solo play or pvp come to cry that they now feel forced into group pve just to be on par with end game gear.

Fair point, and a circular argument. 'Encouraging' and 'rewarding' becomes 'forcing' when it comes to things like this. Hell, even if it's a vanity item that has no actual power effect, I've seen players complain about being forced to do something to get it.

I've always felt that if I don't enjoy doing something, it's not worth doing. I work all day every day. Working again to aquire something in a game is not part of my 'relax and rest' agenda. Which is why I'll do a raid or heist or epic dungeon once or twice for the challenge and achievement, and then completely ignore it afterwards. I am NOT going to grind for most gear.

One of the things ESO is so awesome about. For me to maintain a competitive edge, I don't have to clock in and work at a raid grind farm. I can craft it.

I'm all about rewards and incentives, but I feel a distinct difference between rewarding players for defeating difficult content, and rewarding them for grinding content. And of course, encouraging players to grind is exactly how most games maintain some semblance of continued participation and play.

The simple solution would be making all playstyles feel rewarding.

You like PvP? Ok, you'll get strong gear by doing it.
You like PvE? Ok, you'll get strong gear by doing it.
"Solo PvEr"? Ok, you'll get strong gear by doing it.

But, the trick here is that reward must match the challenge & effort put into said activity.

Someone sitting at a resource or keep leeching AP doesn't really do anything challenging. Should he get strong gear for doing that? No, not the strongest gear (but he should still get something).

Someone picking flowers & doing quests doesn't really do anything challenging either. Should he get the best rewards for doing that? No, but he should get something (e.g. gold with which he can purchase decent gear).

On the other hand, someone beats a difficult raid boss, which is something only a small percentage of player base manages to do. Should he get strong gear from that? Of course.

Fictional scenario: someone ranks top 1 in competitive 2v2/3v3 Arena leaderboard.
Should he get strong gear from that? Of course, he went through the effort of climbing the leaderboard and was skilled enough to do so.

Another fictional scenario: an extremely difficult solo dungeon is released. Only 0,1% of player base ever manages to complete it (and it is somehow magically balanced for every class & spec), should he get strong gear from that? Of course, if this ever became reality.

Problem is, unless pvp, pve and solo pve gave the same exact rewards, then players would complain.
"I need that pvp set for my build but refuse to pvp for it."
"I want the group pve set but refuse to group with other players."
"I refuse to to anything but pvp but want the pve sets."

If they did give the exact same rewards for all end game content, players will take the path of least resistance, most likely an option that lets them solo pve for the best items in game. This will discourage group play and give less incentive to complete various content.

No matter how they reward players, there will always be players who want it changed to better suit their play style.

PvE gear achieved via PvE should be more tailored towards PvE (but not useless in PvP).
PvP gear achieved via PvP should be more tailored towards PvP (but not useless in PvE).

Simply put: gear achieved should suit the playstyle it was achieved with, while still allowing flexibility to transition to other playstyles & encourage trying out new things.

Atleast that is how the successful MMOs have done it.

The main point is that challenge+effort=reward, everything else if just fine-tuning.

definitely THIS. tailor PVE gear to PVE and PVP to PVP. Voila.

Legedric · April 2015

Jules wrote: »

5) NO NEW CONTENT SINCE SEPTEMBER, 7 MONTHS AGO

Complaining about not having new content for 7 months...

Us PvP players are wating for new content since... beta? So at least 12 months...

So please pull your number and have a seat, you are not the first one to be served... at least I hope so

Jules · April 2015

Legedric wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

5) NO NEW CONTENT SINCE SEPTEMBER, 7 MONTHS AGO

Complaining about not having new content for 7 months...

Us PvP players are wating for new content since... beta? So at least 12 months...

So please pull your number and have a seat, you are not the first one to be served... at least I hope so

Yeah, I agree pvp needs its content updates too. I think it's incredibly important, it just wasn't the theme of this thread. It's not a competition, we all deserve what the promised us. So you have a seat and stop trying to one up me.

newtinmpls · April 2015

grimsfield wrote: »

This kind of thing just makes me think the devs don't actually play the game, so they don't know what makes certain sets "good" sets.

I don't think it's the developers that don't play - I think it's upper management (i.e. decision making types) and customer service reps. The only time I watched the ZOS interview/video and saw the responses to "what would you do with X ingame" I just cringed at the total lack of any clue as to how the game is experienced.

Jules · April 2015

newtinmpls wrote: »

grimsfield wrote: »

This kind of thing just makes me think the devs don't actually play the game, so they don't know what makes certain sets "good" sets.

I don't think it's the developers that don't play - I think it's upper management (i.e. decision making types) and customer service reps. The only time I watched the ZOS interview/video and saw the responses to "what would you do with X ingame" I just cringed at the total lack of any clue as to how the game is experienced.

So disheartening. How can they expect to create/manage/fix a game they don't even play and understand?

Shadesofkin · April 2015

Same song, different chorus...

xANTIxMATTERx · April 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Amazing that PvE raiders are complaining after ZoS built them exactly the game they said they wanted... sheesh!

1) Unhappy that you can't get the gear you need because there is no functioning market for it? Guess you guys shouldn't have demanded rewards that were BoP and locked behind group-gated content! I can't even count the number of posts I've seen from raid snobs defending this disgusting practice, and now we're supposed feel sad you can't buy the gear YOU want?

2) Unhappy about waiting for new content and zones? In case you've forgotten, they built Craglorn for YOU, using resources that would have been much better spent providing content to the broader population of solo players and casual groupers. Well, new content IS coming out, and hopefully it will meet the needs and desires of solo/casual players who have been waiting MUCH longer than you for a true endgame experience.

3) Unhappy about the high cost of tri-stat potions? Quit using them! Of course, that would mean discovering that mindless potion-chugging accounts for a big chunk of your DPS. I bet you thought it was your elite skills that were giving you an extra 2000 DPS all this time! LOL... please.

It sounds to me like you're a solo/casual player. Which is another way of saying you don't have much experience with anything. Let me help you out bro...

1. Endgame PVE rewards in every game I've ever played are BoP. If they were BoE then there would be plenty of "solo/casual" players wearing gear they could never otherwise earn. There would be even less incentive to run trials than there is now. I don't think any of us had a say in that decision either way, so stop blaming us.

2. In my opinion, you as a "solo player" (everyone is a solo player at first, go meet some people) are deliberately excluding yourself from current endgame content. It's not fair for you to say that you have been waiting much longer for content when its right there in front of you and you refuse to do it for fear of failing or whatever reason you have. Nobody prefers playing alone, but If you say you do then there's the door. Go get a console and play something else. This is an MMO and end game is a thing in MMOs.

3. Tri-Pots are amazing for both PVP and some classes in PVE. Hence, they are expensive since the demand is so high.Trials raiders don't make a ton of money unless they are very lucky with certain BoE's. Repairs, soul gems and potions are expensive. Suggesting that she stop using them is just another example of how much you don't know. Also, tri-pots don't boost dps alone. They slow your resources from running down on longer encounters.

Jules · April 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Amazing that PvE raiders are complaining after ZoS built them exactly the game they said they wanted... sheesh!

1) Unhappy that you can't get the gear you need because there is no functioning market for it? Guess you guys shouldn't have demanded rewards that were BoP and locked behind group-gated content! I can't even count the number of posts I've seen from raid snobs defending this disgusting practice, and now we're supposed feel sad you can't buy the gear YOU want?

2) Unhappy about waiting for new content and zones? In case you've forgotten, they built Craglorn for YOU, using resources that would have been much better spent providing content to the broader population of solo players and casual groupers. Well, new content IS coming out, and hopefully it will meet the needs and desires of solo/casual players who have been waiting MUCH longer than you for a true endgame experience.

3) Unhappy about the high cost of tri-stat potions? Quit using them! Of course, that would mean discovering that mindless potion-chugging accounts for a big chunk of your DPS. I bet you thought it was your elite skills that were giving you an extra 2000 DPS all this time! LOL... please.

Do you even eso?
Tri pots accounting for a big chunk of my DPS? Sweetheart sit down. Tripots restore stats and increase regen. There are no damage/ crit bonuses from them. Not even going to bother with the rest of your silly points. Not worth the keystrokes.