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Echo_River · April 2015

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Makkir · April 2015

WTB Paragraphs and periods

Jules · April 2015

No one said they dont work hard. Or that they're unappreciated. We all love this game and I think atleast on some level, we are all thankful to the people who create and maintain it.

But there are reasons why people are so frustrated. And these cant just be diminished.

People's complaints are valid as they have been lied to and ignored repeatedly on multiple occasions, over the course of a year. It's not realistic to pretend that everything is perfect.

Things - even the best of things- get better with constructive criticism and input from varied perspectives. Sure, people act entitled and rude sometimes. It's obviously not acceptable but it is understandable. People act this way because they are frustrated, or bored, or confused. They act this way because they've put a lot of effort into x activity only to have it changed, nerfed, bugged or abandoned by Zos.

The frustration seems everywhere, yes. However I think the majority of people give their input because they are intent on seeing this game succeed. Otherwise, why would we be here?

milkbox · April 2015

One more perspective: devs are •happy• to see the negative feedback that they've been warning the managers about all along.

It's often the case that "higher ups" don't listen to devs until community feedback validates their ideas.

Been there.

KhajitFurTrader · April 2015

@Echo_River, all these people that you're critizising act out of their love for the game, just like you do. They act with the fear that with what has transpired this past weekend, the flood gates have been opened for changes to a thing they love in a direction they don't like. Hate is not the opposite of love, indifference is.

That people should always respect others, and the CoC when posting their opinion here, really goes without saying.

StaticWax · April 2015

I'd buy the whole Zen ESO team a round if I could.

Except maybe the forum mods...

Well... what the heck. I'd even buy those curmudgeons one too as long as they cracked a smile.

pugyourself · April 2015

Echo_River wrote: »

I don't understand all the hate for ZOS. It seems that whenever they put into action a marketing technique, discuss future possibilities for the game or improve/ change a feature, they are greeted with a backlash of players spewing all kinds of crap thinking that they know better. That they know how to develop a game, how to market it, how to research what would and wouldn't work, how to technically incorporate game mechanics, how the game should be this way or that way because other MMO's feature it. Totally abusing, in my opinion, the developers who work their arses off to try and cater for every command that is rudely thrown at them.
I truly feel sorry for the ZOS team who have to come on these forums everyday and know that 99.9% of it is someone complaining about stupid little *** and how they think the game should be and how it's a 'disgrace' and 'outrage' that ZOS dare to charge money for them to play a game
Seriously, what world do you live on where you think you can get something for free? The ultimate goal for a developer is to MAKE MONEY. It's their job to make money, that's how they earn a living, how they put food on the table for their families. It is probably the best job in the world to have but at the end of a day, its just that, a job. You don't go into a shop in a town and demand that they shouldn't charge for their products that they should just freely give away their things just because you want to use them, or throw a tantrum because you don't like the way something looks. So why should ZOS do that? If you can't handle that fact of life, then don't buy the game, don't support the game and don't play the game. As simple as that.
Where's the love for the guys and girls who work tirelessly day and night, year after year to only receiving negativity in return for their hard work. Where are the thank you's for coming up with this creative idea of an Elder Scrolls mmo universe, for making it stand out from the rest of the MMO's, for rewarding loyal players with the tiger senche and eager beta testers with the imagkin pet and extra free membership days to acknowledge the server down times were vital but an annoyance for anticipating players at release day. Where's the thank you for making an exceptional platform to meet thousands of other players with similar interests to us who we are able to form guilds and groups with and to provide us all with an immersive and entertaining game in which the developers still work hard to continually improve.
It makes me angry that most people act like ZOS owe them something, like it is their right to have everything they demand given to them, exactly how they want it and for free
I understand that it would be awesome if ZOS did and could do everything that they mention, and sometimes they decide its better not to do something that most players were eager to have, but you cant please everyone and sometimes ideas are just not viable, technically, ethically or financially.
Just show a little love for ZOS for what they already have given us, what they already have worked tirelessly for, and how they are receptive to our feedback and do act on it. Appreciate what they do and they'll appreciate you more, respect works both ways.

*Preparing for backlash of abuse*

I love this game. I have been recently critical of ZOS,however, because I don't love being lied to. I also don't love being spammed with cross-screen messages as a subscriber. And I don't love having my feedback ridiculed or silenced by ZOS staff. I feel totally disrespected as a subscriber since launch and it can be difficult to show respect to ZOS while they continually disrespect their subscribers. That said, public-facing staff have a tough job. I'm sure they are upset about the broken trust as well because it makes their job near impossible.

This game is art and as someone who loves it and pays for it each month, it is horrible to watch what ZOS marketing is doing to it and its loyal subscribers.

Edited for spelling

SHADOW2KK · April 2015

Jules wrote: »

No one said they dont work hard. Or that they're unappreciated. We all love this game and I think atleast on some level, we are all thankful to the people who create and maintain it.

But there are reasons why people are so frustrated. And these cant just be diminished.

People's complaints are valid as they have been lied to and ignored repeatedly on multiple occasions, over the course of a year. It's not realistic to pretend that everything is perfect.

Things - even the best of things- get better with constructive criticism and input from varied perspectives. Sure, people act entitled and rude sometimes. It's obviously not acceptable but it is understandable. People act this way because they are frustrated, or bored, or confused. They act this way because they've put a lot of effort into x activity only to have it changed, nerfed, bugged or abandoned by Zos.

The frustration seems everywhere, yes. However I think the majority of people give their input because they are intent on seeing this game succeed. Otherwise, why would we be here?

This...and would reply more OP, but tbh, there are already a few threads concerning this, you wanna be a fanboi and have your head in the sand, then go for it.

The game is fantastic in so many ways, but some issues have been there since beta, and constant excuses and lies since.

We all want the game to be better, or at least for the game to be what they marketed about pre launch....still waiting.

I fully applaud zenis work on the game and a load of features that I personally like but there are many issues that are wrong, fundamentally within the game.

And more and more people are waking up.

riverdragon72 · April 2015

Graphic Design/Modeleing, Sound Track, Voice Over, Animation,Audio teams...outstanding jobs

Storyline/Writing....... needs some work, mostly the ending of the alliance quests...even soez, excellent.

I'll leave teh rest to..........yeah.....

RazzPitazz · April 2015

I dare you to go on any forum here, go to the earliest posts you can find and read them. You will notice very little hate and significant praise. As you skim closer to present day will notice the same topics being revisited over and over and over and over again.

SHADOW2KK · April 2015

rajaniemiorama_ESO wrote: »

I dare you to go on any forum here, go to the earliest posts you can find and read them. You will notice very little hate and significant praise. As you skim closer to present day will notice the same topics being revisited over and over and over and over again.

Aye very very true, and the reason why the same topics keep being resurrected OP , is cos the issues raised are still active.

Stikato · April 2015

Here is another perspective:

I work at a small company. Recently we were bought out by different owners, who have retained me.

They have instituted several changes. In my opinion, some are good, some not so much. We RELY on our customers giving negative feedback in order to make our establishment a better place. If they aren't satisfied, and they DON'T say anything, this is the absolute worst thing that can happen. Because, often, they won't come back--and we don't even know WHY.

Our business is off by 25% from last year. I'm sure there are several causes, but 25% is far, FAR too high to write off to incidental reasons. However, most of the feedback I receive from customers is positive. Most people simply don't like being negative to other people when asked their opinion. In light of this, negative feedback is the most valuable information we receive. It is easily ten to a hundred times more significant that a similar piece of positive feedback. (I would agree that online, people feel much freer to be negative)

In business, customers are the single most important resource. It is far easier to retain existing customers than it is to find new ones. And if, at some point, there aren't enough customers purchasing your product or service, you can't simply go out and find more! They are a finite resource. It is quite possible to *** off enough people (through a shoddy product, service, bad guarantee, etc) and create a lousy enough reputation about yourself, that even a formerly successful business or franchise can fail.

In my case, I attempted to warn the owners that their changes were very risky. But they persisted, and the vast majority of feedback was positive. But recently the owners have faced the inevitable, that business is down, as possibly irrevocably damaged. Some timely negative feedback from customers may have helped to avoid this. Internal criticism tends to fall on deaf ears until it is too late.

A business that doesn't embrace negative feedback as a critical piece of information about their operations is asking to fail. Do people go overboard sometimes? Of course! But this is simply another piece of information. If several customers are questioning your integrity, honesty, and skill, this indicates to you and your business that such a perception, however small or large, exists.

Stikato · April 2015

r.leigh.harperb14_ESO wrote: »

One more perspective: devs are •happy• to see the negative feedback that they've been warning the managers about all along.

It's often the case that "higher ups" don't listen to devs until community feedback validates their ideas.

Been there.

Missed this post before I wrote mine.

Exactly correct. I'm "there" myself right now. It is not a fun place to be.

Lord_Kreegan · April 2015

Echo_River wrote: »

<--SNIP-->
The ultimate goal for a developer is to MAKE MONEY. It's their job to make money, that's how they earn a living, how they put food on the table for their families. It is probably the best job in the world to have but at the end of a day, its just that, a job.

First, let me correct your perspective: I've been the senior executive in charge of this sort of effort. It's not the everyday workers' jobs to make money. That responsiblity ONLY sits with senior management. Everyone else is responsible for a "piece" of the product. We have the bad habit of using the term "developers", but it is really meaningless. Coders (of many specialties) write code. Level designers design levels. Writers write stories. Artists create art. Musicians create digital music. Community managers handle the beasts like us on the forums. QA verifies product quality, Testers test. Etcetera...

That's how they put food on the table. Not through product sales. If the product doesn't sell, they still get paid... until they get laid off, anyway. That's the nature of the business.

What we have in ESO is a flawed product. Considering how long the product was under development and how much money was invested in the effort, I have no problem suggesting that for several years the work environment probably "wasn't all that focused or stressful". People collected their paychecks and went their merry ways...

But then delivery dates came along and the product wasn't ready. Not even close, as evidenced by beta testing.

Oops.

The investors wanted their payback on schedule... and investors are rarely forgiving and their contracts are binding with all kinds of penalty clauses when paybacks are delayed.

So a severely buggy mess was released.

I've seen this happen before in many developments. Ultimately, THAT responsiblity ALSO sits with senior management. The senior management FAILED to do their jobs in creating the product known as ESO. They should have been fired. Where I worked before, they would have been fired long before the problem got out of hand. Irrespective of how big some people's egos are, not everyone is cut out to manage this sort of effort.

There is a right way to make money and a wrong way to make money.

Deceptive marketing practices are a wrong way to MAKE MONEY.
Selling a flawed product is a wrong way to MAKE MONEY.

THAT's why people get upset. Their anger may be misplaced and directed at the wrong people, since most of the responsibility lies with senior management, but buyers of the product are ENTITLED to get what they thought they were paying for. PURE and SIMPLE. And everyone involved in putting together a flawed product is to some extent responsible for the fact that the product isn't what it should be.

I'm surprised ZOS marketing department hasn't hired a hasbeen actor or washed up politician to make TV commercials for ESO...

Xandryah · April 2015

I think most people complaining about the ESO , in fact they really like Elder Scrolls and ESO very much, they love it... it's just they (me included) had other expectations and high hopes...and it clashed with the reality... the game is probably getting better (slowly), but still lacks a thing or two (a few things probably only) that would make many players happy for a bit, i think...

but, yeah, sometimes it's just about complaining and not about suggesting new things... probably all suggestions have been listed in a checklist already and some things will be implemented in the future...it's just so many things to be done...

if you know other mmo's you will be able to compare things and see what could to be done better.. if you don't know other mmo's then these complaints may seem excessive..

i actually believe most players like the Elder Scrolls games and would love to see ESO to be a good and stable game as well as soon as possible

It's an adventurous love-story

Echo_River · April 2015

Wow I really appreciate all the comments, some of them opened my eyes to other perspectives especially the fact that people lash out because they actually love the game.
It's really nice to hear that you guys do respect zos and the different departments and people that make this game awesome.
I just want to say that I didn't mean to imply that all negative feedback was bad, I realise that it is essential in improving things, not just in games but all life. It's just the way that some people think its okay to deliver this feedback, thinking its okay to bite the hand that feeds you. I just felt like I needed to get it off my chest that I love the work that ZOS are doing ( and judging from your comments that all of you do too).
Reading more negative and rude comments than positive and supporting comments is probably a real demoralising job to undertake, that is all I meant in my rant

SHADOW2KK · April 2015

Echo_River wrote: »

Wow I really appreciate all the comments, some of them opened my eyes to other perspectives especially the fact that people lash out because they actually love the game.
It's really nice to hear that you guys do respect zos and the different departments and people that make this game awesome.
I just want to say that I didn't mean to imply that all negative feedback was bad, I realise that it is essential in improving things, not just in games but all life. It's just the way that some people think its okay to deliver this feedback, thinking its okay to bite the hand that feeds you. I just felt like I needed to get it off my chest that I love the work that ZOS are doing ( and judging from your comments that all of you do too).
Reading more negative and rude comments than positive and supporting comments is probably a real demoralising job to undertake, that is all I meant in my rant

Good on you OP.

Heromofo · April 2015

1. People love the elder scrolls and dont want it to fail
2. People here would not make the effort to go on the forums if they did not care
3. Forum posts do make a difference and help them figure out if something is wrong or if something needs to be changed
4. Even the most out spoken people on here are tame you may want to check out some other forums lol

pugyourself · April 2015

Echo_River wrote: »

Wow I really appreciate all the comments, some of them opened my eyes to other perspectives especially the fact that people lash out because they actually love the game.
It's really nice to hear that you guys do respect zos and the different departments and people that make this game awesome.
I just want to say that I didn't mean to imply that all negative feedback was bad, I realise that it is essential in improving things, not just in games but all life. It's just the way that some people think its okay to deliver this feedback, thinking its okay to bite the hand that feeds you. I just felt like I needed to get it off my chest that I love the work that ZOS are doing ( and judging from your comments that all of you do too).
Reading more negative and rude comments than positive and supporting comments is probably a real demoralising job to undertake, that is all I meant in my rant

In terms of the way you are seeing people deliver feedback, I think you are probably seeing frustration over being lied to and disrespected for a year. The spam this weekend was a tipping point for the community to finally say enough is enough I think.

Also, a lot of the feedback that you are seeing may be the third or fourth time someone has raised the issue. And they may have been on the receiving end of public ridicule or silencing by ZOS employees. So they are reasonably frustrated.

Yes, we love this game. And many of us still pay to play it every month and want it to succeed. But the stunt this weekend went too far. And when called out on it, the official response from ZOS was more lies.

Like I said, I love this game. But I hate what their marketing arm is doing to the game I love.

To their credit, I do need to say that they've been silencing fewer threads over the last two days, which feels like someone is starting to "get it". Of course I could be wrong about that.

Edited for spelling

lihentian · April 2015

Trust me there are many of us who think ZM is doing great

.. though it is hard to make everyone see the same picture..we all see things from different angle, they are all true and false at the same time..

Stikato · April 2015

Nice to have a good thread on here with some interesting discussion.

I agree with most that people are just frustrated. Personally, since even before launch, I have been looking forward to Imperial City. It is literally at the center of Tamriel and Cyrodill, and to me (hopefully) will represent a core aspect of the game.

Now, if I was just waiting for IC, and ZOS had said nothing about it, then that would be one thing. But instead I was shown videos and have been hyped by ZOS about IC, for many months. Then they flatly state that there will be no significant updates prior to console release.

Look, to me this is the best MMO PVP on the market right now. (For the most part) the fluidity of animations, the active combat, the art style, the character building, and the overall feel of pvp is incredible. Of course there are issues, but the overall product is very good. If it wasn't, none of us would be here.

It is the communication about the future of the product that has been quite frankly terrible. You almost couldn't plan worse communication. I hate to say that, but it is what it is.

Furthermore, as other posters have said, there is a clear disconnect between elements of the company internally. This was obvious to me as early as the final beta test. Whoever had the idea to use the enormous stress test as more or less a free trial weekend right before launch, almost killed the game. After enduring quest bug after quest bug, I had to be convinced by my friends for days to give the live game a chance.

I'm glad they did, but it is impossible to ignore the fact that a game that had 5 million registered accounts during beta retained only a shadow of the player-base it had a firm grasp on only months before.

The people that are still here have seen promises broken, business models changed, unbelievable delays in content, persistent day-one bugs, new unfixed bugs, advertising shoved down their throat, previously time-limited exclusive offers made available again, new content focusing almost entirely on cash shop items, post 1.6 patches that are lackluster at best, and terrible communication about all of the above.

This game has unlimited (to use a pun) potential. It really does. But to achieve that potential, it has to grow. The more customers, the more content we will get. Right now, we have a base level of players that enjoy the game, despite the frustrations. I am one of those. But to gain and RETAIN more customers, ZOS needs to seriously improve how they communicate and manage their product, just as much as improving the product itself.

BigM · April 2015

OP /facepalm

Betahkiin · April 2015

What happens in the forum is a blend of: official competition strategies, unofficial competition strategies from addicted users to the competition, immature users, disrespectful users, malicious users, uninterested users, dissatisfied users, concerned users, outraged users, generous users, educated users, indifferent users, proactive users, reactive users, selfish users, envious users, etc.

When something is not worth anyone is interested in paying attention. On the contrary, when something stand often catches the eyes and draw attention to the different types of participants cited above.

That's a good sign, it means TESO is important, a blessing to many and a threat to others. If the game was as bad as many people tend to show already had gone a while and no one would speak of TESO, however, is common to see the same users remain active and insistent with his theories of absolute chaos, which has no logic .

When one is so flawed and has no hope for change just goes away, it does not remain to live to encourage constant complaint and grievance unless the intentions are clearly cause even more damage to that supposedly exists.

It does not take a genius in the art to know when something is wrong, nor for claims directed at something specific, so regardless of the level of professionalism of the people of ZOS, put everyday repetitively the same destructive comments that are already known and of which everyone is aware has no other intention than to generate more damage.

Psychological manipulation in a social environment is very used for commercial interest, political interest or the simple art of generating damage and feel powerful in doing so.

Many people is influenced and end up as gears for this corrupt machinery. The only tools against this type of practice is a great level of maturity, lack of ingenuity and formed a personal and independent review to assess and interpret the others.

Makkir · April 2015

Echo_River wrote: »

Wow I really appreciate all the comments, some of them opened my eyes to other perspectives especially the fact that people lash out because they actually love the game.
It's really nice to hear that you guys do respect zos and the different departments and people that make this game awesome.
I just want to say that I didn't mean to imply that all negative feedback was bad, I realise that it is essential in improving things, not just in games but all life. It's just the way that some people think its okay to deliver this feedback, thinking its okay to bite the hand that feeds you. I just felt like I needed to get it off my chest that I love the work that ZOS are doing ( and judging from your comments that all of you do too).
Reading more negative and rude comments than positive and supporting comments is probably a real demoralising job to undertake, that is all I meant in my rant

I was supporting you to use more punctuation and format etiquette to make it easier on readers, and less wall of text.

Echo_River · April 2015

Makkir wrote: »

Echo_River wrote: »

Wow I really appreciate all the comments, some of them opened my eyes to other perspectives especially the fact that people lash out because they actually love the game.
It's really nice to hear that you guys do respect zos and the different departments and people that make this game awesome.
I just want to say that I didn't mean to imply that all negative feedback was bad, I realise that it is essential in improving things, not just in games but all life. It's just the way that some people think its okay to deliver this feedback, thinking its okay to bite the hand that feeds you. I just felt like I needed to get it off my chest that I love the work that ZOS are doing ( and judging from your comments that all of you do too).
Reading more negative and rude comments than positive and supporting comments is probably a real demoralising job to undertake, that is all I meant in my rant

I was supporting you to use more punctuation and format etiquette to make it easier on readers, and less wall of text.

Sorry grammar police.