No incentive to do end game PVE!

Jules · April 2015

Dearest ZOS,
I don't want to just be a negative nancy, so first, some nice things. I'm happy with a lot of the changes you've made in recent months. Thank you for champion system. Thank you for undaunted sets. Thank you for my tiger mount. It's super cool.

That aside, I feel compelled to let you know that there is currently ZERO INCENTIVE to do end game PVE. ZERO. I'm not sure if this is how you intended it, or whether you just aren't aware, but the end game community is dying and there are multiple reasons as to why.

1) USELESS GEAR. ENTIRELY USELESS. it should be the best in the game. If not the best, it should be on par. It's not even a blip in the radar of cyrodiil's light, martial knowledge, morag tong, shadow walker ect ect ect. Maybe I'm naive, but as a PVE'er, I would think that the fact that I spend 85% of my gameplay in trials, I might wear some trials gear. However, I don't. And neither does the majority of the server. One trial gear set is used and rarely, vicious ophidian. Only one member of my end-game raiding team wears end-game trial gear. ONE. Please please please give us some spell/weapon dmg sets. This crit stuff has got to go. Please give us interesting, great sets like ravager and valkyns. Give us sets that can proc and things that we can test and assess.

2) EXPENSIVE ON POTS & REPAIR. Gear is deteriorating rapidly. Who knows if it's intended, who cares right? It's not that much gold but it's just another cost for repair kits. Tri pots 12-15k a stack and I go through about a stack or more a night. And potion bug makes it so they don't even always go off. Awesomesauce.

3) NO WAY TO MAKE GOLD Majority of the sets are not BIS. Dreugh king sells, sure. Skirmisher? Maybe. Doesn't even come close to outweighing the costs of actually running trials. Give us back warlock rings or desirable sets for others that we can sell to offset costs. The PVP'ers have sets we want. Give us sets they want. Help the economy flourish and keep the gold flow circular.

4) LEADERBOARDS Wiped multiple times due to exploited scores, okay. Let's do it again, whatever. But honestly, there's no point of being on leaderboards except bragging rights. After 7,8,9 months, that gets stale. Put guild names on LB's next to the score and give us some guild recognition and unity. Give better incentives for higher scores. Take away our incredibly high point scores from 1.5 that disqualifies us from getting new personal bests. My current scores are all 500,000+ from before leaderboard wipes meaning I never give notifications.

5) NO NEW CONTENT SINCE SEPTEMBER, 7 MONTHS AGO Probably the most important. We absolutely need more content. We have been challenged and overcome everything you've thrown at us. The lack of content might have been offset by the worthwhileness for gear or items to sell, however both aspects are completely lacking.

All of these things need to be said. Yes they've been said elsewhere and by others but Zos NEEDS to know that this is not one person with one dispute. These are the concerns and desperation of an entire community. Just look at the hundreds of people who have gone inactive in PVE. Look at the rise and subsequent deterioration of several high level raiding guilds due to inactivity and ultimately boredom.

I love this game, but this part of it is dying and you need to know that. If you don't care, then fine. Just let us know because we're hanging on by a thread here.

Moderator Note: Edited thread title to promote a more constructive discussion.

Jules · April 2015

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Thymos · April 2015

So you bump it by tagging them?

Seriously, you think anything you wrote is new?

Every point you make has or is already being talked about here on the forums.

Sinthrax · April 2015

Thymos wrote: »

So you bump it by tagging them?

Seriously, you think anything you wrote is new?

Every point you make has or is already being talked about here on the forums.

So you bump it by responding to his bump that I guess you didnt like...funny. Now I do the same thing...

Also, I see 5 thread on each subject daily..do you go in their threads being a rear like this? I hope not...

OP, I agree with all you said. I keep watch on the forum hoping to one day come on here and see some great information on a miracle content update to the game for groups. I hasn't happen yet. I haven't logged in for over 5 seconds in a month. That is just so my guilds don't kick me just yet. My motivation has been sapped......

grimsfield · April 2015

Jules wrote: »

Please please please give us some spell/weapon dmg sets. This crit stuff has got to go. Please give us interesting, great sets like ravager and valkyns. Give us sets that can proc and things that we can test and assess.

This kind of thing just makes me think the devs don't actually play the game, so they don't know what makes certain sets "good" sets.

Nice post Jules, you hit on alot of the blaring issues. Forgot the awesome loading screens though, but ZoS has said that most people don't experience them, so it's all good.

Jules · April 2015

Thymos wrote: »

So you bump it by tagging them?

Seriously, you think anything you wrote is new?

Every point you make has or is already being talked about here on the forums.

Doesn't matter if it's been talked about before. The conversation needs to be had again and again until something sinks in and changes. When you search for broken skills, do you see one post or do you see a plethora? An entire half of the game is becoming extinct. That is worthy of more than one conversation. You don't like it? I don't care.

pppontus · April 2015

Needs to be said until someone listens.

A whole part of the game that's supposed to keep PVE players interested is dying off. People are leaving, many endgame guilds are dying out. It's really really bad.

We're still filling raids thanks to heavy recruitment and effort, but .. we could fill raids every single day with no real effort before. Because there were incentives to do them.

Jules · April 2015

Sinthrax wrote: »

Thymos wrote: »

So you bump it by tagging them?

Seriously, you think anything you wrote is new?

Every point you make has or is already being talked about here on the forums.

So you bump it by responding to his bump that I guess you didnt like...funny. Now I do the same thing...

Also, I see 5 thread on each subject daily..do you go in their threads being a rear like this? I hope not...

OP, I agree with all you said. I keep watch on the forum hoping to one day come on here and see some great information on a miracle content update to the game for groups. I hasn't happen yet. I haven't logged in for over 5 seconds in a month. That is just so my guilds don't kick me just yet. My motivation has been sapped......

Lol thank you. And I understand and share your frustration.

Also, why does everyone always assume I'm a dude?

Jules · April 2015

Lol. Zos changed my title

pugyourself · April 2015

Jules wrote: »

Dearest ZOS,
I don't want to just be a negative nancy, so first, some nice things. I'm happy with a lot of the changes you've made in recent months. Thank you for champion system. Thank you for undaunted sets. Thank you for my tiger mount. It's super cool.

That aside, I feel compelled to let you know that there is currently ZERO INCENTIVE to do end game PVE. ZERO. I'm not sure if this is how you intended it, or whether you just aren't aware, but the end game community is dying and there are multiple reasons as to why.

1) USELESS GEAR. ENTIRELY USELESS. it should be the best in the game. If not the best, it should be on par. It's not even a blip in the radar of cyrodiil's light, martial knowledge, morag tong, shadow walker ect ect ect. Maybe I'm naive, but as a PVE'er, I would think that the fact that I spend 85% of my gameplay in trials, I might wear some trials gear. However, I don't. And neither does the majority of the server. One trial gear set is used and rarely, vicious ophidian. Only one member of my end-game raiding team wears end-game trial gear. ONE. Please please please give us some spell/weapon dmg sets. This crit stuff has got to go. Please give us interesting, great sets like ravager and valkyns. Give us sets that can proc and things that we can test and assess.

2) EXPENSIVE ON POTS & REPAIR. Gear is deteriorating rapidly. Who knows if it's intended, who cares right? It's not that much gold but it's just another cost for repair kits. Tri pots 12-15k a stack and I go through about a stack or more a night. And potion bug makes it so they don't even always go off. Awesomesauce.

3) NO WAY TO MAKE GOLD Majority of the sets are not BIS. Dreugh king sells, sure. Skirmisher? Maybe. Doesn't even come close to outweighing the costs of actually running trials. Give us back warlock rings or desirable sets for others that we can sell to offset costs. The PVP'ers have sets we want. Give us sets they want. Help the economy flourish and keep the gold flow circular.

4) LEADERBOARDS Wiped multiple times due to exploited scores, okay. Let's do it again, whatever. But honestly, there's no point of being on leaderboards except bragging rights. After 7,8,9 months, that gets stale. Put guild names on LB's next to the score and give us some guild recognition and unity. Give better incentives for higher scores. Take away our incredibly high point scores from 1.5 that disqualifies us from getting new personal bests. My current scores are all 500,000+ from before leaderboard wipes meaning I never give notifications.

5) NO NEW CONTENT SINCE SEPTEMBER, 7 MONTHS AGO Probably the most important. We absolutely need more content. We have been challenged and overcome everything you've thrown at us. The lack of content might have been offset by the worthwhileness for gear or items to sell, however both aspects are completely lacking.

All of these things need to be said. Yes they've been said elsewhere and by others but Zos NEEDS to know that this is not one person with one dispute. These are the concerns and desperation of an entire community. Just look at the hundreds of people who have gone inactive in PVE. Look at the rise and subsequent deterioration of several high level raiding guilds due to inactivity and ultimately boredom.

I love this game, but this part of it is dying and you need to know that. If you don't care, then fine. Just let us know because we're hanging on by a thread here.

Moderator Note: Edited thread title to promote a more constructive discussion.

Agree with 1,2,4 and 5. However, dropped gear really shouldn't be a gold source. I'd rather see top prices for crafted gear and make money off decons/selling mats from dropped gear.

Obscure · April 2015

Remember playing the original Diablo on Battle.Net? I could play that game with a crew over and over and over and over, and never got bored. "End Game" as a design concept didn't even exist, yet there I was doing it anyways. It's not the shiny little thing at the end of the task that makes the task fun or good, it's actually irrelevant entirely. You don't play the Legend of Zelda to obtain the Boomerang, or the bigger Bomb bag, you play it because it's fun.

MMO's are the most guilty genre of games for both distracting players from the fun that can be had by making stats and numbers the focal point and not the narrative of the game. They are consistently going out of their way to focus on the shiny thing at the end than the process of getting it, depriving the player of getting any value from the game other than levels & loot.

...shame. For a game with such potential, ESO seems incapable of designing for fun, resulting in threads like this asking for better shinies. It's not bad game design, it's lazy game design. So many good directions to go in... better rewards is the lowest shelf option.

Sinthrax · April 2015

Jules wrote: »

Sinthrax wrote: »

Thymos wrote: »

So you bump it by tagging them?

Seriously, you think anything you wrote is new?

Every point you make has or is already being talked about here on the forums.

So you bump it by responding to his bump that I guess you didnt like...funny. Now I do the same thing...

Also, I see 5 thread on each subject daily..do you go in their threads being a rear like this? I hope not...

OP, I agree with all you said. I keep watch on the forum hoping to one day come on here and see some great information on a miracle content update to the game for groups. I hasn't happen yet. I haven't logged in for over 5 seconds in a month. That is just so my guilds don't kick me just yet. My motivation has been sapped......

Lol thank you. And I understand and share your frustration.

Also, why does everyone always assume I'm a dude?

Sorry, I guess his is an assumption. I didn't mean to offend you. When I see your forum name I think of Jules Verne..so I assumed. I am sorry.

Jules · April 2015

Sinthrax wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Sinthrax wrote: »

Thymos wrote: »

So you bump it by tagging them?

Seriously, you think anything you wrote is new?

Every point you make has or is already being talked about here on the forums.

So you bump it by responding to his bump that I guess you didnt like...funny. Now I do the same thing...

Also, I see 5 thread on each subject daily..do you go in their threads being a rear like this? I hope not...

OP, I agree with all you said. I keep watch on the forum hoping to one day come on here and see some great information on a miracle content update to the game for groups. I hasn't happen yet. I haven't logged in for over 5 seconds in a month. That is just so my guilds don't kick me just yet. My motivation has been sapped......

Lol thank you. And I understand and share your frustration.

Also, why does everyone always assume I'm a dude?

Sorry, I guess his is an assumption. I didn't mean to offend you. When I see your forum name I think of Jules Verne..so I assumed. I am sorry.

I'm not offended @ all, just teasing. Happens a lot.

Sinthrax · April 2015

Jules wrote: »

Lol. Zos changed my title

I am a very passionate person. They change my entire post sometimes. Sometimes they just cant handle the truth.

Jules · April 2015

grimsfield wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Please please please give us some spell/weapon dmg sets. This crit stuff has got to go. Please give us interesting, great sets like ravager and valkyns. Give us sets that can proc and things that we can test and assess.

This kind of thing just makes me think the devs don't actually play the game, so they don't know what makes certain sets "good" sets.

Nice post Jules, you hit on alot of the blaring issues. Forgot the awesome loading screens though, but ZoS has said that most people don't experience them, so it's all good.

Most people don't experience them.... Lol.
We must be the lucky few grim

HeWhoCaresNot · April 2015

I dont care.

Ser Lobo · April 2015

Personal opinion, but the thinking that 'the only reason to play is better gear' is a little narrow minded. Of course if you do make looted/awarded gear better than crafted, you will completely invalidate all crafting in the game. Which is exactly how most MMO's today do it.

Loot grind mechanics also focus the development cycles on releasing harder content ... that awards better gear ... which in turn makes all previous gear sets useless and forces player to work all over again to maintain competitive edge. A vicious cycle that is called 'Power Creep'.

Should there be rewards for playing PvE content? You betcha! Should they be amazing and inspire players to achieve new heights? Agreed as well! But lets push for something other than the usual fall back of gear.

Like new emotes, power effects, armor skins, pets, mounts, titles, gold rewards, crown rewards, etc. So many more options!

lathbury · April 2015

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Personal opinion, but the thinking that 'the only reason to play is better gear' is a little narrow minded. Of course if you do make looted/awarded gear better than crafted, you will completely invalidate all crafting in the game. Which is exactly how most MMO's today do it.

Loot grind mechanics also focus the development cycles on releasing harder content ... that awards better gear ... which in turn makes all previous gear sets useless and forces player to work all over again to maintain competitive edge. A vicious cycle that is called 'Power Creep'.

Should there be rewards for playing PvE content? You betcha! Should they be amazing and inspire players to achieve new heights? Agreed as well! But lets push for something other than the usual fall back of gear.

Like new emotes, power effects, armor skins, pets, mounts, titles, gold rewards, crown rewards, etc. So many more options!

emotes meh not worth the effort. armour skins are crown store material. gold will introduce inflation to the economy as raiders will farm the raids and then buy up the top gear driving up the price of potion mats good armour sets etc. crown rewards not a bad idea wont happen as it will effect zos income. titles they are there already and only incentivize you to do the things once.
No one is saying make it better than al the other sets just on a par with sets like ravage and martial knowledge or if bop with better traits.

Makkir · April 2015

Hey Jules you realize once you make PVE end game raiding gear the best in game that you also shaft the crafters right? ZOS said and has said a zillion times before they want crafters to play an essential role and they want crafted gear to be the center stone.

Ser Lobo · April 2015

Makkir wrote: »

Hey Jules you realize once you make PVE end game raiding gear the best in game that you also shaft the crafters right? ZOS said and has said a zillion times before they want crafters to play an essential role and they want crafted gear to be the center stone.

Even if you don't make it better, and just make it on par? You still shaft the crafters.

ZOS isn't even selling food or potions better than what crafters make.

Ramtaku · April 2015

Yea, I'm waiting for new content too and have no desire to grind trials.

I re-installed skyrim and got it to run with 255 mods.

I can impregnate NPCs and they give birth to grand soulgems - now that's an end game! ;-)

Jules · April 2015

Makkir wrote: »

Hey Jules you realize once you make PVE end game raiding gear the best in game that you also shaft the crafters right? ZOS said and has said a zillion times before they want crafters to play an essential role and they want crafted gear to be the center stone.

I feel you dude. And I wear torugs pact on my PVE gear and seducers on my PVP gear. So I think crafted gear has its role in the grand scheme of things, and don't want to shaft crafters as I am one myself. But it just shouldn't be this way where trials gear has no place on trials raiders.

Jules · April 2015

Ramtaku wrote: »

I can impregnate NPCs and they give birth to grand soulgems - now that's an end game! ;-)

LOL WUT

Jules · April 2015

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Personal opinion, but the thinking that 'the only reason to play is better gear' is a little narrow minded. Of course if you do make looted/awarded gear better than crafted, you will completely invalidate all crafting in the game. Which is exactly how most MMO's today do it.

Loot grind mechanics also focus the development cycles on releasing harder content ... that awards better gear ... which in turn makes all previous gear sets useless and forces player to work all over again to maintain competitive edge. A vicious cycle that is called 'Power Creep'.

Should there be rewards for playing PvE content? You betcha! Should they be amazing and inspire players to achieve new heights? Agreed as well! But lets push for something other than the usual fall back of gear.

Like new emotes, power effects, armor skins, pets, mounts, titles, gold rewards, crown rewards, etc. So many more options!

Yeah I like some of your ideas. I like armor skins mounts titles - all that, some of that or more. Doesn't have to be gear you're right. Just need some system that feels purposeful and worthwhile.

Makkir · April 2015

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Hey Jules you realize once you make PVE end game raiding gear the best in game that you also shaft the crafters right? ZOS said and has said a zillion times before they want crafters to play an essential role and they want crafted gear to be the center stone.

Even if you don't make it better, and just make it on par? You still shaft the crafters.

ZOS isn't even selling food or potions better than what crafters make.

Doesn't have to be on par. As I have suggested in other threads they can add, say, frost resist gear. They can add new PvE content with the same boss levels as current, just different fight mechanics. The gear you obtain from one raid, with the Frost Resist, you can use to progress in the new content which would be themed appropriately for the gear in the previous tier.

The other idea is maybe have bosses drop rare mats and/or motifs for crafters to use in crafted gear. This keeps crafters at the center but allows a system for harder raids and better rewards to be introduced.

If the gear scaled downward in Cyrodiil I wouldn't even care if it was better

Ser Lobo · April 2015

Makkir wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Hey Jules you realize once you make PVE end game raiding gear the best in game that you also shaft the crafters right? ZOS said and has said a zillion times before they want crafters to play an essential role and they want crafted gear to be the center stone.

Even if you don't make it better, and just make it on par? You still shaft the crafters.

ZOS isn't even selling food or potions better than what crafters make.

Doesn't have to be on par. As I have suggested in other threads they can add, say, frost resist gear. The can add new PvE content with the same boss levels as current, just different fight mechanics. The gear you obtain from one raid, with the Frost Resist, you can use to progress in the new content which would be themed appropriately for the gear in the previous tier.

The other idea is maybe have bosses drop rare mats and/or motifs for crafters to use in crafted gear. This keeps crafters at the center but allows a system for harder raids and better rewards to be introduced.

If the gear scaled downward in Cyrodiil I wouldn't even care if it was better

I like the idea of adding to current gear, personally. Like gear re-skins. Or more to your point, gear attachments which can do things like add extra resists, or even extra features to a set. Items which have to be earned through trials or epic dungeons, and can be attached to looted OR crafted armor (though obviously crafted armor would be a better base) to add bonuses which are entirely focused on PvE.

So maybe you don't get that armor chest piece like other games. But you could fight that dungeon boss for a chance to loot a 'skyrim deadric' reskin for a chest piece. OR if weapons and armor have places to attach 'gems', maybe one or two considering the quality of the piece, gems which have small advantages (maybe stat boosts, elemental resists, etc) when attached?

That sounds perfectly fine to me. As long as they don't also add it to the crown store, that is.

Daveheart · April 2015

Um, there's already gear from PvP that's better or competitive with the crafted options. Before 1.6, the Aether set was a big player for magicka builds, and the drops from vDSA are standard fair for many healers and tanks. There are still plenty of people who also mix in crafted gear. If you want to protect gear crafters, you'd be better off arguing for them not to make the impending nirnhoned armor nerf too severe. Making the trial gear a viable option for the raiders who actually earn it didn't ruin crafting before 1.6, and it won't ruin it now.

*BTW, I'm a fully leveled crafter with everything but a few of the nirnhoned traits researched. I do care about the state of crafting.

StaticWax · April 2015

That's the nice thing about having fun. It is it's own reward.

Huggernaut · April 2015

The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Need more people offering constructive criticism about PvE issues

I agree, we definitely need more PvE content on a more consistent basis.

I know the staff

's the PvP, but that is no reason PvE can't have nice things, is it?

Cheers.

KyyuU · April 2015

Sanctum Ophipidia is/was awesome but 3 Trials are not enough i also wouldnz say no for a 24 player trial ;P

Faulgor · April 2015

The reward structure of the whole game is bananas, imo.

EXP? Just look at all the topics in the forums. Grinding, questing, dungeons, trials, pvp - there's something to complain about everything.
Gold? Too little from many sources, not enough valuable gold sinks.
AP? I'm no PvP pro but the current reward structure seems to reward zerging quite hard.
Gear? All over the place. Low level crafted gear is more valuable than high level, the maximum level of dropped gear is inconsistent across the board, the focus on weapon/spell damage and crit before that makes some sets the clearly best choice without a lot of variation, etc pp.

I like the dye system, though.