Crazy Dwemer Theory

Shunravi · April 2015

Dekkameron wrote: »

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

Maybe the Dwemer got a hold of the phasing technology from early ESO. And maybe they've been here the whole time but are just in another phase because they all made a different quest choices.

Not to mention that any ESO character that defeats Molag Bal suddenly gains the ability to both shift in time and space at will

Well, I strongly believe that ESO occurs in a dragon break. And as a consequence of being soul shriven, our being is "unmoored from the Mundus" which is the reason we can use wayshrines. I would immagine a similar condition could be applied to how time affects us. Especially during a dragon break.

Fleshreaper · April 2015

Could be that the Dwemer tried to trap a deadra prince. As Mola Bal said, deadra princes are legends and there are far worse masters then he. The Dwemer could have been turned in to the very energy needed to power their machines.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO · April 2015

if i recall correctly, i believe i read some where that the dwemer did phase from the world. from reading the lore so far, the dwemer machines are tied to soul gems. perhaps there is a bit of both going on- some dwemer still exist as the robots, and some exist in the alternate plane of existence. the ones that were bots may have been a "lower class" that was subjected to slave-life, or it could have been an artificial means of immortality, or the pursuit of a "bigger, better, badder" dwemer in some fashion per their intended purpose.

fun thread though

Robbmrp · April 2015

Nutronic wrote: »

So, what if the dwemer aren't gone. Instead, what if they trapped themselves inside of the constructs they created? Just an idea, since it doesn't seem like the (seemingly from what's been said by lore) dwarves were all that nice to begin with. Not to mention the machines have function for centuries by repairing themselves, and some even become friendly (maybe children or the few who opposed their culture).

Either way, just a thought I wanted to share and see if anyone else had considered this.

Whoa....that could explain the filled soul gems we would get from those in Skyrim. Can't remember if ESO drops SG's from Dwemer.....

Nutronic · April 2015

"After creating the dwemer they crafted space ships and traveled to cybertron where they created the transformers under the name the Quintessons. The transformers eventually fled to earth back in 1975 when Van Halen made their first album. They remained there in secret underground bunkers where they defended the earth against cobra commander. They were mostly successful until Skynet was activated in 1997 and corrupted the transformers into terminators. Thats when He-man traveled back in time to stop Skynet from being brought on line. After He-man stopped Skynet he attempted to travel back to his own time. However something went wrong and he traveled several centuries in the past and was thrown across the cosmos. He finally arrived on Nirn. He-Man met She-Ra there on Nirn and had many children in the mountains. Worried about the cold he began to build giant underground cities. It was too much for He-Man to do alone so he built robots to perform most of the labor. He called those robots the Dwemer.

Now you all know, and knowing is half the battle."

All of this, except the incest.

Seriously though, I think there is just enough wiggle room to make any theory stick.

UrQuan · April 2015

Nutronic wrote: »

I think they still could have gone to another plane, but it kinda seems poetic if they got trapped in the machines they built right? I mean, the plan was to trap the soul of a dead god into a massive construct to fight the chinmer, or to give themselves godly powers. Any number of things could have happened, just adding more "what if" to the fire I guess.

I do like this idea. They were trying to trap the soul of a god into a grand construct, and the backlash caused some portion of their own souls to get trapped in their own lesser constructs. It does seem fitting.

Gidorick · April 2015

Rydik wrote: »

Dwemers become the brass skin of Numidium.

What was the Numidium's skin before?

Gidorick · April 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

Nutronic wrote: »

I think they still could have gone to another plane, but it kinda seems poetic if they got trapped in the machines they built right? I mean, the plan was to trap the soul of a dead god into a massive construct to fight the chinmer, or to give themselves godly powers. Any number of things could have happened, just adding more "what if" to the fire I guess.

I do like this idea. They were trying to trap the soul of a god into a grand construct, and the backlash caused some portion of their own souls to get trapped in their own lesser constructs. It does seem fitting.

Yea, it really does...

minfaer · April 2015

Well, when talking about the Dwemer, people always tend to mix up facts and conjecture...

We KNOW they disappeared when Kagrenac performed his ritual on the heart of Lorkhan. That is pretty much it.

The Brass-skin-of-Numidium-Theorie is good in its metaphorical meaning, but very few people take it literally, for this does not really fit and there are several pieces of evidence that speak against it, the latest one being Arniel Gane's possible reproduction of the ritual.
I am pretty sure, if the Dwemer were the skin, Tiber Septim could not have controlled the Numidium mundanely by replacing the heart of Lorkhan with the Mantella, suggesting that the heart was the only living entity in it.

It is strongly suggested that they left Nirn, either ascending, phasing out, or destroying themselfs.

Gidorick · April 2015

minfaer wrote: »

Well, when talking about the Dwemer, people always tend to mix up facts and conjecture...

We KNOW they disappeared when Kagrenac performed his ritual on the heart of Lorkhan. That is pretty much it.

The Brass-skin-of-Numidium-Theorie is good in its metaphorical meaning, but very few people take it literally, for this does not really fit and there are several pieces of evidence that speak against it, the latest one being Arniel Gane's possible reproduction of the ritual.
I am pretty sure, if the Dwemer were the skin, Tiber Septim could not have controlled the Numidium mundanely by replacing the heart of Lorkhan with the Mantella, suggesting that the heart was the only living entity in it.

It is strongly suggested that they left Nirn, either ascending, phasing out, or destroying themselfs.

What if... stay with me here... What if the Dwemer phased out of space AND time and they became the ORIGINAL Et'Ada? This would make Aedra and Daedra and all of Mundus the product of the Dwemer civilization.

This is fun!

Ysne58 · April 2015

@LadyNerevar, one of the Librarians over at the Imperial Library site probably knows more than anybody what the lore says about this.

Brassmonkey · April 2015

This thread kind of reminds me of the dwarf in morrowind.
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Yagrum_Bagarn

It'd be awesome if they had him in eso.

starkerealm · April 2015

Fleshreaper wrote: »

Could be that the Dwemer tried to trap a deadra prince. As Mola Bal said, deadra princes are legends and there are far worse masters then he. The Dwemer could have been turned in to the very energy needed to power their machines.

Lorkhan is actually a divine. So Aedric, not Daedric. The distinction maters when you get into some of the weirder parts of the metaphysics.

Gidorick · April 2015

Brassmonkey wrote: »

This thread kind of reminds me of the dwarf in morrowind.
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Yagrum_Bagarn

It'd be awesome if they had him in eso.

That guy is around during the time of ESO... we might actually get to see him!

KeplerMG · April 2015

Nutronic wrote: »

So, what if the dwemer aren't gone. Instead, what if they trapped themselves inside of the constructs they created? Just an idea, since it doesn't seem like the (seemingly from what's been said by lore) dwarves were all that nice to begin with. Not to mention the machines have function for centuries by repairing themselves, and some even become friendly (maybe children or the few who opposed their culture).

Either way, just a thought I wanted to share and see if anyone else had considered this.

That is what I've always thought. Constructs need a soul gem to operate, and so do soul gems. The Dwemer trapped themselves into the soul gems that control their contructs. They basically mechanized themselves in a desperate attempt to survive the battle at red mountain. Plenty of books talk about how the Dwemer would be at the mercy of no god or daedric prince, and tried to find ways to transcend and defeat the cycles of life and death. Well obviously they did it.

Nutronic · April 2015

So here is the full theory on how the dwemer trapped adhered themselves to the Brass skin of the Numidium (while it hints that this might be a literal thing, it strong suggest that the "skin" is any part of the construct surrounding the heart).

After having given it a read, there are a few things I take from it which leads me to believe it is a VERY close open and shut case but still not 100% satisfactory:

(1. The ambiguous nature in which the tools were used means they could have literally been used for any purpose. Though it is hinted at in the several books and passages he quotes that Kagrenac and many other dwarves hated the thought of being lower than the gods and wanted to transcend their mortal form, it can't be ignored that they were facing a huge loss at the hands of the chimer. He writes the war off as a mere coincidence, but the reality is that they had ample opportunity during and before the war to do what they did but it was in the last moment that he choose to strike the heart. This leads me to consider 3 additional things

a. Kagrenac was unsure himself what striking the heart would do and therefore hit it in desperation
b. Kagrenac wanted to turn the tide of the war and knew he could give his people immense power with the tools.
c Kagrenac did ascend the dwemer before they were ready because he knew if red mountain was lost, they would loose their chance to use the heart at all.

(2. The quest "Arniel's Endeavor" shows us what happens when the process is repeated on a much smaller scale. Yet the outcome is actually quite similar to what was seen in Morrowind (seeing the shades and ghosts of angry dwemer, who will attack on sight, can't be reasoned with, and can have their souls trapped) by way having one's soul removed from their body and bound by Thier will. That is to say that (conjecture here) the reason we see ghost in morrowind but not in skyrim is because on vvardenfell most dunmer and other persons actively avoid dewmer ruins and therefore have less opportunity to meet/fight these spirits and kill them. Where as in Skyrim and ESO most of the ruins we get into have already been opened and most of those spirits would have been "killed" by the people who discovered it.

(3. Lorkhan is not dead. (bare with me, this one is a huge stretch) Lorkhan and many other et'ada more.... corporeal essences make up the mortal plane of Mundus, but his heart would be the very core of who/what he/it/she is. I believe this stands to reason that he might have been aware of the dwarves actions (which from his point of view, despite his exile, would undo the very thing he and so many others died for) and he could have intervene and stopped them. This would mean that while Kagrenac might have tried to use the tools to step ladder his kind back into Atherius, I doubt Lorkhan would have been a willing participant in that endeavor. While this might seem to fly in the face of Talos or Septium using it in combat, it isn't hard to see from the grand scheme of things that they were being used to unite Tamriel under one flag (something the divines rewarded talos for).

minfaer wrote: »

Well, when talking about the Dwemer, people always tend to mix up facts and conjecture...

We KNOW they disappeared when Kagrenac performed his ritual on the heart of Lorkhan. That is pretty much it.

The Brass-skin-of-Numidium-Theorie is good in its metaphorical meaning, but very few people take it literally, for this does not really fit and there are several pieces of evidence that speak against it, the latest one being Arniel Gane's possible reproduction of the ritual.
I am pretty sure, if the Dwemer were the skin, Tiber Septim could not have controlled the Numidium mundanely by replacing the heart of Lorkhan with the Mantella, suggesting that the heart was the only living entity in it.

It is strongly suggested that they left Nirn, either ascending, phasing out, or destroying themselfs.

My crazy musing aside, this also works against the theory. If the "shell" or "skin" even if dormant is where the dwemer reside, why wouldn't they be able to move or resist being controlled when used by a "lesser being", especially a man? There are a few counter arguments to this such: as too many voices no will, or the skin acts like a gem and thus they have no actual control, or even they were simply over powered by the Mantella... But none of these would explain why they couldn't move with the heart of Lorkhan in them. Which I would refer back to my 3rd point: Lorkhan was not dead, and given a physical body he might have ideas of his own in what he wants to do.

Anywho, lots of good thoughts here guys! I thought I'd drop more half-baked ideas down to chum the waters. I'm really happy to have read about the skin theory though. It's just a shame it pre-dated Skyrim, otherwise I'd love to see how he adds in the quest and it's outcome to his theory.

starkerealm · April 2015

KeplerMG wrote: »

Nutronic wrote: »

So, what if the dwemer aren't gone. Instead, what if they trapped themselves inside of the constructs they created? Just an idea, since it doesn't seem like the (seemingly from what's been said by lore) dwarves were all that nice to begin with. Not to mention the machines have function for centuries by repairing themselves, and some even become friendly (maybe children or the few who opposed their culture).

Either way, just a thought I wanted to share and see if anyone else had considered this.

That is what I've always thought. Constructs need a soul gem to operate, and so do soul gems. The Dwemer trapped themselves into the soul gems that control their contructs. They basically mechanized themselves in a desperate attempt to survive the battle at red mountain. Plenty of books talk about how the Dwemer would be at the mercy of no god or daedric prince, and tried to find ways to transcend and defeat the cycles of life and death. Well obviously they did it.

Ignoring, for a moment that it's wrong. The problem with this theory is that the behavior of Dwemer constructs doesn't support it.

If the Dwemer had really jumped into their constructs, you'd expect to see them as a thriving civilization, building, expanding, and, well, continuing to exist.

The problem is, the constructs do none of that. They stand in one place, watching, waiting, guarding whatever they were supposed to, waiting for someone to come along and give them new orders. Not exactly the behavior I'd expect from every member of a civilization.

If the Dwemer had found immortality through their constructs, you'd expect to see them marching on Tamriel, claiming territory, subjugating other races. Building more constructs to enforce their will. Taking some sort of action. But, the constructs are strictly reactive. There's never been a quest that suggests Dwarven constructs are even mildly sentient.

Which kinda takes out the idea that the Dwemer transferred their consciousnesses into them.

Nutronic · April 2015

@starkerealm
I would agree with you, but as other have pointed out, the Numidium doesn't do anything either unless commanded to. Where as the constructs have a base programing they have to follow. Hence the idea that they are "trapped" inside the constructs rather than simply in control of them. Might even be a safer place to be rather than walking around like in Morrowind and risk having your soul "killed". The only exception to this is the quest in Al'ikir (I think) where you find a golem that has a altmer princess inside it, but she is IN THE MACHINE, not in a gem, inside the machine. Not that gems have an increased rate of drop from dwarven constructs (then again I haven't seen the loot table, so who knows).

Still a good point none the less.

starkerealm · April 2015

Nutronic wrote: »

@starkerealm
I would agree with you, but as other have pointed out, the Numidium doesn't do anything either unless commanded to. Where as the constructs have a base programing they have to follow. Hence the idea that they are "trapped" inside the constructs rather than simply in control of them. Might even be a safer place to be rather than walking around like in Morrowind and risk having your soul "killed". The only exception to this is the quest in Al'ikir (I think) where you find a golem that has a altmer princess inside it, but she is IN THE MACHINE, not in a gem, inside the machine. Not that gems have an increased rate of drop from dwarven constructs (then again I haven't seen the loot table, so who knows).

Still a good point none the less.

In other games, particularly Skyrim, it's been established that the constructs use soul gems as their power source. But, they also actually deplete those gems over time. Also, they don't drop grand or black gems, which means, unless the Dwemer had lesser non-sentient souls... which doesn't really make sense. Something like a Dwemer Spider or Sphere would be literally incapable of housing a sentient being. If I recall correctly, Centurions do use grand gems as their power source, but again, aside from the single example in ESO, I can't think of another Dwemer construct powered by a black gem.

Also, remember, the player's ability in ESO to bind sentient souls to low level gems is something unique to them and their connection to Cold Harbour.

Also worth noting that you don't find any Dwemer in the Soul Cairn. If an entire race were instantly soul trapped, you'd expect them to still be somewhat prevalent there even 1.5k years later.

LadyNerevar · April 2015

I have been summoned!

minfaer wrote: »

The Brass-skin-of-Numidium-Theorie is good in its metaphorical meaning, but very few people take it literally, for this does not really fit and there are several pieces of evidence that speak against it, the latest one being Arniel Gane's possible reproduction of the ritual.

Arniel's quest actually supports the Skin-of-Numidium hypothesis. By reproducing the ritual (though with inferior methods), Arniel was able to bind himself to the nearest divine being, who happened to be the Dragonborn, which is why you are able to summon his ghost after the quest's completion.

I am pretty sure, if the Dwemer were the skin, Tiber Septim could not have controlled the Numidium mundanely by replacing the heart of Lorkhan with the Mantella, suggesting that the heart was the only living entity in it.

They aren't sentient in there (and they probably aren't alive anymore, either), and the Heart is the power source. To use a bad analogy, Numidium is an external hard drive. All your files (the Dwemer) are on there, but if you don't have a usb cord (the Heart/Mantela), you can't do anything with it.

I'm going to repeat your point on metaphorical meaning for emphasis. The Dwemer are part of the Numidium, just like files are written on the hard drive, but they aren't the literal skin. They didn't turn into metal plates, and if you were to peel off a part of Numidium's plating you couldn't extract a Dwemeri soul out of there or anything.

LadyNerevar · April 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

Also, they don't drop grand or black gems, which means, unless the Dwemer had lesser non-sentient souls... which doesn't really make sense.

I agree with you on the point, but want to clarify this. The distinction between white and black souls isn't anything intrinsic to Mundus, it's just something mages came up with for morality's sake, and something that was created to address gameplay restrictions. ESO actually has a book covering this.

jcasini222ub17_ESO · April 2015

The awesome LadyNerevar. I hit up the Imperial Library at least once (usually much more) a week its a great site and you do amazing work. Can't thank you enough.

Let's also remember the great Malacath taught never to take a story too "literally".

WhiskyBob · April 2015

Well the last dwemer alive that died during the events of Morrowind should still be alive in ESO. I wonder if we meet him in Vvardenfell.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO · April 2015

i think a better analogy of the soul gem> construct relationship is the construct is the device, but the soul gem is the battery. i would say that the soul within the gem would also be used as "programming" for the construct. if the soul gem is the battery, then it would make sense that over time, the soul within would become depleted over time. with a normal RL battery, that means less power, perhaps the soul gem does the same but more to the consciousness and/or the intelligience of the soul as opposed to just the power within it. since it is a soul powering the device, becoming eccentric over time shouldn't be out of the realm of possible either explaining their behavior. the reason their civilization isnt thriving could easily be attributed to a lack of "masters guidance" as well as the remaining constructs are only partially capable to maintain every aspect of their towns. think of the current US- people (constructs) are building more and more buildings, but the roads aren't getting touched- the road decay would increase exponentially since new ones aren't being built, and old ones aren't being maintained. eventually there won't be bridges or roads, but a full fledged town with wild west dirt roads.

sheggorathb16_ESO · April 2015

This is why I like lore questioning threads, you get all kinds of crazy thoughts popping up.

Hm, I'm kind of flailing in the dark here, I really should read up on lore more, but my minds full of other junk... But I was wondering, what exactly is Lorhkans heart? It is possible to bind part of the daedric princes to objects, hence those daedric artefacts. So what if the heart is a giant kind of soul gem type thing powerful enough to bind a God? I like the idea of that... Or maybe even that Lorkhan became one/the Ideal Masters and controls the Soul Cairn as if it was his realm? I'm sure someone will slap me silly with some lore that proves otherwise, I just thought it was a nice idea...

Forestd16b14_ESO · April 2015

Already though of this and dis-proved it if they did become there constructs that means there soul would have been implanted into them as they done to bring them to life to begin with. If that be the case there be bodies left over. But nope they just simplely dis-appeared and the only people who now what ever did happen to them is the lore freaks at Bethesda and there not telling.

sheggorathb16_ESO · April 2015

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Already though of this and dis-proved it if they did become there constructs that means there soul would have been implanted into them as they done to bring them to life to begin with. If that be the case there be bodies left over. But nope they just simplely dis-appeared and the only people who now what ever did happen to them is the lore freaks at Bethesda and there not telling.

Well there has been reports of ash piles found where bodies would be, and I wouldnt be too surprised if they all turned to ash piles which have been disturbed since most dwemer ruins have been discovered and looted/have various machinery(or other beings) running through them/have steam blowing off everywhere. As to why ash and not bones, I havent a clue, maybe their soul gems are a bit more violent, or they decay a lot faster into bonemeal... Or something else set their bodies on fire, they had enough self defence mechanisms... Though I am tempted to side with the person that said these constructs dont act like they have intelligence, they perform duties, not intelligent actions. You dont see them contemplating art, inventing, or admiring subterranean mushrooms. Though there was someone else that suggested the souls owner may have gone insane with all the time they've been trapped in the construct... Or maybe the constructs programming overrides the soul leaving them trapped and running a body they cant control... sounds about right for Elder Scrolls....

starkerealm · April 2015

LadyNerevar wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Also, they don't drop grand or black gems, which means, unless the Dwemer had lesser non-sentient souls... which doesn't really make sense.

I agree with you on the point, but want to clarify this. The distinction between white and black souls isn't anything intrinsic to Mundus, it's just something mages came up with for morality's sake, and something that was created to address gameplay restrictions. ESO actually has a book covering this.

As I recall, depending on sources, the Black gems are sort of a cheat around the soul trapping spells available. But, if sentient souls could be bound into lower quality, black, gems, I'd think we'd actually be seeing those in the setting. Especially given the rarity and expense of grand soul gems. But there are no petty black soul gems or lesser black soul gems, just altered grand gems.

Also, Galerion was trying to prevent the use of soul trap on sentients, not simply make it more expensive. If we were talking about a character who was controlling the supply of soul gems, and wanted to artificially inflate the value of grand gems, I could see someone pushing for the soul trap spells to artificially "inflate" sentient souls to the point that they required a grand gem. But, Galerion is trying to stop the behavior entirely.

So, it suggests that the player's "native" soul trap spell somehow renders weaker sentient souls into more bite-sized chunks for smaller gems. It's kind of speculative, but it supports the behavior exhibited in game.