Campaigns population

frozywozy · April 2015

First of all, pardon me if my english is bad, it is not my native language.

I made this thread not to blame ZOS or to whine about anything. I made this thread to warn ZOS of what is coming up if they don't change the way populations are being handled in a near future. PvP in general is going to fall down drastically if ZOS doesn't figure out a way to balance populations anytime soon.

For the past two days, populations across all the campaigns have been very bad for the health of the game.

At this time (2015-04-16 7:36PM) :

Thornblade : EP max pop, DC 1bar

Chillrend : DC max pop, EP 1bar

Azura Star : EP max pop, DC 2bars

Haderus : AD 3bars, DC 1bar

As you can see, one faction seems to entirely dominate each campaign. I have been traveling across all the major campaigns tonight, been as polite as possible and had a conversation in the zone chat to understand the general purpose of people being there.

After talking for 30 minutes with the people of Thornblade, I realized that most EP there were either protecting their buffs for pve purposes or enjoying some easy "well deserved victories". The thing is, I have been watching Thornblade with a close eye since I left, 6 weeks ago. The overall population of EP there never went under 3bars. Actually it is most of the time max pop against 1 bar DC / AD. Even though I came there with a very neutral approach, people were very defensive and very arrogant to my questioning and were not very interested to discuss the subject regarding populations balance.

I also discussed with active, dedicted and known DC players who represent Chillrend (the over populated faction), and EP players who represent Azura's Star (the faction who seem to be growing more and more in numbers lately). They all seem to agree on one point. They moved from Thornblade for 3 major reasons :

- The performance isuses were terrible
- The queue was taking too long
- They wanted a chance to win

This being said, alot of players did an effort to spread out away from Thornblade but in the end, it didn't work quite well. Campaigns are still being dominated by one faction and even though some people seem to be having fun dominating a campaign and having easy fight or pve buffs, I don't think this is the best way to keep a growing and healthy game going. ZOS needs to figure out a way to have stable and equal populations for each faction across all the campaigns most possible.

Quote me on this. If this keep going the way it is right now, most people like me with a minimum of common sense who enjoy playing against the best, who enjoy competition and challenge will leave the game because we are not interested to stack a winning campaign or to get out numbered everywhere we go.

Think about this.

Weberda · April 2015

Well said Frozn. All I can say is that way too many people want to take the easy way rather than work or compete. If they take this attitude into real life they're going to be in for big disappointments. I don't know how ZOS can change player attitudes and mindsets but they certainly should not facilitate the "easy way" for their players. It does a disservice to everyone.

Weberda · April 2015

Oh, and ZOS - get rid of the stupid keep bonuses (buffs) outside of Cyrodiil. They don't work as intended and YOU KNOW they don't. They attract players that don't give two cents for PvP.

Tintinabula · April 2015

Making new Campaigns certainly isn't the answer.

#1~Make it so that AP/exp gains are next to nothing if your opposition is extremely low(that way these factions camping gates will be getting NO AP/Exp hardly for camping one bar populations) and ..
#2~ Make campaign rewards lackluster for those who win campaigns with no opposition.

This will give all three sides good strong incentive to run from campaigns that aren't balanced.

DezIsDead · April 2015

very well addressed frozn. you brought out the point alot of people have been trying to point out for months, and made it simple enough and unbiased so that everyone can agree. the only quick fix that would help this is remove PvP buffs from PvE land. I dont know if thats the best option, but its a quick easy fix. Lets face it everyone wants a buff server for their PvE runs, and thats what started this. now with cyrodill having some of the best grind spots you have large amounts of people PvEing in cyrodill, which is great, but it causes more desire for a buff server. I dont know if at this point disabling pvp buffs in PvE lands would even fix the issue.

So i contradicted my quick fix... but hey i was rambling sorry

Poxheart · April 2015

Did Roechacca hack Frozn's account?

Regardless, the points are well made & ZoS should heed them.

Oughash · April 2015

Good post, Frozn.

Couple of notes from the major DC side guilds (Short Bus, LoM -- which includes LB now, MBF). We were talking about this exact topic tonight on TS.

1. We want exactly what you want: a competitive campaign against the very best guilds in each faction.

2. Lag and Performance is the number one and only real issue. Everything else is peripheral. If Thornblade (or whichever) performed well at primetime when it is poplocked on all sides we would be there every night fighting y'all. Every f*ing night. And it would be glorious.

ZoS needs to get real and recognize this as an existential problem. I give Cyrodiil PvP 6 months tops of life remaining if nothing is done.

kevlarto_ESO · April 2015

I agree Frozn, the one cardinal rule in pvp as it has been since it was invented both sides of the keyboard need to be having fun, I know I moved off thornblade because there was no ebb and flow no pvp to speak of, just a large group mowing players over where ever they went that is not fun, not competitive, not healthy for the game over all.

The one suggestion that Brian wheeler had to help balance the population was unfortunately the most disliked but it would have worked. Maybe after the consoles get released ZOS can focus some attention on other things. Like this one.

Itoq · April 2015

Say some new'ish DC or AD want to join Thornblade (for example.) They would not only be fighting against a larger population they would also be fighting against players with some pretty nice buffs while having none of their own.

Does that sound like something you would have wanted to do when you were a newb (or really want to do now after having paid your dues in Cyrodiil already.)

More than one thing should be done ASAP hot fix style, for the health of the game. but ZOS does not seem to have the inclination to start to improve the state of Cyrodiil.

FMonk · April 2015

I honestly think this is a non-issue. Populations are reasonably even during primetime, and the majority of people don't care about the campaign score, since it has been meaningless for months now. We haven't had a balanced campaign that wasn't won by night/daycapping with superior numbers in a very long time. The players and guilds who want competition and good fights will find each other. The only thing Zenimax can do to help this is fix the lag so people are more willing/able to play on a populated server.

Waylander · April 2015

Good post Frozn. I don't always agree with your opinion, but on this occasion I thank you for taking the time to do some zone chat research.

I checked out the EP buff server Thornblade last night (Oceanic prime) and it was pretty dead for all factions unless you tried to ride past the spawn point or gate (good chance to be ganked) or retake a home resource or keep, then some AP starved EP players would turn up (in greater numbers than the 5-7 AD on). Can't blame them.

I had a chat to some of them, they agreed the server was dead at that time slot and they were only gate/spawn camping because they were bored. We went off and dueled in some neutral territory between keeps.

I then went to Chill where my guild has moved and it was a blue buff server. We spent the night winning back our home keeps and fighting off the emperor, so it was more alive that Thorn, but still not a balanced pvp server.

Last night pvp felt the deadest it ever has since the game started.

asneakybanana · April 2015

Seems to me that people are running from any kind of serious fight and just happy w/ PVdooring. Was on haderus last night with Havoc and we were sitting inside of DC owned roebeck defending the flags from AD. Did this for about 10 minutes and left as not a single DC showed up. We went and attacked ash after and instead of defending against us since it was only logical we would move from roe to there they ended up going to defend dragon and brindle instead. This attitude of avoiding combat with certain guilds because they can outmaneuver and out sustain you is terrible for the health of the game. I understand not getting farmed but not even defending your keeps? That is just a whole new level of idiotic mentality. People need to start coming out of their corners and back to a main server and having real competition rather than trying to "farm noobs".

Weberda · April 2015

asneakybanana wrote: »

Seems to me that people are running from any kind of serious fight and just happy w/ PVdooring. Was on haderus last night with Havoc and we were sitting inside of DC owned roebeck defending the flags from AD. Did this for about 10 minutes and left as not a single DC showed up. We went and attacked ash after and instead of defending against us since it was only logical we would move from roe to there they ended up going to defend dragon and brindle instead. This attitude of avoiding combat with certain guilds because they can outmaneuver and out sustain you is terrible for the health of the game. I understand not getting farmed but not even defending your keeps? That is just a whole new level of idiotic mentality. People need to start coming out of their corners and back to a main server and having real competition rather than trying to "farm noobs".

Cyrodiil has been turned into a resource area for PvE. Between the campaign buffs, the AP from delves and now the lowering of AR requirements for certain skills we may as well forget about what we thought PvP was going to be when we first bought the game. The Skyrimmers got their wish - "Skyrim Online". Max level in two weeks and one-shot everything.

RedTalon · April 2015

If it makes you feel better that use to be AD the over populated one

frozywozy · April 2015

I think ZOS should make it so anytime a new campaign starts, you have to register to get into it. A campaign accepts only a certain amount of players equal for each faction. If someone decide to change his home campaign, a slot becomes opened for that faction and others are free to join it. When a campaign is over, at a certain time of the day, you have to re-apply again to join the same campaign again. When all factions reach the required population, the campaign starts.

Something like that

Sphinx2318 · April 2015

Tintinabula wrote: »

Making new Campaigns certainly isn't the answer.

#1~Make it so that AP/exp gains are next to nothing if your opposition is extremely low(that way these factions camping gates will be getting NO AP/Exp hardly for camping one bar populations) and ..
#2~ Make campaign rewards lackluster for those who win campaigns with no opposition.

This will give all three sides good strong incentive to run from campaigns that aren't balanced.

THIS 100%

Sphinx2318 · April 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

I think ZOS should make it so anytime a new campaign starts, you have to register to get into it. A campaign accepts only a certain amount of players equal for each faction. If someone decide to change his home campaign, a slot becomes opened for that faction and others are free to join it. When a campaign is over, at a certain time of the day, you have to re-apply again to join the same campaign again. When all factions reach the required population, the campaign starts.

Something like that

Interesting idea. However, i fear what would happen when entire guilds leave campaigns (which happens frequently). That would be very difficult to address.

Xael · April 2015

There is never going to be an equal playing field. Such things do not nor will ever exist in combat. Whether it be in the real world or the video game world, skill and population will always be lopsided.

There really isn't much ZOS can do. Let's be honest, over the past 6 months, a lot of the remaining players rerolled as EP. Why? Because they would rather be on the winning side. I hate to bring this turd up, but look at WoW. When people started realizing certain streamer celebrities played on x server, they made exodus to that server. They felt if they played on this server where the "better" people played they too would end up "better." I heard it with my own ears on Skype a couple years ago that an entire pvp guild left a server because they felt they deserved Gladiator and would easily get it on this other server. I laughed and said "Changing servers won't you make you a better player." At the end of the season after migration, they were further behind than before they left. This is the way of the bandwagon jumper. It will not stop. It is an endless cycle for these types of carebear games.

frozywozy · April 2015

Xael wrote: »

There is never going to be an equal playing field. Such things do not nor will ever exist in combat. Whether it be in the real world or the video game world, skill and population will always be lopsided.

There really isn't much ZOS can do. Let's be honest, over the past 6 months, a lot of the remaining players rerolled as EP. Why? Because they would rather be on the winning side. I hate to bring this turd up, but look at WoW. When people started realizing certain streamer celebrities played on x server, they made exodus to that server. They felt if they played on this server where the "better" people played they too would end up "better." I heard it with my own ears on Skype a couple years ago that an entire pvp guild left a server because they felt they deserved Gladiator and would easily get it on this other server. I laughed and said "Changing servers won't you make you a better player." At the end of the season after migration, they were further behind than before they left. This is the way of the bandwagon jumper. It will not stop. It is an endless cycle for these types of carebear games.

I have to disagree. There are several possibilities to make the populations balanced.

Xael · April 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

There is never going to be an equal playing field. Such things do not nor will ever exist in combat. Whether it be in the real world or the video game world, skill and population will always be lopsided.

There really isn't much ZOS can do. Let's be honest, over the past 6 months, a lot of the remaining players rerolled as EP. Why? Because they would rather be on the winning side. I hate to bring this turd up, but look at WoW. When people started realizing certain streamer celebrities played on x server, they made exodus to that server. They felt if they played on this server where the "better" people played they too would end up "better." I heard it with my own ears on Skype a couple years ago that an entire pvp guild left a server because they felt they deserved Gladiator and would easily get it on this other server. I laughed and said "Changing servers won't you make you a better player." At the end of the season after migration, they were further behind than before they left. This is the way of the bandwagon jumper. It will not stop. It is an endless cycle for these types of carebear games.

I have to disagree. There are several possibilities to make the populations balanced.

I'd be interested in hearing how you could make that happen without penalizing players.
Considering the majority of people playing this game are on the EP faction, I doubt this is possible.

Sharee · April 2015

Xael wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

There is never going to be an equal playing field. Such things do not nor will ever exist in combat. Whether it be in the real world or the video game world, skill and population will always be lopsided.

There really isn't much ZOS can do. Let's be honest, over the past 6 months, a lot of the remaining players rerolled as EP. Why? Because they would rather be on the winning side. I hate to bring this turd up, but look at WoW. When people started realizing certain streamer celebrities played on x server, they made exodus to that server. They felt if they played on this server where the "better" people played they too would end up "better." I heard it with my own ears on Skype a couple years ago that an entire pvp guild left a server because they felt they deserved Gladiator and would easily get it on this other server. I laughed and said "Changing servers won't you make you a better player." At the end of the season after migration, they were further behind than before they left. This is the way of the bandwagon jumper. It will not stop. It is an endless cycle for these types of carebear games.

I have to disagree. There are several possibilities to make the populations balanced.

I'd be interested in hearing how you could make that happen without penalizing players.
Considering the majority of people playing this game are on the EP faction, I doubt this is possible.

I don't think this is true, at least not to a degree that would make it an unmanageable problem. It is not the whole game that is dominated by overpopulated EP, only certain campaigns that the EP population gravitates towards in the hope of having easy wins. All we need to do is to distribute the population equally over all the campaigns (not just EP, all the factions)

Minnesinger · April 2015

Very well said @frozywozy. All campaigns I have been in seem to vary from somehow balanced to extreme imbalance depending on the hour of the day. The points gathered during the imbalance alone has led to 1 faction dominance. With the number of population we should have at least one campaign in comparison to the golden days of "Wabba". We have zero. Did so many of the old players choose to fight easy campaigns or is there not enough of the fighting attitude left? I can´t really say.

Xael · April 2015

Sharee wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

There is never going to be an equal playing field. Such things do not nor will ever exist in combat. Whether it be in the real world or the video game world, skill and population will always be lopsided.

There really isn't much ZOS can do. Let's be honest, over the past 6 months, a lot of the remaining players rerolled as EP. Why? Because they would rather be on the winning side. I hate to bring this turd up, but look at WoW. When people started realizing certain streamer celebrities played on x server, they made exodus to that server. They felt if they played on this server where the "better" people played they too would end up "better." I heard it with my own ears on Skype a couple years ago that an entire pvp guild left a server because they felt they deserved Gladiator and would easily get it on this other server. I laughed and said "Changing servers won't you make you a better player." At the end of the season after migration, they were further behind than before they left. This is the way of the bandwagon jumper. It will not stop. It is an endless cycle for these types of carebear games.

I have to disagree. There are several possibilities to make the populations balanced.

I'd be interested in hearing how you could make that happen without penalizing players.
Considering the majority of people playing this game are on the EP faction, I doubt this is possible.

I don't think this is true, at least not to a degree that would make it an unmanageable problem. It is not the whole game that is dominated by overpopulated EP, only certain campaigns that the EP population gravitates towards in the hope of having easy wins. All we need to do is to distribute the population equally over all the campaigns (not just EP, all the factions)

Well I could have lumped AD into the EP thing, however I know a ton of people who were AD are now playing for EP. Regardless of which of these 2 are more populated, DC is very low. That said, you would have to set a cut off for EP and AD, which is going to penalize people. I personally hate the idea of lowering the population. Currently people are spreading out for all kinds of different reasons, most just want to "win." While lag and queues are an issue to some, most just hate being zerged and want a chance at Emp. Hence the bulk of DC making a mass exodus to Chillrend.

Let's be real, I have been playing for 2 years now, lag has always been a problem. Even with what appears to be a 50v50v50 fight at a keep. While those numbers are made up, it's the best example I can give. The game doesn't handle these big fights well, even in numbers of what appears to be 100-150 people. That said, I can't see lag going away. I mean for crying out loud, they still have endless loading screens, random disconnects, error <<1>>, and guild bank endless loading (to name a few). I doubt this gets fixed anytime soon.

j3crow · April 2015

Well said, Frozywozy

frozywozy · April 2015

@ZOS_BrianWheeler - I would really appreciate a reply on one of the numerous thread out there about this subject. Thank you!