Stop blaiming each other

Area51Visitor · April 2015

I've read dozens of topics where peeps are blaming each others guilds and factions for lag. I lag-disconnect in game about 3 to 4 times a night where everyone else freezes, and I can roam around. When I do, all I see are players on both sides simply trying to play the game.

ZOS has said it themselves. Lag occurs when "a large group of people are around each other". That's it lmao...that's all that this game requires to lag-bomb the server...is to be around eachother. If you don't believe me, check the videos I've been posting, and will continue to do so here:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1718421#Comment_1718421

No one is doing anything out of the ordinary! Just trying to enjoy a game that had a great vision, but was very poorly executed.

The assumptions these devs made ignored the principles other game makers have integrated for years, having already learned the lessons of development.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on BASHING AND SLANDEROUS COMMENTS]

ItsRejectz · April 2015

Lag issues have been around since beta and players have ALWAYS had different reasons on why it's happening, when the fact of the matter is, I belive ZOS bit off more than they could chew with their ambitious PvP. This can be seen, with their attitude recently towards PvP. At launch, it was "enjoy epic battles, with hundreds of players on screen at once" and now they are saying they want to break up big groups and encourage players to visit other areas of cyrodiil.

To me, this shows they are struggling to provide a stable game, whilst loads of players are on screen. Hence the reason I think, they bit off more than they could chew with PvP

Junipus · April 2015

Blaming others for the lag is all a giant conspiracy started by Big Tinfoil to sell their hats and help fund ZOS' development of new pet followers.

Jauriel · April 2015

And then again the same is true that the game has the potential to lag and some players have figured out how to exacerbate that lag to turn the tide when it suits them. This has been observed, reported and claimed as well. Bragged about even.

Dozens of pvp devotees, myself including, have come here and claimed that even in large scale battles they experience little to no lag. Yet in 12v12 or the like against very specific players they lag to death or crash to desktop. Should these claims be totally discounted and ridiculed in favor of your vanilla "one size fits all" explanation for the lag?

Smeag · April 2015

Lag isn't caused by large groups of players directly. It is caused by the abilities they are casting. Certain AoE abilities are greatly taxing on the server and spamming these abilities (intentionally or unintentionally) causes the lag.

All zeni needs to do is disable these abilities (we all know what they are) in PvP for 1 day to confirm this.

LameoveR · April 2015

Smeag wrote: »

All zeni needs to do is disable these abilities (we all know what they are) in PvP for 1 day to confirm this.

It can be easily done on PTS with advertisement like "Try out our new PVP experience on PTS next week!"

Oughash · April 2015

Smeag wrote: »

Lag isn't caused by large groups of players directly. It is caused by the abilities they are casting. Certain AoE abilities are greatly taxing on the server and spamming these abilities (intentionally or unintentionally) causes the lag.

All zeni needs to do is disable these abilities (we all know what they are) in PvP for 1 day to confirm this.

On the PTS they should do the follow:

1. Disable all AoE skills.
2. Let the players test.
3. Disable all AoE caps
4. Let the players test
5. Revise and patch according to test results.

Agrippa_Invisus · April 2015

dap_robertb16_ESO wrote: »

Blaming others for the lag is all a giant conspiracy started by Big Tinfoil to sell their hats and help fund ZOS' development of new pet followers.

But, but, but... our narrative!

Forestd16b14_ESO · April 2015

Smeag wrote: »

Lag isn't caused by large groups of players directly. It is caused by the abilities they are casting. Certain AoE abilities are greatly taxing on the server and spamming these abilities (intentionally or unintentionally) causes the lag.

All zeni needs to do is disable these abilities (we all know what they are) in PvP for 1 day to confirm this.

*cough cough* Meteor *cough cough* Sorry got some thing stuck in my throat.

eliisra · April 2015

Smeag wrote: »

Lag isn't caused by large groups of players directly. It is caused by the abilities they are casting. Certain AoE abilities are greatly taxing on the server and spamming these abilities (intentionally or unintentionally) causes the lag.

All zeni needs to do is disable these abilities (we all know what they are) in PvP for 1 day to confirm this.

This is definitely true. Some AoE abilities cause more lag than others. I'm also fairly sure ZoS knows which one they are.

If I for example drop Caltrops, Spear Shards or use Brawler, performance is unaffected. But if I hit Impulse more than once, than my screen freezes for a blink and everything runs in slow motion, even when solo'ing in PvE. If I use a Meteor, same thing, performance loss.

So what the hell is it with the visuals, animations or particles of some skills, that eats so much memory juice and makes performance dips? If they cant sort it out, they need to disable them than re-design replacement asap. It's no so easy to just remove tho, because it's skills with crucial functions for many builds in both PvP and PvE.

Area51Visitor · April 2015

Player's aren't spamming any abilities the majority of time I lag out. There are, however tons of players preparing for battle. Watch the video for example; neither groups were in battle yet, but I lagged out simply being in the vicinity of the zergs (who weren't even casting much at the time).

I believe it's much more than abilities causing the lag. We are all tied to keeps with bonuses and passives. I believe there's something fundamentally broken with that system. Either way it's no one's fault. I believe caltrops cause me more lag, brawler and wrecking blow as well. So experience varies but this much is true, it's not a players fault; it's ZOS.

Smeag wrote: »

Lag isn't caused by large groups of players directly. It is caused by the abilities they are casting. Certain AoE abilities are greatly taxing on the server and spamming these abilities (intentionally or unintentionally) causes the lag.

All zeni needs to do is disable these abilities (we all know what they are) in PvP for 1 day to confirm this.

eliisra wrote: »

Smeag wrote: »

Lag isn't caused by large groups of players directly. It is caused by the abilities they are casting. Certain AoE abilities are greatly taxing on the server and spamming these abilities (intentionally or unintentionally) causes the lag.

All zeni needs to do is disable these abilities (we all know what they are) in PvP for 1 day to confirm this.

This is definitely true. Some AoE abilities cause more lag than others. I'm also fairly sure ZoS knows which one they are.

If I for example drop Caltrops, Spear Shards or use Brawler, performance is unaffected. But if I hit Impulse more than once, than my screen freezes for a blink and everything runs in slow motion, even when solo'ing in PvE. If I use a Meteor, same thing, performance loss.

So what the hell is it with the visuals, animations or particles of some skills, that eats so much memory juice and makes performance dips? If they cant sort it out, they need to disable them than re-design replacement asap. It's no so easy to just remove tho, because it's skills with crucial functions for many builds in both PvP and PvE.

emma666 · April 2015

Area51Visitor wrote: »

I've read dozens of topics where peeps are blaming each others guilds and factions for lag. I lag-disconnect in game about 3 to 4 times a night where everyone else freezes, and I can roam around. When I do, all I see are players on both sides simply trying to play the game.

ZOS has said it themselves. Lag occurs when "a large group of people are around each other". That's it lmao...that's all that this game requires to lag-bomb the server...is to be around eachother. If you don't believe me, check the videos I've been posting, and will continue to do so here:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1718421#Comment_1718421

No one is doing anything out of the ordinary! Just trying to enjoy a game that had a great vision, but was very poorly executed.

The assumptions these devs made ignored the principles other game makers have integrated for years, having already learned the lessons of development. Unfortunately, ZOS has those baby dps (dev processing strength)

But it's sooo much easier for these potatoes to blame their losing on hax and lagsploitz, and illogically accuse a certain group, guild or Alliance of intentionally lag out the server than actually using your brain... Potato tinfoil hat ACTIVATED

Cody · April 2015

so...many....meteors......

must...make....DK...with...scales.....

Roselle · April 2015

It's called venting. I'm pretty sure every player here has done it in some form or another.

Jauriel · April 2015

Area51Visitor wrote: »

Player's aren't spamming any abilities the majority of time I lag out. There are, however tons of players preparing for battle. Watch the video for example; neither groups were in battle yet, but I lagged out simply being in the vicinity of the zergs (who weren't even casting much at the time).

I believe it's much more than abilities causing the lag. We are all tied to keeps with bonuses and passives. I believe there's something fundamentally broken with that system. Either way it's no one's fault. I believe caltrops cause me more lag, brawler and wrecking blow as well. So experience varies but this much is true, it's not a players fault; it's ZOS.

Smeag wrote: »

Lag isn't caused by large groups of players directly. It is caused by the abilities they are casting. Certain AoE abilities are greatly taxing on the server and spamming these abilities (intentionally or unintentionally) causes the lag.

All zeni needs to do is disable these abilities (we all know what they are) in PvP for 1 day to confirm this.

eliisra wrote: »

Smeag wrote: »

Lag isn't caused by large groups of players directly. It is caused by the abilities they are casting. Certain AoE abilities are greatly taxing on the server and spamming these abilities (intentionally or unintentionally) causes the lag.

All zeni needs to do is disable these abilities (we all know what they are) in PvP for 1 day to confirm this.

This is definitely true. Some AoE abilities cause more lag than others. I'm also fairly sure ZoS knows which one they are.

If I for example drop Caltrops, Spear Shards or use Brawler, performance is unaffected. But if I hit Impulse more than once, than my screen freezes for a blink and everything runs in slow motion, even when solo'ing in PvE. If I use a Meteor, same thing, performance loss.

So what the hell is it with the visuals, animations or particles of some skills, that eats so much memory juice and makes performance dips? If they cant sort it out, they need to disable them than re-design replacement asap. It's no so easy to just remove tho, because it's skills with crucial functions for many builds in both PvP and PvE.

I'm sorry but do you have some magical ability to see what all players are doing at all times around you? I personally ran with a former guild leader who back in the SUMMER was already stacking his teams in towers and inside keeps during assaults, ordering them to spam in order to lag out the server intentionally. I watched it work. I have screen shots of posts from this forum from November claiming guilds in Ep zone were asking people to do the same thing because by then it was widely accepted as a tactic in many top guilds. If it didn't work-they wouldnt do it. And don't pay attention to the snarky "potato, tinfoil" denial posts. Those are for Zos's benefit. The last thing these people want is for ZOS to break up their little tower parties.

The_Death_Princess · April 2015

Actually OP, I have tried to get ZOS to define 'a large group of players' but they just wont do it.

So that you understand, Numerous occasions with video proof (not mine) exist where my guild fight 24 v 24 of another guild and lag is track-able. When we fight them open field, no lag, same functions and teams - yet they are always tightly bunched. That means just like flag stacking. Same fight same time of play at a resource or keep and bam, lag.

This means its at their discretion of when they will use the exploit, which now is usually only for a purpose of scrolls or keep take. And if 48 players is 'large' then we are all in trouble.

Yes, this video evidence has been turned into ZOS.

Area51Visitor · April 2015

Problem is player continue to attribute lag to players, when it has nothing to do with players; getting frustrated with each other. I could say that the skills you use are lagging the game and should be removed, it would alleviate the calculations the coding has to make and I could use the one's I want. Who decides which skill gets to stay? It doesn't matter if one causes more stress than the other. If the entire nightblade or sorc skill line was removed from the system that 25% less class calculations on the server which would allow others to use the skills they use.

And if you watched the video you'd have seen I am able to run around and see what people are casting constantly; I crash like that all the time. That said, people are always just playing the game. No groups are stacked doing anything out of the ordinary. That also said; if I even go near a 50 man zerg / keep, I lag no matter what. Simply because there are 60 peeps there all tied to the system with passives and skills based on buffs and keep bonuses.

Focusing on players being the cause of the lag is a never-winning battle. I could easily argue that you should be removed from the game, and the world would be a less laggy place simply because it wouldn't have to accommodation you in its calcs, and then I could spam anything I want. It's just not an appropriate argue to make. The appropriate thing to do is realize the game is fundamentally flawed, and at times unplayable, stop blaming each other and put the blame where it belongs: ZOS.

Jauriel wrote: »

Area51Visitor wrote: »

Player's aren't spamming any abilities the majority of time I lag out. There are, however tons of players preparing for battle. Watch the video for example; neither groups were in battle yet, but I lagged out simply being in the vicinity of the zergs (who weren't even casting much at the time).

I believe it's much more than abilities causing the lag. We are all tied to keeps with bonuses and passives. I believe there's something fundamentally broken with that system. Either way it's no one's fault. I believe caltrops cause me more lag, brawler and wrecking blow as well. So experience varies but this much is true, it's not a players fault; it's ZOS.

Smeag wrote: »

Lag isn't caused by large groups of players directly. It is caused by the abilities they are casting. Certain AoE abilities are greatly taxing on the server and spamming these abilities (intentionally or unintentionally) causes the lag.

All zeni needs to do is disable these abilities (we all know what they are) in PvP for 1 day to confirm this.

eliisra wrote: »

Smeag wrote: »

Lag isn't caused by large groups of players directly. It is caused by the abilities they are casting. Certain AoE abilities are greatly taxing on the server and spamming these abilities (intentionally or unintentionally) causes the lag.

All zeni needs to do is disable these abilities (we all know what they are) in PvP for 1 day to confirm this.

This is definitely true. Some AoE abilities cause more lag than others. I'm also fairly sure ZoS knows which one they are.

If I for example drop Caltrops, Spear Shards or use Brawler, performance is unaffected. But if I hit Impulse more than once, than my screen freezes for a blink and everything runs in slow motion, even when solo'ing in PvE. If I use a Meteor, same thing, performance loss.

So what the hell is it with the visuals, animations or particles of some skills, that eats so much memory juice and makes performance dips? If they cant sort it out, they need to disable them than re-design replacement asap. It's no so easy to just remove tho, because it's skills with crucial functions for many builds in both PvP and PvE.

I'm sorry but do you have some magical ability to see what all players are doing at all times around you? I personally ran with a former guild leader who back in the SUMMER was already stacking his teams in towers and inside keeps during assaults, ordering them to spam in order to lag out the server intentionally. I watched it work. I have screen shots of posts from this forum from November claiming guilds in Ep zone were asking people to do the same thing because by then it was widely accepted as a tactic in many top guilds. If it didn't work-they wouldnt do it. And don't pay attention to the snarky "potato, tinfoil" denial posts. Those are for Zos's benefit. The last thing these people want is for ZOS to break up their little tower parties.

xDOVAHKIINx · April 2015

People just want to give up a reason to justify their losses. Usually aimed at 2-3 EP guilds, which at the same time spawned "Tin-Foil hat theories" and a huge resentment. And all the while forgetting that the true culprit for lag is ZOS, like i read earlier "Blaming players for lag is only giving ZOS an out."

Reasonable people know its not players, the rest are daft.

Jauriel · April 2015

Actually reasonable people realize the blame falls on BOTH ZOS and the players exploiting the game mechanics and the server response to those game mechanics being ABUSED.

I mean for crying out loud this is getting so stupid! Anyone who pvp's knows inside certain important keeps when two factions stack the back flag and every player is spamming healing springs or high particle aoe- the server COLLAPSES. it just totally melts before our eyes. Do you honestly think some people haven't used that knowlege to their benefit and reproduced it when they wanted to? Come on! It's not mystical or magical or tin foilery. We see it happen with our own eyes! How can you sit there typing out your ridiculous denials with a straight face anymore? This is amazing to me. SMH.

Bahalul · April 2015

Jauriel wrote: »

Actually reasonable people realize the blame falls on BOTH ZOS and the players exploiting the game mechanics and the server response to those game mechanics being ABUSED.

I mean for crying out loud this is getting so stupid! Anyone who pvp's knows inside certain important keeps when two factions stack the back flag and every player is spamming healing springs or high particle aoe- the server COLLAPSES. it just totally melts before our eyes. Do you honestly think some people haven't used that knowlege to their benefit and reproduced it when they wanted to? Come on! It's not mystical or magical or tin foilery. We see it happen with our own eyes! How can you sit there typing out your ridiculous denials with a straight face anymore? This is amazing to me. SMH.

Zhoyzu · April 2015

Congrats, you're now my new scapegoat.\

MATH SUCKS your fault OP

Area51Visitor · April 2015

Point is if that was all the server was calculating was particles and AOE it wouldn't be a problem. So to single it out to be the problem, people are not looking at the picture in a whole. Simply tunnel visioned on particles. Had particles been the primary and only source of lag. You also should admit that you've been in lag when you've not been around particles or AOE at all.

Our group today didn't cast anything while in a zerg lag battle (full raid of us), and it didn't help. Simply being there was enough to lag the server.

That said, I understand why people tunnel vision to what they think the source of the problem is; lots of people do, who can't consider the entire picture which include the many passive abilities that scale of distance from keeps, the fact that players are casting sap essence, shooting arrows, flames from their staves and more all while AOE is going off. A person could easily argue that all single target damage and passives should be removed and the only thing the server should be calculating is AOE damage, which would like solve the servers problem. Argument can be made either way. So the point is, stop with the tunnel vision, stop fighting with eachother, acknowledge that not one thing by itself is the source of game failure, and just quit or play.

Again, our entire raid stopped casting completely, and the lag continued. If it was the skill itself, that wouldn't have been the case. As well, the same abilities don't lag in lower campaign and PVE, and there would be evidence / drop of performance if people simply spammed them in groups in the middle of nowhere so this would be very easy to test. Hop on PTS, run a full raid and simply spam healing springs. If done with a spirit of progress and real testing I imagine you'll notice it not causing performance issues.

Bahalul wrote: »

Jauriel wrote: »

Actually reasonable people realize the blame falls on BOTH ZOS and the players exploiting the game mechanics and the server response to those game mechanics being ABUSED.

I mean for crying out loud this is getting so stupid! Anyone who pvp's knows inside certain important keeps when two factions stack the back flag and every player is spamming healing springs or high particle aoe- the server COLLAPSES. it just totally melts before our eyes. Do you honestly think some people haven't used that knowlege to their benefit and reproduced it when they wanted to? Come on! It's not mystical or magical or tin foilery. We see it happen with our own eyes! How can you sit there typing out your ridiculous denials with a straight face anymore? This is amazing to me. SMH.

emma666 · April 2015

Roselle wrote: »

It's called venting. I'm pretty sure every player here has done it in some form or another.

I see a big, big difference between venting and accusations of innocent guilds, people and alliances ''hacking'' and ''lagsploiting'', reporting them and wanting permabans for people who are victims of the lag too. What's been on the forums lately isn't venting about the frustration of lag, it's accusations, subtly but surely naming and shaming people who have the EXACT same problems. It's what this thread is about, stop blaming eachother and blame the game.

RinaldoGandolphi · April 2015

Why should I believe no one intentionally exploits game flaws to l lag server when evidence is everywhere that any bug, glitch, etc they gives an advantage will be used by certain players.

McDoogs · April 2015

It's comforting to blame someone besides ZOS. Blaming ZOS is a waste of energy, as clearly they can't or won't do anything to fix the problem, and they don't even engage in discussion about it. At least if I blame EP, some EP person will come on here and troll me back and we can have catharsis together.

Jauriel · April 2015

Area51Visitor wrote: »

Point is if that was all the server was calculating was particles and AOE it wouldn't be a problem. So to single it out to be the problem, people are not looking at the picture in a whole. Simply tunnel visioned on particles. Had particles been the primary and only source of lag. You also should admit that you've been in lag when you've not been around particles or AOE at all.

Our group today didn't cast anything while in a zerg lag battle (full raid of us), and it didn't help. Simply being there was enough to lag the server.

That said, I understand why people tunnel vision to what they think the source of the problem is; lots of people do, who can't consider the entire picture which include the many passive abilities that scale of distance from keeps, the fact that players are casting sap essence, shooting arrows, flames from their staves and more all while AOE is going off. A person could easily argue that all single target damage and passives should be removed and the only thing the server should be calculating is AOE damage, which would like solve the servers problem. Argument can be made either way. So the point is, stop with the tunnel vision, stop fighting with eachother, acknowledge that not one thing by itself is the source of game failure, and just quit or play.

Again, our entire raid stopped casting completely, and the lag continued. If it was the skill itself, that wouldn't have been the case. As well, the same abilities don't lag in lower campaign and PVE, and there would be evidence / drop of performance if people simply spammed them in groups in the middle of nowhere so this would be very easy to test. Hop on PTS, run a full raid and simply spam healing springs. If done with a spirit of progress and real testing I imagine you'll notice it not causing performance issues.

I really wish people would learn to condense on here. My attention span can only handle one, maybe two paragraphs of these long winded, bloviating denial posts. Save them. Save your words. There are many sources of lag. We all know that. We are asking that those who knowingly exploit the existing sources of lag be stopped. Period. End of sentence and end of argument.

Rylana · April 2015

xDOVAHKIINx wrote: »

People just want to give up a reason to justify their losses. Usually aimed at 2-3 EP guilds, which at the same time spawned "Tin-Foil hat theories" and a huge resentment. And all the while forgetting that the true culprit for lag is ZOS, like i read earlier "Blaming players for lag is only giving ZOS an out."

Reasonable people know its not players, the rest are daft.

I will counter this by saying that in the past ive had both good victories, and deserved losses vs each and every one of those EP groups that get accused of things.

Some of them I dont like personally, some of them I am actually on decent terms with.

None of them are so poor at the game that they would need to crutch on an exploit to win. There are a few bad eggs among those groups that everyone knows both can and will use whatever available cheat they can get their hands on to win and then talk massive trash about how epix leet they are. It wasnt until the last oh two months or so it became completely obvious which few those are, because when those specific individuals are not around, hey its a clean fight, win or lose. You can tell those fights contain no cheating.

But the others do. Over and over. And we have all seen it. So just stop man. This constant damage control incredulity is tiresome.

Rylana · April 2015

emma666 wrote: »

Roselle wrote: »

It's called venting. I'm pretty sure every player here has done it in some form or another.

I see a big, big difference between venting and accusations of innocent guilds, people and alliances ''hacking'' and ''lagsploiting'', reporting them and wanting permabans for people who are victims of the lag too. What's been on the forums lately isn't venting about the frustration of lag, it's accusations, subtly but surely naming and shaming people who have the EXACT same problems. It's what this thread is about, stop blaming eachother and blame the game.

Yeah ill remember that the next time my entire raid cant activate skills or do anything because latency is over 4000 while that group is clearly able to both do damage and heal, as well as pick up scrolls and use siege, things no one experiencing the lag can actually do.

I can think of no less than five different times (when I was actually there) where that particular group was involved with a massive lagspike and a scroll which was clearly under siege and caltrops is magically lifted. The lag always favors that particular group and no one else, i wonder why.

The most memorable of these events was when that group jumped up on a ledge in the scroll temple of Mnem for nearly an hour, maybe 15 of them all told, spamming healing springs and walls of elements all over below them. Not a single person in AD could do much of anything except try to avoid bad stuff on the ground. None of the reds were taking damage, nothing was registering. But somehow an EP casually walked over to the scroll pedestal, lifted the scroll up, and walked away with it, and literally no one could hit him. By the time the lag had eased, the scroll was already out of the gate and halfway to Drakelowe.

glak · April 2015

Rylana wrote: »

emma666 wrote: »

Roselle wrote: »

It's called venting. I'm pretty sure every player here has done it in some form or another.

I see a big, big difference between venting and accusations of innocent guilds, people and alliances ''hacking'' and ''lagsploiting'', reporting them and wanting permabans for people who are victims of the lag too. What's been on the forums lately isn't venting about the frustration of lag, it's accusations, subtly but surely naming and shaming people who have the EXACT same problems. It's what this thread is about, stop blaming eachother and blame the game.

Yeah ill remember that the next time my entire raid cant activate skills or do anything because latency is over 4000 while that group is clearly able to both do damage and heal, as well as pick up scrolls and use siege, things no one experiencing the lag can actually do.

I can think of no less than five different times (when I was actually there) where that particular group was involved with a massive lagspike and a scroll which was clearly under siege and caltrops is magically lifted. The lag always favors that particular group and no one else, i wonder why.

Ground-based and point-blank AoEs can be queued without targeting anything. Single-enemy targeting AoE's like meteor can also be queued with great effect. Just queue them up on the intended path, and the enemy thinks you're not lagging.

HeroOfNone · April 2015

There are certain abilities that if used with large numbers will lag the server. These abilities have been found to be used by various large groups in areas where no enemies are at while inside a keep or a remote section of a map with no enemies around.This is not the majority of the faction, but it does seem to be some of the larger groups. You can almost know who to expect to see when you notice the lag spiking in a campaign.

The most we can do right now is report these folks when you see them and record video if you have the capability. Slinging the accusations won't do much except make them hide it. Might as well make them think they won't be caught so they get more blazen.

BloodStorm · April 2015

I am superior to you and want you to know it. - Some random Altmer