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Beware entitlement game modification
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Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Seems to me too OP to be able to switch race etc so quickly and be max level. If you want to switch race or class etc then it should take some time to do. You should not be handed a bunch of pvp ranks on your newly made character. Either play your main or earn them on your alt.
I actually I hate much of what you write sometimes but on this I do agree and it does worry me.
Why do people really want account wide alliance ranks.
Is it really so they can use the optimise race/class to maximise the alliance war skills ?
In effect.....get a free class/race respec.
@OP
The alliance war skills are gated behind an impossible grind for many with uber power locked behind them.
I see no reason why this skill tree should take any longer to achieve than any other skill tree.
BUT...I also think the alliance rank should be a hard and recognised achievement and should be on a character by character basis.
Skill trees are also ...character development...not player development.
So should all achievements be player based rather than character based ? I don't know TBH as they are one time events.
What I would like to see is ..
Trial skill tree | PVP skill tree etc that ranks up like other skill trees speed wise and separated from rank.
This then makes the process more tolerable to those with many Alts....lets you build a character over time...stop uber powers being locked aways making gods among men.
This is all pretty much about the skill tree at the end of the day rather than the ranks I think.Edited by Rune_Relic on April 10, 2015 7:39PMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »I think nothing should be shared. CP, skyshards etc should not be shared. You want a new character then buckle down and do it. If you hand people everything they will get bored and leave. They have no investment in the character.
If this were imposed I'd want to be able to start earning CP at level 1. I'm not sure I agree with this option, but it sounds like it's worth exploring, unless it's too late to change the things that are account wide (dyes, cp, etc.)
Well I think its ok at lvl 50. I mean the amount of xp to get 1 champ point I think is more than lvl 1-50 isnt it? I dont know the numbers for sure but seems like you wouldnt earn very many until you hit vet ranks anyways. I just think for what is per character it should be left that way. I dont think they should waste time changing cp to per character even tho I wouldnt mind it. Just seems with everything they have to do its not a priority. Lets just not make everything account wide.0 -
Exstazik✭✭✭✭"We can't do account wide achievements/pvp ranks/skyshards"....
but in near future "you can buy it from Crown_shop to reduce timespent"
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Elijah_Crow✭✭✭✭✭
✭"We can't do account wide achievements/pvp ranks/skyshards"....
but in near future "you can buy it from Crown_shop to reduce timespent"
I'm okay with accelerated leveling through XP potions, but i'm not sure I would be okay with AP potions.. I would have to give that some thought.0 -
Sinthrax✭✭✭✭Elijah_Crow wrote: »The sense of entitlement and desire for instant gratification can destroy a game. If you have little effort to achieve, you will appreciate it proportionally.
Forget the game, just look at Society.
And here I was I thought I was the only one that could make the relation from society to the way people act in a game.1 -
BRogueNZ✭✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »
No each achievement is per character. Its called a role playing game for a reason. Each character is a different person. Each character should need to earn each achievement. So its not "you" even tho you are technically playing the game.
If your a Role player sure. I'm not playing ESO for its role playing I'm playing it for the MMO aspect.
Can't fool myself that It's not me behind the keyboard regardless of what character I've got on my screen. Forget that I've done that quest before, seen this scenery etc etc
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jkemmery✭✭✭✭
There's a fine line between laziness and efficiency.
Wisdom shows us what our time is worth spending on.
The cost (actual and opportunity) and the benefits of anything we do.
levelling a character has it benefits, but for me not enough to be worth wasting time doing something I have already done.
By the way; an achievement is done by you not your character.
The sense of achievement and gratification from leveling has diminishing returns. For some people its 15 alts later, for me and possibly others its.. if I've done it once I see no reason to do it again, I see no reason to do it again I see ..
I agree with this. Once I've reached veteran status on one character, and I want to try say, a Sorcerer instead of a Dragon Knight, why not be able to create and then try it out in the veteran areas instead of spending, for me, a few weeks playing to get it up to VR1? At the very least give me some bonuses, besides dye colors, which mean nothing, that were earned the first time around that I played? I know it's a different character, but I'm still the player.0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »
No each achievement is per character. Its called a role playing game for a reason. Each character is a different person. Each character should need to earn each achievement. So its not "you" even tho you are technically playing the game.
If your a Role player sure. I'm not playing ESO for its role playing I'm playing it for the MMO aspect.
Can't fool myself that It's not me behind the keyboard regardless of what character I've got on my screen. Forget that I've done that quest before, seen this scenery etc etc
Its a role playing game. You play the role of whatever character you play. I cant tell if you are trolling or what. Obviously I didnt mean you have to be "in character". You are playing a character tho it is not YOU in the game. So it is a MMORPG. Not just a MMO.3 -
BRogueNZ✭✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »
No each achievement is per character. Its called a role playing game for a reason. Each character is a different person. Each character should need to earn each achievement. So its not "you" even tho you are technically playing the game.
If your a Role player sure. I'm not playing ESO for its role playing I'm playing it for the MMO aspect.
Can't fool myself that It's not me behind the keyboard regardless of what character I've got on my screen. Forget that I've done that quest before, seen this scenery etc etc
Its a role playing game. You play the role of whatever character you play. I cant tell if you are trolling or what. Obviously I didnt mean you have to be "in character". You are playing a character tho it is not YOU in the game. So it is a MMORPG. Not just a MMO.
meh, I'm not paying any attention what so ever to what or why a character is doing what he's doing. Its XP to move on.
So x alts all having the same experience AND the same role is not a mind numbing concept for some. Each to their own.
Not only that, they all get to share the same experience and role within the other factions.
If people want to level alts they will, if people want to skip the repetition; no harm done no foul. Why should anyone else care.
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ssewallb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭It doesn't make sense to have achievements be character specific. In gaming an "achievement" is almost always defined as something the player has accomplished, not a character within the game. They're not supposed to tie in with thematic or story elements. If I 100% Auridon, and switch characters, I didn't magically not 100% Auridon. My other character may not have, but the achievement refers to my accomplishment, not my characters. Things like "kill 500 mudcrabs" or "explore all Auridon caves" aren't goals conceived in the game world for your character to accomplish, they are there for the player to accomplish. It doesn't make sense to bind something to the character that clearly isn't related to the character. In the case where said achievement does have game related tie-ins (Alliance war rank for example), the solution would be to make the thematic elements (the title) character specific, with the possibility of offering an actual achievement for hitting a certain rank.4 -
Khaldar✭✭✭Just bring on the P2W alliance rank potions... I've capitalized enough in my real life to throw my money at a cash shop. Or maybe I'm just "entitled." Yup. That's it. I'm entitled to throw my money wherever I want, because my time is more expensive than grinding alliance ranks on a few alts.
Furthermore sure he is okay with Crown CP pots, but not Crown AR pots. Because he has obviously reached or nearly reached AR 24+, but nowhere near max CP. But I'm sure his attitude would change if he was near max CP and he had nothing to gain from those CP Pots.
I love topics like this that call everyone who disagrees (enter random shaming name). It's definitely myopic in scope and shows the OP is looking to shame others into agreeing with him instead of having an open adult discussion. No wonder the mods had to rename it.
Edited by Khaldar on April 11, 2015 3:14AM2 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Can't fool myself that It's not me behind the keyboard regardless of what character I've got on my screen. Forget that I've done that quest before, seen this scenery etc etc
Ahh... but can your character truly know all that you know?
That familarity you mention - that knowing where the bosses are, what combos are good, what rythem to use when doing animation cancelling - that's "you".
And that's all you get
Because your characters are not the Dalai Lama.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis0 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »It doesn't make sense to have achievements be character specific. In gaming an "achievement" is almost always defined as something the player has accomplished, not a character within the game. . Things like "kill 500 mudcrabs" or "explore all Auridon caves" aren't goals conceived in the game world for your character to accomplish, they are there for the player to accomplish.
The problem with your logic is that it is not possible to "explore all Auridon caves" without being in Auridon. As a character.
You, the player, accomplish nothing in this game. You are the oversoul.
And like I mentioned before, you are not the Dalai LamaTenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis0 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Elijah_Crow wrote: »I disagree. Call me entitlement-kid or whatever you like. Saying "the champion system is accountwide because it is so tedious and that is fine" and then mash in together the three other topics and say that "this is entitlement generation, gtfo" is just plain inconsequential.
It was good that there are three separate discussions on those topics because they cannot be lumped together. You have:- Achievements: They may be the longest and most tedious grind in the game, but they have no direct consequence on gameplay. At all.
- Skyshards: This is the skill point discussion and only this. Skill points are the vertical progression part (up to a certain limit when they stop progress and just widen options, approximately at 100 skill points). This cannot be lumped together with any of the other issues as it is the most defining progress a character makes in this game, even more so than item progression.
- Alliance war ranks. While these do add skill points, it is usually those skill points you get on top of the ones you need for your build. You enter serious AvA with a reasonable start on a build and not to make this start.
I put them together because the belong together and fundamentally undermine developing a long term character, and yes I think you are one of those entitlement kids.
I disagree and I believe the arguments are and should all stay seperated. Lumping them together and saying draw the line is the "entitled" problem. None of us hold the voice for everyone who plays the game. How each person plays the game and how they feel on each issue needs to be discussed and addressed separately.-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sometimes it has nothing to do with instant gratification.
Sometimes there are guys like me that just dont feel the need to sit on high horses pointing at new players and lowlevels to endure long and boring grinds and would like to see shorter ways for them to catch up and join us.
I think those who say "I went through hell and back 15 times and so must you to reach where I am" are the ones full of entitlement-issues.
^THIS!-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5012 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭So now its hell and back leveling up huh? If you guys think the game is "hell" why on earth do you play it?0 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »So now its hell and back leveling up huh? If you guys think the game is "hell" why on earth do you play it?
Yup, was wonderin' the same thing myself.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis0 -
Cody✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭i want alliance war ranks to be account wide because it simply takes too freaking long to get them. I have PvPed since wabbjack with my Vr14 and she just hit AR17 today. I will have to re-do 8 months of PvP just to get my rank back. This is unacceptable. It is not entitlement, it is the fact I do not have the time to do 8 months of PvP over and over again just to re-reach a rank,
everything else I agree with.Edited by Cody on April 11, 2015 4:02AM0 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »So now its hell and back leveling up huh? If you guys think the game is "hell" why on earth do you play it?
We aren't...people get to VR2 or VR1 and quit. We are back cause there is no sub. I quit in June-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5011 -
Cody✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭oh and vigor is a big game changing skill for stamina build.s Its one of the only two stamina heals in the entire game:)
just so you know.0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »So now its hell and back leveling up huh? If you guys think the game is "hell" why on earth do you play it?
We aren't...people get to VR2 or VR1 and quit. We are back cause there is no sub. I quit in June
Who are these "people" you speak of? Ive been playing since launch. Hell before launch. Many of my friends as well.0 -
ssewallb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
This isn't a problem with my logic.newtinmpls wrote: »ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »It doesn't make sense to have achievements be character specific. In gaming an "achievement" is almost always defined as something the player has accomplished, not a character within the game. . Things like "kill 500 mudcrabs" or "explore all Auridon caves" aren't goals conceived in the game world for your character to accomplish, they are there for the player to accomplish.
The problem with your logic is that it is not possible to "explore all Auridon caves" without being in Auridon. As a character.You, the player, accomplish nothing in this game.
???
I didn't just earn the monster hunter achievement by killing multiple mob types? That wasn't me, it was the fictional character that I control with my keyboard and mouse who did it all by himself and made me imagine it? You're freaking me out here man.
Also I guess the way achievements have been defined in literally every content distribution system for more than a decade is just wrong?0 -
BigM✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZoS go on give them account wide everything. Make it a 50,000 crown buy to unlock account wide sharing. But the rest of us get to play the game our way without account wide. Problem solved.“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.”
― Stephen Hawking0 -
Sinthrax✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »So now its hell and back leveling up huh? If you guys think the game is "hell" why on earth do you play it?
We aren't...people get to VR2 or VR1 and quit. We are back cause there is no sub. I quit in June
Who are these "people" you speak of? Ive been playing since launch. Hell before launch. Many of my friends as well.
I also quit at VR2 and came back after B2P. I am one that he speaks of.0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »So now its hell and back leveling up huh? If you guys think the game is "hell" why on earth do you play it?
We aren't...people get to VR2 or VR1 and quit. We are back cause there is no sub. I quit in June
Who are these "people" you speak of? Ive been playing since launch. Hell before launch. Many of my friends as well.
I also quit at VR2 and came back after B2P. I am one that he speaks of.
Ok so you two. Anyone else? lol Or should we change the entire game just for you guys?0 -
Sinthrax✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »So now its hell and back leveling up huh? If you guys think the game is "hell" why on earth do you play it?
We aren't...people get to VR2 or VR1 and quit. We are back cause there is no sub. I quit in June
Who are these "people" you speak of? Ive been playing since launch. Hell before launch. Many of my friends as well.
I also quit at VR2 and came back after B2P. I am one that he speaks of.
Ok so you two. Anyone else? lol Or should we change the entire game just for you guys?
Where did I say change the game? I just answered your question and if you think it was only 2...I just dont know what to say except carry on. Enough people quit that the game went B2P.
But since you bring it up if they changed the game like I want it they would have to start over.Edited by Sinthrax on April 11, 2015 4:44AM0 -
Khaldar✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »So now its hell and back leveling up huh? If you guys think the game is "hell" why on earth do you play it?
We aren't...people get to VR2 or VR1 and quit. We are back cause there is no sub. I quit in June
Who are these "people" you speak of? Ive been playing since launch. Hell before launch. Many of my friends as well.
I started at pre-launch with four other friends. All of us well engaged in our careers, but play MMOs to get away and zone out. All of us quit between VR1 and VR4. I was the only one to return 9 months later. Even though it is P2P, they aren't coming back due to the grind. Which is fine. There do need to be grinds. However, repeating those grinds on alts is borderline torture and might be compared to waterboarding by some.0 -
Naivefanboi✭✭✭✭Elijah_Crow wrote: »ESO has a few things about its game play that can be challenging and some accomplishments can take considerable time to achieve. These include gaining champion points, alliance ranks, achievements, and veteran levels.
Veteran ranks have been a substantial barrier to creating alt characters and experiencing end game content with them for more casual players and if ZOS moves forward with their removal I am fine with that as the Champion Point system not only replaces this advancement, it does so in an account wide manner. This addresses the fundamental and systemic issues which previously hindered players.
Now it comes time to draw the line and say No More.
I have seen repeated posts asking for achievements, alliance war ranks, and even skyshards to become account wide. There have to be incentives to fully develop a character in the game and achieving the above in no way hinders players from progressing or makes them considerably less powerful than a previous character.
I don't mind working for a title I want, or working to unlock Vigor, because it give me something to show for my effort. Each time it is made easier or just given away it devalues the achievement for all.
It's okay to have long term things to strive for, and yes if you create a new character you should have to do this again! I hope the Developers are bright enough to realize that sometimes it's best to say "No, if you want that you are going to have to work towards it. No instant gratification just because you happen to have done this on another character."
The sense of entitlement and desire for instant gratification can destroy a game. If you have little effort to achieve, you will appreciate it proportionally.
[Moderator Note: Edited title per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]
interesting wow just started letting people buy gold with cash...lol gotta make that money.
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jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »So now its hell and back leveling up huh? If you guys think the game is "hell" why on earth do you play it?
We aren't...people get to VR2 or VR1 and quit. We are back cause there is no sub. I quit in June
Who are these "people" you speak of? Ive been playing since launch. Hell before launch. Many of my friends as well.
I also quit at VR2 and came back after B2P. I am one that he speaks of.
Ok so you two. Anyone else? lol Or should we change the entire game just for you guys?
Where did I say change the game? I just answered your question and if you think it was only 2...I just dont know what to say except carry on. Enough people quit that the game went B2P.
But since you bring it up if they changed the game like I want it they would have to start over.
Possibly people quit because the entire game you have a choice between solo and group until VR10 which you are stuck into forced grouping. Or maybe people quit because of the lag in pvp. Or maybe people didnt quit at all and they went f2p because of the console release. I think its safe to say it wasnt simply one thing if they lost alot of subs.0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »So now its hell and back leveling up huh? If you guys think the game is "hell" why on earth do you play it?
We aren't...people get to VR2 or VR1 and quit. We are back cause there is no sub. I quit in June
Who are these "people" you speak of? Ive been playing since launch. Hell before launch. Many of my friends as well.
I started at pre-launch with four other friends. All of us well engaged in our careers, but play MMOs to get away and zone out. All of us quit between VR1 and VR4. I was the only one to return 9 months later. Even though it is P2P, they aren't coming back due to the grind. Which is fine. There do need to be grinds. However, repeating those grinds on alts is borderline torture and might be compared to waterboarding by some.
They probably are the smart ones then. Its a game they dont enjoy. So instead of beating their head against the wall trying to change it they just went somewhere else. Meanwhile tons and tons of people enjoy this game. Play it daily and have since launch. If there comes a time I dont enjoy the game anymore Ill find one I do or spend my time doing something constructive.0