Beware entitlement game modification

Elijah_Crow · April 2015

ESO has a few things about its game play that can be challenging and some accomplishments can take considerable time to achieve. These include gaining champion points, alliance ranks, achievements, and veteran levels.

Veteran ranks have been a substantial barrier to creating alt characters and experiencing end game content with them for more casual players and if ZOS moves forward with their removal I am fine with that as the Champion Point system not only replaces this advancement, it does so in an account wide manner. This addresses the fundamental and systemic issues which previously hindered players.

Now it comes time to draw the line and say No More.

I have seen repeated posts asking for achievements, alliance war ranks, and even skyshards to become account wide. There have to be incentives to fully develop a character in the game and achieving the above in no way hinders players from progressing or makes them considerably less powerful than a previous character.

I don't mind working for a title I want, or working to unlock Vigor, because it give me something to show for my effort. Each time it is made easier or just given away it devalues the achievement for all.

It's okay to have long term things to strive for, and yes if you create a new character you should have to do this again! I hope the Developers are bright enough to realize that sometimes it's best to say "No, if you want that you are going to have to work towards it. No instant gratification just because you happen to have done this on another character."

The sense of entitlement and desire for instant gratification can destroy a game. If you have little effort to achieve, you will appreciate it proportionally.

[Moderator Note: Edited title per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]

P3ZZL3 · April 2015

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

The sense of entitlement and desire for instant gratification can destroy a game. If you have little effort to achieve, you will appreciate it proportionally.

Forget the game, just look at Society.

Cuyler · April 2015

+100 to this.

Rook_Master · April 2015

It boggles my mind how people think Veteran Ranks need to be removed because they are too grindy, but Alliance Ranks are just fine.

The VR14 grind does not even compare to the AR24 grind in the slightest.

Unless you are getting Social Security entitlements, either disability or retirement, you don't have time to do this for an alt.

Elijah_Crow · April 2015

Rook_Master wrote: »

It boggles my mind how people think Veteran Ranks need to be removed because they are too grindy, but Alliance Ranks are just fine.

The VR14 grind does not even compare to the AR24 grind in the slightest.

Unless you are getting Social Security entitlements, either disability or retirement, you don't have time to do this for an alt.

I never said veteran ranks were too grindy, I said they were a barrier preventing many people from playing an alt. alliance ranks do not keep you from enjoying the game and nothing they reward prevents you from playing the game.

Then you don't achieve it on an alt and that's okay. I will never be Emperor either and I can live with that.

LordSkyKnight · April 2015

I believe the millennial entitlement generation has pretty much destroyed the MMO genre as it stands now. That's why cash shops do so well these days.

Keron · April 2015

I disagree. Call me entitlement-kid or whatever you like. Saying "the champion system is accountwide because it is so tedious and that is fine" and then mash in together the three other topics and say that "this is entitlement generation, gtfo" is just plain inconsequential.

It was good that there are three separate discussions on those topics because they cannot be lumped together. You have:

Achievements: They may be the longest and most tedious grind in the game, but they have no direct consequence on gameplay. At all.
Skyshards: This is the skill point discussion and only this. Skill points are the vertical progression part (up to a certain limit when they stop progress and just widen options, approximately at 100 skill points). This cannot be lumped together with any of the other issues as it is the most defining progress a character makes in this game, even more so than item progression.
Alliance war ranks. While these do add skill points, it is usually those skill points you get on top of the ones you need for your build. You enter serious AvA with a reasonable start on a build and not to make this start.

So please do not make a discussion lumping those three issues together just to get a few upvotes on a controversial issue. Leave the discussion as it is, in separate threads, that gives a much better environment to argue.

Elijah_Crow · April 2015

Keron wrote: »

I disagree. Call me entitlement-kid or whatever you like. Saying "the champion system is accountwide because it is so tedious and that is fine" and then mash in together the three other topics and say that "this is entitlement generation, gtfo" is just plain inconsequential.

It was good that there are three separate discussions on those topics because they cannot be lumped together. You have:
Achievements: They may be the longest and most tedious grind in the game, but they have no direct consequence on gameplay. At all.

Skyshards: This is the skill point discussion and only this. Skill points are the vertical progression part (up to a certain limit when they stop progress and just widen options, approximately at 100 skill points). This cannot be lumped together with any of the other issues as it is the most defining progress a character makes in this game, even more so than item progression.

Alliance war ranks. While these do add skill points, it is usually those skill points you get on top of the ones you need for your build. You enter serious AvA with a reasonable start on a build and not to make this start.

So please do not make a discussion lumping those three issues together just to get a few upvotes on a controversial issue. Leave the discussion as it is, in separate threads, that gives a much better environment to argue.

I put them together because the belong together and fundamentally undermine developing a long term character, and yes I think you are one of those entitlement kids.

MissBizz · April 2015

LordSkyKnight wrote: »

I believe the millennial entitlement generation has pretty much destroyed the MMO genre as it stands now. That's why cash shops do so well these days.

Millenial (just barely) here. I agree with the original post. I do not want to play the game once on one toon.. just to make an alt and have it half done already. That is nonsense. To be honest, I'm even fine with veteran ranks. Definitely no to sharing skyshards and achievements. I know, some achievements are brutal and take time.. but that's why it's an achievement - you put effort into it. Your CHARACTER achieved it. Your level 3 bank mule shouldn't have a "Tamriel Explorer" achievement

Why do we need to share skills points? With CP your alts will already be easier to level.

I have no comment on alliance ranks.. as I do not PvP enough to have proper input here.

Gilvoth · April 2015

Rook_Master wrote: »

It boggles my mind how people think Veteran Ranks need to be removed because they are too grindy, but Alliance Ranks are just fine.

The VR14 grind does not even compare to the AR24 grind in the slightest.

Unless you are getting Social Security entitlements, either disability or retirement, you don't have time to do this for an alt.

or your rich ...

once something is unlocked for your character, just like the champion points, and also the dye-achievements unlock - it should be account wide for ALL the unlocked acheivements, it hurts no one and is fair for all people

eventide03b14a_ESO · April 2015

I'm glad someone made a thread like this. It's gotten completely out of hand. I didn't like doing Cadwell's Silver and Gold a second time, I didn't like hunting for skyshards, collecting lore books, or grinding vet levels, but I also don't think they should just be handed to me because I did them on an alt. Alt's should be just as much work as your first character. Often in MMOs the first character I create is only my main until I decide I'd rather play a different class. If people don't like putting work into their character just go play WoW and buy your max level.

Keron · April 2015

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

I put them together because the belong together and fundamentally undermine developing a long term character, and yes I think you are one of those entitlement kids.

Your prerogative. Maybe you'd think differently if you would have read my stance on those points (*), but that may be too much to ask.

(*)Except achievements - I didn't partake there. I have made a comment in a discussion on the German forums from around the time the dyes were introduced where I said that especially this kind of recognition MUST be locked to the character itself, but that was so long ago I can't be arsed to look for it.

Revenant_Spartan · April 2015

Keron it's not about those topisc but they are used as an example as how everyone just want want want. I agree 100% with OP. There are however certain things that you ask for to improve the game or bring to developer's attention. But this constant want for making everything account wide and only needed to be earned on 1 character - it later comes and bites games in the ass. Again, take WoW, end-game and newly released content is burned through quicker and quicker for each passing expansion. People getting bored went from 6-12 months in Cataclysm to people getting bored 3-4 weeks now in WoD. Why? Because everything is account wide and character progression is about raiding raiding raiding. I feel that deep character progression should be the reason for playing. Not just to get to top end and autonomously just mindlessly play. Mindless autonomous play - there are enough MOBA's for that thank you. ESO should be for character development. Not just number crunching and 733Tskillz flaunting.

But that's me.

Gilvoth · April 2015

theres nothing wrong with everything you do being account wide,

the real problem here is that this makes alot of people happy and some of you just cant tolerate seeing other people happy ...

Elijah_Crow · April 2015

Keron wrote: »

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

I put them together because the belong together and fundamentally undermine developing a long term character, and yes I think you are one of those entitlement kids.

Your prerogative. Maybe you'd think differently if you would have read my stance on those points (except achievements - I don't give a flying carnal activity about those), but that may be too much to ask from an attention ..... seeker.

Call me whatever you would like. I don't care about attention for my self, but for the subject. There are many examples of games that are out there who have gone the course of everything account wide. I think they are much worse for it and I don't play those games any longer.

I think it's a very bad development choice.

cyclonus11 · April 2015

I disagree that the Champion Point system is a valid alternative to Veteran Ranks. They are more akin to "Alternate Advancement" as seen in other MMOs like the EverQuest series. If you're going to replace VR, it will need to be an actual level system as those who put work into earning those levels will be sorely disappointed if they go away.

Also, I do not play alts in MMOs as I get too used to my main and alts never keep my attention, and I enjoy doing Cadwell's since I will not experience that content otherwise.

Audigy · April 2015

I ask the OP kindly if he would do Trials and pledges if no rewards would drop?

If you can answer this question with a "YES", then you would get my support with your initiative. However, based on your previous threads and posts and the "not enough XP, no rewards" there, I highly doubt that you can blame those who want more out of their game time.

Emma_Overload · April 2015

I love how people try to hide bad game design behind some political crap about "entitlement".

I did all that goody-goody questing and earning and achieving for my VR14 main, but now I've rolled a bunch of alts that I'm forced to level up because my main's class has been nerfed to Oblivion. I have no desire whatsoever to spend the next 3 months grinding through the same content AGAIN and AGAIN just to get them all to VR14, which is when the REAL game starts and you know it!

You can ramble on about "kids today" like some cranky old man, but THE FACT is that the grind to max level in this game takes WAY too long.

.

HeWhoCaresNot · April 2015

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

ESO has a few things about its game play that can be challenging and some accomplishments can take considerable time to achieve. These include gaining champion points, alliance ranks, achievements, and veteran levels.

Veteran ranks have been a substantial barrier to creating alt characters and experiencing end game content with them for more casual players and if ZOS moves forward with their removal I am fine with that as the Champion Point system not only replaces this advancement, it does so in an account wide manner. This addresses the fundamental and systemic issues which previously hindered players.

Now it comes time to draw the line and say No More.

I have seen repeated posts asking for achievements, alliance war ranks, and even skyshards to become account wide. There have to be incentives to fully develop a character in the game and achieving the above in no way hinders players from progressing or makes them considerably less powerful than a previous character.

I don't mind working for a title I want, or working to unlock Vigor, because it give me something to show for my effort. Each time it is made easier or just given away it devalues the achievement for all.

It's okay to have long term things to strive for, and yes if you create a new character you should have to do this again! I hope the Developers are bright enough to realize that sometimes it's best to say "No, if you want that you are going to have to work towards it. No instant gratification just because you happen to have done this on another character."

The sense of entitlement and desire for instant gratification can destroy a game. If you have little effort to achieve, you will appreciate it proportionally.

One note, I have all the unlocked dyes on my alt that I earned from my main. I agree about the achievements, they should be per character not account.

VR grind... Its a huge pain the first time, not entirely bad the second. But the grind just needs to be eased up. There is really no reason, especially with Craglorn the way it is, to need so much time put in to just levels. There is no progression going on, its just grinding for xp. Do I grind for cp? Of course, but taking weeks to grind levels missing chances on trials/pledges (many pledges of which are vr12) takes away alot of the fun. I don't think anyone wants to go kill the same bandits for a week because they need to be vr 14 for what they want to do by that time (end of gold quests)

Alliance rank, I am not sure where I stand on this. Alliance wars are locked per faction account wide. The one guy that participated in the war to reach his level in the skill line earned that already. It has a few benefits to a pve player.... but to be honest, if I already put in the work for my faction, I dont see it being a problem to roll a new toon of the same faction to receive my level of achievement in cyrodil. I wouldn't expect that on a opposing faction toon though.

Elijah_Crow · April 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

I love how people try hide bad game design behind some political crap about "entitlement".

I did all that goody-goody questing and earning and achieving for my VR14 main, but now I've rolled a bunch of alts that I'm forced to level up because my main's class has been nerfed to Oblivion. I have no desire whatsoever to spend the next 3 months grinding through the same content AGAIN and AGAIN just to get them all to VR14, which is when the REAL game starts and you know it!

You can ramble on about "kids today" like some cranky old man, but THE FACT is that the grind to max level in this game takes WAY too long.

If you had read my original post, you would see that I agree the Veteran Ranks are a barrier to playing another character. Once they are removed, that's where I think the line should be drawn.

Keron · April 2015

@Revenant_Spartan
Don't misunderstand me, I in principle do agree that this demand to have everything account-wide is over the top. As I said, before you judge my statement, read what I have contributed to those other discussions. I just detest this generalization that OP does by lumping the three discussions together.

And for what it's worth: I apologize for the name-calling. It was uncalled for and I should have better self control than to succumb to that.

Elijah_Crow · April 2015

Audigy wrote: »

I ask the OP kindly if he would do Trials and pledges if no rewards would drop?

If you can answer this question with a "YES", then you would get my support with your initiative. However, based on your previous threads and posts and the "not enough XP, no rewards" there, I highly doubt that you can blame those who want more out of their game time.

I'm not really sure what you are saying here about not enough xp or rewards or previous posts, but yes I would do trials to experience them with no rewards. I doubt I would run them repeatedly after getting them done, but I would just for the fun.

Audigy · April 2015

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

I ask the OP kindly if he would do Trials and pledges if no rewards would drop?

If you can answer this question with a "YES", then you would get my support with your initiative. However, based on your previous threads and posts and the "not enough XP, no rewards" there, I highly doubt that you can blame those who want more out of their game time.

I'm not really sure what you are saying here about not enough xp or rewards, but yes I would do trials to experience them with no rewards. I doubt I would run them repeatedly after getting them done, but I would just for the fun.

But see, this is the whole point.

You talk about entitlement, but at the same time you don't think any different. You said it yourself, you wouldn't run them repeatedly because you get no rewards. Maybe a run here and there, but that's it.

The whole entitlement argument is flawed as every human being is entitled. We don't do stuff for nothing, everything in our society is based on being rewarded. Would you work 40h a week, without getting paid? Why do so many health organizations struggle, its because people are entitled and expect huge amounts of money for helping other people.

People refuse to do things for free, its the money or personal wealth that drives us forward.

I fully support a society without entitlement, but we can not get one. What XP, Epic items or leaderboards are at ESO, is the money and reputation in RL.

Nestor · April 2015

MissBizz wrote: »

I do not want to play the game once on one toon.. just to make an alt and have it half done already. That is nonsense.

I like being weak and useless in the beginning of the game. Your supposed to be in an RPG.

Leveling an Alt is the most freeing thing you can do. Besides knowing what your doing, your original character can probably craft or buy something for them to make them even better. So, leveling an Alt is easy.

I recently fired up an Alt to gain some skill points so he can get better crafting writs. So, I am playing along and doing quite well with my crafted gear made by a higher level Alt. Then I remember, I have Champion Points to apply to this character. So, I go in there and apply the 105 points to the L6 Mule. Now he is a killing machine mowing down the mobs with a yawn. I may even play him in clothing only (no I am not going have him run around in his underwear)

Anyone who complains about leveling at alt has nothing to complain about, it's super easy. You don't need to learn how to craft, you don't need to chase loot, you don't need to chase achievements, you don't need to chase all the quests, you don't need to chase all the levels, you don't need to chase all the skyshards, you don't need to farm, you don't need to do anything but quest or grind mobs. If this is too hard for someone to do, then they need to get a subscription to Netflix and watch movies or watch someone else play the game on Twitch.

Gorthax · April 2015

and so B2P was born.......and many other horrible decisions will be made turning ESO into a kid friendly, noob friendly, video game.

Stamden · April 2015

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

It boggles my mind how people think Veteran Ranks need to be removed because they are too grindy, but Alliance Ranks are just fine.

The VR14 grind does not even compare to the AR24 grind in the slightest.

Unless you are getting Social Security entitlements, either disability or retirement, you don't have time to do this for an alt.

I never said veteran ranks were too grindy, I said they were a barrier preventing many people from playing an alt. alliance ranks do not keep you from enjoying the game and nothing they reward prevents you from playing the game.

Then you don't achieve it on an alt and that's okay. I will never be Emperor either and I can live with that.

You think VR prevents people from making an alt, but don't think AR (which takes waaaay longer to grind) doesn't? Oh god the hypocrisy.

Raash · April 2015

Sometimes it has nothing to do with instant gratification.
Sometimes there are guys like me that just dont feel the need to sit on high horses pointing at new players and lowlevels to endure long and boring grinds and would like to see shorter ways for them to catch up and join us.

I think those who say "I went through hell and back 15 times and so must you to reach where I am" are the ones full of entitlement-issues.

bellanca6561n · April 2015

Alas, the merits of the point were lost due to unnecessary use of inflammatory terms.

MissBizz · April 2015

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

theres nothing wrong with everything you do being account wide,

the real problem here is that this makes alot of people happy and some of you just cant tolerate seeing other people happy ...

On the other hand, it can also make some people unhappy. They now will not get the joy of seeing an achievement unlocked on their new toon, nor will they get the rush of finding a skyshard (seriously, I started not using the add-on anymore and it's awesome). It's all preference. I can totally understand some people not caring about finding those again, and thinking it's totally boring.. that's their preference. On achievements specifically.. if they don't want to do them again they don't have to. The dyes are unlocked account-wide, so unless they actually enjoy and want to do the achievements again, there is no reason they need to.

rayeab16_ESO · April 2015

when it comes to account wide, i prefer titals to be character based (especialy faction and quest based titals) as a character from one faction should not be able (imho) to be called by a tital gained from another.
(eg: i have the 'private' rank on my aliance chars, but have not got it's equivelent on my horde chars, since they have never taken part in BGs)
when it comes to things like dyes, i prefer them to be account bound (with certain exceptions, if need be. such as emperor)
because there are faction dyes that can only be completed by being in that faction and doing that quest (and i think not ll of them can be done by doing the gold and silver questlines?)
things like skyshards ect should also be character based, because if you havent visited that place (in that character) how would you know it?

not everyone is asking for account based things, just because they are greedy. sometimes its because some parts make sence as account based, and some dont.
faction stuff (titals and mounts) and race related stuff...make more sence as character based (outside of dyes, because if you cannot unlock them with gold/silver its impossable to get)

but you realy have to realise. the days where you could be super hardcore and keep a game afloat are gone. the generic wave is here. what you call (and when i say 'you' i use the general you, not a specific you to anyone) the Filthy Casual... a company calls 'this years cash cow'. they wont keep a game super hard, super grindy or super long to finish, if they cant force you to sub to it.

newtinmpls · April 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

VR14, which is when the REAL game starts and you know it!

Hmmmm. ... I've been playing long enough to get the loyalty pet rewards. I play a few hours a day on average - some more, some none. My highest character is 37th or so, and I have two accounts. I started "sub" and kept on, as I am enjoying the process of the game.

Apparently in your eyes, the "real" game hasn't started yet. For me.

I think I'm probably having more fun than you are.