Lionxoft wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Lionxoft wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

But hey Nerf sorcs right?

@Ezareth Wish my significantly long ranged abilities did 15k+ damage instant cast .

@Lionxoft They do, it's called Lethal arrow and since it is a guaranteed crit from stealth it is not only far more powerful, has a far longer range and has far more possible damage increasing abilities applied to it.

For me to have a 15K Crit I had to have *Nirnhoned* bug (no longer possible) A crystal fragment proc available (so I'm casting other spells and my target is aware of me if he has an ounce of skills) and I have to preface this cast with a Mage's guild spell like Entropy or Magelight. To top all that off, it isn't guaranteed to crit even from stealth and it is an extremely slow moving ability that is easily countered by dodging or reflected etc.

When it comes to abilities that kill me I think Crystal fragments ranks near the bottom. It's usually Lethal Arrow/Focused Aim/Wrecking Block/Meteor (double reflect bug), Crushing Shock, Poweroverload (usually my own), Heavy Destro attacks and Fragments is probably another 4 or 5 abilities down the chain.

There is absolutely nothing about Crystal Fragments that is superior to Lethal arrow.

I took this screenshot less than 5 minutes ago... It's consistent as well. Lethal arrow doesn't have the opportunity to be instant cast and have it's cost reduced either. Granted, it does have a debuff added but frags has a cc.



I understand that your class is strong and you don't want to lose the power that 1.6 granted you but sometimes you do have to admit that 15k instant cast abilities are kinda powerful.

Ezareth wrote: »

A good player with the right setup utilizing dodge roll right now is virtually unkillable by 1-2 people though.

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

@Ezareth you say people hitting for 22k la do you have screenshots?

Pixysticks wrote: »

If I was a NB I would be sniping for 20k, if I was a DK I would be heavy attacking for 20k, if I was a templar I would do a 20k radiant destruction.

If you min/max every aspect of your damage, and sacrifice every other stat to get there-- you're going to do that much damage regardless of what class you are. Saying things like "look he hit me for 15k or 17.5k with his frags, therefore nerf that ability or that classes damage", isn't going to accomplish anything.

Make everyone take even less damage in Cyrodiil if you have to, but don't start pigeonholing people (even more-so) into specific builds because of individual nerfs.

Lionxoft wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

Poxheart wrote: »

Now with said..Comparing all those to random instant cast nuke Sorcs randomly do is silly.

The class has 1 nuke, and it's only instant cast as a 35% proc chance of using any other ability besides it.

I know NBs who snipe for 20k+, I know DKs who heavy attack for more than 20k, the only way I can get the frag to possibly hit for that much is, prepping it with entropy, making sure it's instant cast which is a random proc chance, then it has to crit, and it couldn't have been block/dodged/reflected/cloaked.

Edit: Go to another thread if you guys want to whine about sorcs guys, how many times has the OP asked to stay on topic.

I'm not saying I don't believe you but do you have proof of this? Stealth hits are a completely different ball game. We are talking 15k+ instant cast nukes not stealthed.

Honestly, I'm not sure why ZOS didn't keep soft caps in some form for PvP. Maybe not the same as 1.5 caps but some form of restriction seems a beneficial change. This wasn't necessarily as big of a problem in 1.5. A blanket flat damage reduction in Cyrodiil isn't going to fix the gaps between abilities, classes or build types. It's just going to make them each hit for lower amounts.

PS:
A sorc telling others to stop complaining... That's rich.

Lionxoft wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Lionxoft wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Lionxoft wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

But hey Nerf sorcs right?

@Ezareth Wish my significantly long ranged abilities did 15k+ damage instant cast .

@Lionxoft They do, it's called Lethal arrow and since it is a guaranteed crit from stealth it is not only far more powerful, has a far longer range and has far more possible damage increasing abilities applied to it.

For me to have a 15K Crit I had to have *Nirnhoned* bug (no longer possible) A crystal fragment proc available (so I'm casting other spells and my target is aware of me if he has an ounce of skills) and I have to preface this cast with a Mage's guild spell like Entropy or Magelight. To top all that off, it isn't guaranteed to crit even from stealth and it is an extremely slow moving ability that is easily countered by dodging or reflected etc.

When it comes to abilities that kill me I think Crystal fragments ranks near the bottom. It's usually Lethal Arrow/Focused Aim/Wrecking Block/Meteor (double reflect bug), Crushing Shock, Poweroverload (usually my own), Heavy Destro attacks and Fragments is probably another 4 or 5 abilities down the chain.

There is absolutely nothing about Crystal Fragments that is superior to Lethal arrow.

I took this screenshot less than 5 minutes ago... It's consistent as well. Lethal arrow doesn't have the opportunity to be instant cast and have it's cost reduced either. Granted, it does have a debuff added but frags has a cc.



I understand that your class is strong and you don't want to lose the power that 1.6 granted you but sometimes you do have to admit that 15k instant cast abilities are kinda powerful.

I said for *me* it was no longer possible due to resistances. 15K crit for a Sorc that is stacking spell power is no big deal and as I just said it wouldn't surprise me to see people stacking critting for 20K. Those same sorcs have no stamina, stamina regen or magicka regen and are truly the definition of glass cannons. Nothing new there.

I see people critting with Lethal Arrow still for 22K. I've seen Wrecking blow shots even higher. Why are you mentioning Crystal fragments in a thread that has nothing to do with Sorcs? Post this garbage in one of the other 200,000 or so Sorc QQ threads.

Lethal arrow doesn't have the ability to be instant cast but it is guaranteed to crit from stealth which might as well be instant cast.

As far as the cost of lethal arrow...did you really just bring that up? I guarantee the cost of your lethal arrow is comparable to the cost of my "reduced" cost Crystal fragment and the same sorcs who cast that crystal fragment aren't using magicka cost reduction sets. Either ability has a negligible cost with existing stamina/magicka/regen. You can spam lethal arrow endlessly and never run out of stamina.

Any way, focusing on Crystal Fragments or Lethal arrow doesn't do anything to add to this thread. The impact from the majority of the points huntler brough up aren't going to be felt for a while just yet as the true effects of the champion system aren't yet fully felt this early in the game.

The reason the instant cast crystal fragments for 15,000+ damage was brought up is because this thread is addressing stamina/weapon damage "bias". I'll say this again... I understand that you're happy with how the Sorcerer class was buffed with 1.6 but it should be pointed out and asked. Which weapon or stamina based ability in the game deals a 15k+ instant cast from long range (non-ult or execute)?

I understand where you're coming from though with your response. Heck, if people were calling to nerf me because my class in particular is powerful and I'm enjoying myself I'd probably feel the same way you do. Defensive.

Lava_Croft wrote: »

If only more Sorcerers were as honest and forthcoming as Maulkin. It would make the discussions surrounding Sorcerers in PvP a lot less cloudy.

You have my . Until you kill me.

Huntler wrote: »

Indeed... and part of the reason. Everything else undergoes an extra layer of reduction of a flat % damage decrease. What scares me about this, is that it will only get worse. We've got players already into the ~200s CS system maxing out physical damage increase as fast as they can.... Important to note dual wield will also be hitting you like this, its just not a 2 handed issue (and some? bow attacks).

Ezareth wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Hello fellow PvPers, its that time of the week again with me to totally bother you guys with annoying things that will likely *** people off who am running what I am talking about, and point out some discrepancies in game that are leading towards a gap between weapon damage and spell damage (in which this gap will continue to get worse as time goes on). This is actually a complex problem with multiple different reasons compounding each other to why we see today stam builds running far more frequently and successfully to magicka builds. I will not be bringing up every compounding point since I do not think all should necessarily be changed, its just important to note that where we are today has been an accumulation of changes and game design problems since June. Examples being that ever since June ZOS has been attempting to make stamina more viable, this lead to significant buffs to medium armor, better armor set designs, etc. The two main points I would like to address as I see them being the easiest to normalize are as follows (Yes I will also be ignoring dodge rolling... that is its own whole can of worms that needs its own thread):

1. Weapon damage vs. Spell damage itemization discrepancy

2. Champion Skill line damage reduction discrepancy


I'll start with point 1. Right now with BIS builds for a magicka user, you can at best get to near ~3200 spell damage. This sacrifices literally everything in terms of set pieces that boost regen, magicka stats, any kind of defensive cabailities, etc. The idea here is to give you a near max of what is possible in a build totally focused on it. In addition, it is not easy getting here, it takes literally 4 different sets and once again you sacrifice a significant amount of stat points, regen, and other bonuses sets provide that we all want, but to really do damage you need to get this high as compared to stam builds.

On to weapon damage, the same type of BIS build puts you at over 4k weapon damage. In addition, this doesn't even sacrifice anywhere near the same amount of stats or regen rates. For brief periods of time I run with someone who boosts it to over 5k, just to put some things in perspective. This has lead us to this very large gap in potential damage between stamina and magicka builds which simply makes no sense. Since each stat scales the same, it truly makes no sense that one is more readily/easily stackable than the other. If it is easier to stack your damage stat, along with the stats that further boost your damage and maintain sustain (such as stam, and stam regen), you simply are far more powerful than the magicka counterpart who stacks all this (bear in mind I hold no bias here as I am a healer ffs).

What lead us here was some of what I said before, significant buffs to medium armor, and stam build sets, coupled with 1.6's unleashing of the flood gates called soft caps. Certain sets are particularly at fault in this (I'm looking at you ravager) where similar magicka sets are much less powerful in regards. Take ravager for example, imagine there was a light armor set where every time you put up a shield you gained 600 spell damage... yeah... that effectively is what ravager is. I only use ravager here as an example, I am not necessarily saying it needs to be changed, but it is definitely one of the contributing factors. Simply put, spell damage and weapon damage need to be normalized if ZOS truly wants both builds to be viable (or at least on even ground). Its no surprise more than half the population is running dps stam builds in PvP because of such a discrepancy. This is once again just one example and is then compounded even more by other issues (on to point 2).


2. In the champion skill line, there is always an advantage passive and counter passive (for the most part). Example being, you can buff you spell resists, but your enemy can buff their spell resist penetration. Simple comparison, but you get my point. Now some champion passives affect both spell and physical damage so we will ignore those (example being crit damage reduction). Instead I want to point out how magicka damage gets damaged reduced on a multi-tiered level as compared to physical damage:

Against spell damage you can:
-% increase your spell resists
-% flat damage reduce each spell damage type (fire,cold,lightning,magic, etc.)


Against physical damage you can:
-% increase your armor
- AND.... JK thats its.... get rekt


The above should plainly put where I am getting at with this, but if it isn't. Magicka damage has to deal with a player being able to mitigate it through spell resist increase along with a complete % damage reduction (which does have a counter btw since a player can buff their specific magicka type damage) while physical damage you can only % increase your armor (thus there is no counter to the champion skill that %increase physical damage). This is a DRASTIC oversight that for now that will continue to get worse and worse as people rank up as this gap will increase. The solution here is simple, throw out one of these silly other passives that feel pointless (i'm looking at you increase the healing effect of potions) and implement a % physical damage reduction passive. It only makes sense as currently there is no counter to increasing it through CS while spell damage has a counter. Furthermore, since spell resists/armor both hard cap at the same point and scale the same, there is no diff between the passives to increase armor and spell resists so they cannot claim the armor scales differently and thus is stronger. If anything it is actually far harder to % increase your armor in the CS system (look it up, the % per point is actually far less than when putting points in spell resists).



I could keep talking, but these are two points with blatant discrepancies I feel many people can see and thus acknowledge the problem without having to freak out about someone nerfing their build or anything. These discrepancies for balance HAVE to be addressed. Should you disagree feel free to comment (or agree) and we can discuss it. Good day.


Edit: Bolded summary sentences for TLDR noobs, but read it if you don't understand them.

Pretty much what I've been trying to say for ages Huntler except the Nerf Sorc herders come out and try to accuse me of whining. The deck is so stacked for physical builds in the design of everything it is a wonder people are still casting spells.

There is also the fact that Physical Armor champion passives only increase armor of a particular armor set only while the spell resistance passive increases your SR based on your adjusted base SR.

The passive abilities given by the Champion system favor stamina builds heavily and the magicka ones are absolutely useless in PvP. 80% magicka cost reduction on next spell after drinking a potion?!!? Stamina Version: 80% Stamina cost reduction on all abilities for 3 seconds after breaking free. Dodge roll setting attackers off balance. Increase to damage to off balance attacks. Increase physical damage after blocking after interrupting etc.

Then there is the fact that magicka users must increase their damage in 2 trees while physical damage users have a single passive in a tree with passives that are actually useful for them! Thaumaturge is in the same tree and the passives there are physical damage only.

Then there is the insane spell resists on every player which on average is much higher than the armor on every player.

The list goes on...but the intent of ZoS is pretty clear.