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nirnhorned on armor broke the game
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Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@DeLindsay is the guy who figured out the math behind nirnhoned in PTS. Any understanding we have is largely based on his knowledge.
Then his *math* is probably the reason we have this mess as it is. I remember the thread and it was before they "Fixed" Nirnhoned. Either way, what Nirnhoned is doing today was not intended and his understanding of how it works was obviously incorrect.
woah woah woah? Is this true? This is totally broken if true.
Yeah now Imagine a Sorc who is forced to rely upon damage shields to survive. This is why we spam them like no tomorrow after every single hit we take because having weak shields active is a sure way to get instagibbed.
Back to the subject did anyone bring this issue up to Jess/Eric at the meeting with ZoS last night?
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Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
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Ifthir_ESO✭✭✭✭✭also the shield comment is bs I run no shields and got hit with a 20k cf two days ago
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Inappropriate Content and Language]Edited by ZOS_ArtG on April 9, 2015 3:52PM1 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Sounds like everyone is complaining of being 1 shot in this thread with every build.0 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ifthir_ESO wrote: »also the shield comment is bs I run no shields and got hit with a 20k cf two days ago
It's also possible you were hit by someone exploiting a bug with CF that increases its damage to more than it should be. I know for me it is impossible to get anywhere close to 20K CF on a naked player. My theoretical maximum is around 15.
That said, I'm also stacking elemental damage, not "Magic" damage in my champion points so putting 50 points into magick instead of elemental would make my Top end unresisted fragment crit for 20K.
All of my elemental attacks and destro staff abilities would then hit like wet noodles.
Sorcs unfortunately are the only class that have no viable path to a single champion passive increasing all of their useful DPS abilities. Our class abilities damage increasing passives are split equally between two different trees and passives
[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]Edited by ZOS_ArtG on April 9, 2015 3:55PMPermanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
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Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube1 -
Huntler✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Due to 1.6's changes in stats, the scaling thereof and removal of Soft cap, Nirnhoned had to be changed. I'll let you in on a little secret as to what ZoS originally did with Nirnhoned, I know this because I'm one of the ones who >TESTED< it on PTS. Nirnhoned was made to be exactly what it states, 50% more value than what Reinforced on that very item would be. If Reinforced gave you +100 Armor, then Nirnhoned would give you +150 Spell Resistance. And like with anything ZoS does it wasn't fleshed out properly. There was only ONE single Armor item that gave a grand total of 1% actual Spell Resistance increase, Heavy - Legendary - Chest came it at a dismal +649 Resistance with Nirnhoned on it.No single trait available on 8 pieces of armor should multiply *any* stat on your character sheet by 24% no matter the scenario.
Nirnhoned is currently the best trait for caster weapons by a slim margin. I'm fine with Nirnhoned armor being the same ....but not by a factor of 4 or 5.
What that meant was that items like Light or even Medium Belts and Gloves would have an actual Spell Resistance of less than 0.5%. In other words, completely useless. Even with all 7 pcs being Nirnhoned at Legendary you would barely make up the value of a single Resistance Glyph on a single Jewelry item, which is 3.4% for specific Resistance. Compounding this problem is ZoS STILL hasn't fixed the Champion System as well as Set Bonuses to scale properly. For 1.6 it's supposed to be 1 Resistance for every single 1 Armor your Character has, but it doesn't work that way at all. To put it in simpler terms, if you had 26,420 Armor you should have 26,420 Spell Resistance (the minimum value needed to reach Hard cap with both Wards active), if you weren't wearing anything that boosted Resists or had any points in Spell Shield.
Unfortunately since ZoS hasn't fixed everything properly it doesn't work that way, forcing PvE Tanks and any Player who wishes to PvE as a Vampire to invest in 1-2 Nirnhoned off-pcs plus often times putting 15-50+ points into Elemental Defender and even then often (1-2) Fire glyphs to make up the absurd lack of scaling for Spell Resistance as per what ZoS said it should be when 1.6 hit. Without a single Nirnhoned on my PvE Tank I run ~27K Armor (without Wards) and ~21K Spell Resistance even though it should be equal. Now I should point out that ZoS ninja changed Nirnhoned body to what it is today from what it was when 1.6 went Live, and I'm not sure when they did it. The way it was at launch was beyond horrible and now it's just about right (for PvE).
As for PvP all I gotta say is boohoo that some Players are learning to use the system for them and take ~50% less damage from others to the point that they have to come here and cry about it. If said Players are actually exploiting and figured out some way to nullify Spell Damage (without Shields) using Nirnhoned and whatever other combination, then yes that needs to be looked at, but ZoS needs to NOT nerf Nirnhoned just because of cheaters (if that's what's happening) but instead find them, deal with them, and fix it so they can't cheat any more.
you lost me when you showed you actually don't understand how nirnhoned is working on live. in the first. sentence. it's modifying base.
I'm sitting at 38k spell resist and 17k phys in 5 lt right now thanks to 3 nirn in a sp dmg build. they're balancing this game drunk with hammers in the dark . don't worry. a few more patches.
To play a little devil's advocate here, I call BS on those numbers of "sitting" at them. Clearly that is with a major armor/spell buff (maybe even the minor one). While achievable your wording makes it kind of seem like you are just at that natively without a buff.0 -
Valnas✭✭✭✭major only, but i have a 24 second one that seems pretty sittable. as sittable as 4800 wpn dmg
Fluph Head EP sorc dank magus
valnäs EP nb
opHotterslol AD dk0 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭They're probably going to wait until everyone crafts a full set of Gold Nirnhoned armor before they fix the bug kind of like they did with the weapon trait bug. This is the kind of things ZoS uses as a "Gold" sink to keep us players from stockpiling too much.
The best part about this bug is you can throw the trait on a freaking belt to get maximum effect where other traits like Infused or Reinforced give much smaller effects.Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
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Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube0 -
Huntler✭✭✭✭✭
✭They're probably going to wait until everyone crafts a full set of Gold Nirnhoned armor before they fix the bug kind of like they did with the weapon trait bug. This is the kind of things ZoS uses as a "Gold" sink to keep us players from stockpiling too much.
The best part about this bug is you can throw the trait on a freaking belt to get maximum effect where other traits like Infused or Reinforced give much smaller effects.
It would be a shame if someone aware of this... bought up all of the cheap nirn mats and significantly raised the prices in anticipation of this... that would be a shame..... borderline immoral....
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Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭They're probably going to wait until everyone crafts a full set of Gold Nirnhoned armor before they fix the bug kind of like they did with the weapon trait bug. This is the kind of things ZoS uses as a "Gold" sink to keep us players from stockpiling too much.
The best part about this bug is you can throw the trait on a freaking belt to get maximum effect where other traits like Infused or Reinforced give much smaller effects.
It would be a shame if someone aware of this... bought up all of the cheap nirn mats and significantly raised the prices in anticipation of this... that would be a shame..... borderline immoral....
How'd you guess? I've been making a 5K a pop markup on this garbage.
FUD is a salesman's most powerful tool ( =Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
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Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube0 -
Pixysticks✭✭✭✭✭
It's also possible you were hit by someone exploiting a bug with CF that increases its damage to more than it should be. I know for me it is impossible to get anywhere close to 20K CF on a naked player. My theoretical maximum is around 15.
To hit 20k you just need 3200 spell damage and 33k magicka, then entropy and throw an instant frag.
The bug you're talking about isn't exploitable, it's just inevitable, but rarely happens. If you get more than 1 instant cast within a few seconds and you threw them both relatively quick then it has a chance of doing 20% more. I don't know how you would exploit it since it happens on a random chance of a random chance of you normally using your main damaging ability?Alacrity
Retired 05/04/15.0 -
cozmon3c_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Pixysticks wrote: »
It's also possible you were hit by someone exploiting a bug with CF that increases its damage to more than it should be. I know for me it is impossible to get anywhere close to 20K CF on a naked player. My theoretical maximum is around 15.
To hit 20k you just need 3200 spell damage and 33k magicka, then entropy and throw an instant frag.
The bug you're talking about isn't exploitable, it's just inevitable, but rarely happens. If you get more than 1 instant cast within a few seconds and you threw them both relatively quick then it has a chance of doing 20% more. I don't know how you would exploit it since it happens on a random chance of a random chance of you normally using your main damaging ability?
interesting i didnt know that was happening, i was wondering why i wreck people when i get the instacast proc after the first frag is flying. it makes sense now.
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Huntler✭✭✭✭✭
✭cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »Pixysticks wrote: »
It's also possible you were hit by someone exploiting a bug with CF that increases its damage to more than it should be. I know for me it is impossible to get anywhere close to 20K CF on a naked player. My theoretical maximum is around 15.
To hit 20k you just need 3200 spell damage and 33k magicka, then entropy and throw an instant frag.
The bug you're talking about isn't exploitable, it's just inevitable, but rarely happens. If you get more than 1 instant cast within a few seconds and you threw them both relatively quick then it has a chance of doing 20% more. I don't know how you would exploit it since it happens on a random chance of a random chance of you normally using your main damaging ability?
interesting i didnt know that was happening, i was wondering why i wreck people when i get the instacast proc after the first frag is flying. it makes sense now.
This kind of effect is not solely with CF either, it happens in other situations when you have projectiles already in the air and depending on what gets the boost.... probably some order of operations issue somewhere or something really.0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So, if I have this straight.
It would seem that LOS is calculated at the instant of cast, hence we have projectiles or beams that follow around corners and go through walls.
At the same time, proc buff checks are not calculated until they land on the target which I am assuming is the same time damage is calculated as the reason for it. So; when a Crystal Frags procs when it is in mid flight, it still gets the damage boost even though the proc was not before it was actually cast.Edited by technohic on April 9, 2015 3:44PM0 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Pixysticks wrote: »
It's also possible you were hit by someone exploiting a bug with CF that increases its damage to more than it should be. I know for me it is impossible to get anywhere close to 20K CF on a naked player. My theoretical maximum is around 15.
To hit 20k you just need 3200 spell damage and 33k magicka, then entropy and throw an instant frag.
The bug you're talking about isn't exploitable, it's just inevitable, but rarely happens. If you get more than 1 instant cast within a few seconds and you threw them both relatively quick then it has a chance of doing 20% more. I don't know how you would exploit it since it happens on a random chance of a random chance of you normally using your main damaging ability?
So only 1550 more spell power and 5K more magicka than I'm running. Got it!
I just hate when people start quoting the numbers from someone who is built to do extreme top end damage as commonplace like every sorc to set foot in cyrodiil is throwing these kind of frags around. Then there is the fact that you have to set the frag up with both a proc and a might of the guild and it has to *crit* and not be dodged/reflected to hit the number. I'm hitting my targets with maybe 30-40% of the fragments that I cast and there isn't really much I can do on my end to prevent that unless I try some garbage stealth ganking tactics.
I'm sure you're also rocking a good bit of Thaumaturge champion points as well. I'm tempted to switch my whole build to pure glass cannon myself just to show them the difference.
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Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube0 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pixysticks wrote: »
It's also possible you were hit by someone exploiting a bug with CF that increases its damage to more than it should be. I know for me it is impossible to get anywhere close to 20K CF on a naked player. My theoretical maximum is around 15.
To hit 20k you just need 3200 spell damage and 33k magicka, then entropy and throw an instant frag.
The bug you're talking about isn't exploitable, it's just inevitable, but rarely happens. If you get more than 1 instant cast within a few seconds and you threw them both relatively quick then it has a chance of doing 20% more. I don't know how you would exploit it since it happens on a random chance of a random chance of you normally using your main damaging ability?
Yes but it appears some people have a much better relationship with the RNG god than others
...so... Anything that can be exploited will be exploited0 -
Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pixysticks wrote: »
It's also possible you were hit by someone exploiting a bug with CF that increases its damage to more than it should be. I know for me it is impossible to get anywhere close to 20K CF on a naked player. My theoretical maximum is around 15.
To hit 20k you just need 3200 spell damage and 33k magicka, then entropy and throw an instant frag.
The bug you're talking about isn't exploitable, it's just inevitable, but rarely happens. If you get more than 1 instant cast within a few seconds and you threw them both relatively quick then it has a chance of doing 20% more. I don't know how you would exploit it since it happens on a random chance of a random chance of you normally using your main damaging ability?
how did you get 3200 SD O.o jesus0 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭So, if I have this straight.
It would seem that LOS is calculated at the instant of cast, hence we have projectiles or beams that follow around corners and go through walls.
At the same time, proc buff checks are not calculated until they land on the target which I am assuming is the same time damage is calculated as the reason for it. So; when a Crystal Frags procs when it is in mid flight, it still gets the damage boost even though the proc was not before it was actually cast.
Don't forget all of your gap closers are calculated at LoS as well.
I don't think you can increase your fragment by proccing after it is in flight. I think he is saying you can "double stack" the damage buff by having 2 procs in a row and *then* launching it. Either way any bug that allows that buff to stack should be fixed.
I just had to look at the title of this thread...for a minute I thought I was in another Nerf Sorc thread. Ohh wait....
Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
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Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube1 -
Huntler✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pixysticks wrote: »
It's also possible you were hit by someone exploiting a bug with CF that increases its damage to more than it should be. I know for me it is impossible to get anywhere close to 20K CF on a naked player. My theoretical maximum is around 15.
To hit 20k you just need 3200 spell damage and 33k magicka, then entropy and throw an instant frag.
The bug you're talking about isn't exploitable, it's just inevitable, but rarely happens. If you get more than 1 instant cast within a few seconds and you threw them both relatively quick then it has a chance of doing 20% more. I don't know how you would exploit it since it happens on a random chance of a random chance of you normally using your main damaging ability?
how did you get 3200 SD O.o jesus
See a post I made on these forums of the top BIS builds to get the max possible spell/weapon damage. 3200 is possible, but literally ever piece of armor and part of your build is meant to amplify your spell damage. Its quite the commitment.0 -
Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pixysticks wrote: »
It's also possible you were hit by someone exploiting a bug with CF that increases its damage to more than it should be. I know for me it is impossible to get anywhere close to 20K CF on a naked player. My theoretical maximum is around 15.
To hit 20k you just need 3200 spell damage and 33k magicka, then entropy and throw an instant frag.
The bug you're talking about isn't exploitable, it's just inevitable, but rarely happens. If you get more than 1 instant cast within a few seconds and you threw them both relatively quick then it has a chance of doing 20% more. I don't know how you would exploit it since it happens on a random chance of a random chance of you normally using your main damaging ability?
how did you get 3200 SD O.o jesus
See a post I made on these forums of the top BIS builds to get the max possible spell/weapon damage. 3200 is possible, but literally ever piece of armor and part of your build is meant to amplify your spell damage. Its quite the commitment.
@Huntler link me please?0 -
Pixysticks✭✭✭✭✭
So only 1550 more spell power and 5K more magicka than I'm running. Got it!
I just hate when people start quoting the numbers from someone who is built to do extreme top end damage as commonplace like every sorc to set foot in cyrodiil is throwing these kind of frags around.
Yeah, you can't even use a staff, you have to dual wield or use a 2-hander to get that much because staves give a lot less spell damage. It's crazy though that in the few days since the patch happened, I can tell how many more people are just re-crafting their gear to nirnhorned. I just watch my damage get lower and lower every day, even putting everything into spell penetration.Alacrity
Retired 05/04/15.0 -
Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pixysticks wrote: »
So only 1550 more spell power and 5K more magicka than I'm running. Got it!
I just hate when people start quoting the numbers from someone who is built to do extreme top end damage as commonplace like every sorc to set foot in cyrodiil is throwing these kind of frags around.
Yeah, you can't even use a staff, you have to dual wield or use a 2-hander to get that much because staves give a lot less spell damage. It's crazy though that in the few days since the patch happened, I can tell how many more people are just re-crafting their gear to nirnhorned. I just watch my damage get lower and lower every day, even putting everything into spell penetration.
sad isnt it. Expected fix for this glaring issue is eta: 20190 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pixysticks wrote: »
It's also possible you were hit by someone exploiting a bug with CF that increases its damage to more than it should be. I know for me it is impossible to get anywhere close to 20K CF on a naked player. My theoretical maximum is around 15.
To hit 20k you just need 3200 spell damage and 33k magicka, then entropy and throw an instant frag.
The bug you're talking about isn't exploitable, it's just inevitable, but rarely happens. If you get more than 1 instant cast within a few seconds and you threw them both relatively quick then it has a chance of doing 20% more. I don't know how you would exploit it since it happens on a random chance of a random chance of you normally using your main damaging ability?
that only works in pve areas in cyrodiil you have a significant dmg reduction (30% if i´m correct) so you would need sth. like 44k magica while at 4k+ spelldmg or in other words its impossible.
spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"0 -
Pixysticks✭✭✭✭✭I'll probably just end up going stamina, like everyone else-- until they fix nirnhorned or sharpened.Alacrity
Retired 05/04/15.1 -
Ifthir_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Pixysticks wrote: »
Yeah, you can't even use a staff, you have to dual wield or use a 2-hander to get that much because staves give a lot less spell damage. It's crazy though that in the few days since the patch happened, I can tell how many more people are just re-crafting their gear to nirnhorned. I just watch my damage get lower and lower every day, even putting everything into spell penetration.
if you are seeing this that says a lot as you always hit really hard
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Huntler✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pixysticks wrote: »
It's also possible you were hit by someone exploiting a bug with CF that increases its damage to more than it should be. I know for me it is impossible to get anywhere close to 20K CF on a naked player. My theoretical maximum is around 15.
To hit 20k you just need 3200 spell damage and 33k magicka, then entropy and throw an instant frag.
The bug you're talking about isn't exploitable, it's just inevitable, but rarely happens. If you get more than 1 instant cast within a few seconds and you threw them both relatively quick then it has a chance of doing 20% more. I don't know how you would exploit it since it happens on a random chance of a random chance of you normally using your main damaging ability?
that only works in pve areas in cyrodiil you have a significant dmg reduction (30% if i´m correct) so you would need sth. like 44k magica while at 4k+ spelldmg or in other words its impossible.
He's talking PvP, and its a 20% reduction, not 30%.0 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There is no contradiction in this discussion.
Its easy to understand that as long as sorces can stack up damage without giving up defense (shields = life), they cant nerf nirnhoned and as long as nirnhoned is not being nerfed, all non-sorc magicka classes (or the few hybrids) are seriously *** up.
As i said, i am one of those who wear nirnhoned. I have 37K resists. The average lavawhip hits me for 2300damage. The average Lotus fan for 3200.
Sorces still crit me for over 10k Damage.
This needs to be understood by all sorcs out there. There are no magicka DKs, templars or NBs that can do this. If nirn is to be nerfed this kind o damage needs to be nerfed too. No matter how much you guys think it's normal to get hit by 10k with 40%-50% spell resist, IT IS NOT.
Nerf nirn. But nerf high damage abilities too, so that people don't die in 2 shots anymore.
Please don't lump all Sorcs together! I don't want Nirnhoned nerfed either. Can you imagine the outcry if players who spent 15000 G per PIECE of armor woke up one day to discover it had no benefit anymore?#CAREBEARMASTERRACE0 -
Oughash✭✭✭✭Emma_Eunjung wrote: »Please don't lump all Sorcs together! I don't want Nirnhoned nerfed either. Can you imagine the outcry if players who spent 15000 G per PIECE of armor woke up one day to discover it had no benefit anymore?
People got screwed when their v10 gold armor became obsolete. And again their v12 gold armor. And again when 1.6 came out. Do you think ZoS really cares?2
