Rook_Master wrote: »

Emperor with Ravager proc etc.. a lot of that is unrealistic to bring into a discussion of sustained weapon damage for the average weapon damage build.

Except he was able to achieve 4816 weapon damage without being Emp. Coincidentally that is almost exactly 3 times the amount of spell power I run with yet I'm accused of running a "glass cannon" spec.

technohic wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

WTB Physical Counterpart of Nirnhoned. (Increase armor by 24% for each peice)

Oh wait... That doesn't exist.

Hehe yeah. If people start using that a lot, I may need to revisit my stam build.

Yeah I've been noticing the people who are doing this for several weeks now and the number is growing. I just avoid attacking those people now once I notice them as I have almost no chance to kill them when I'm doing 60% of my damage to them. I guarantee within a month every hardcore PvP player will be running 3-4 pieces of it. It is just absurd how a few traits on a piece of armor make an entire class virtually useless.

Huntler wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

Emperor with Ravager proc etc.. a lot of that is unrealistic to bring into a discussion of sustained weapon damage for the average weapon damage build.

Emperor? Yes. Ravager proc? No. Any player with have a brain can keep the ravager proc up indefinitely for fights.

Yeah, by exploiting the proc chance because Caltrops counts as a 'melee' attack. Should we really consider that? I guess you're right.

Samadhi wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

iseko wrote: »

Nala_ wrote: »

iseko wrote: »

I might be wrong since I have not thought this true as much as you (djeezes christ). I agree with your analysis at first glance. But a magicka user has acces to better defense then a stam user imho.

Sorcs: hardened ward + bol. With good dps and sustain
DK's: flappy wings + gdb. Not too familiar with dk builds. The one class I never played. Hope someone can help out?
Templar: go for 25k+ health +magicka sustain build -> blazing shield + breath of life + puncturing sweep.
Nb's: sap tank? (Some people say it sucks now, some swear to it untill they die)

Stamina got the burst dmg glass cannons atm. Magicka has got the survivability + relative good dps. I get ganked by stam cannons. Prolonged fights with 1 guy tanking five while killing people? Magicka builds.

permaroll dodging is the best defense in the game, lmao, and magicka has the burst dmg glass cannons. think you got it a lil backwards brah

Perma dodgers are annoying at best. Getting hit by a crit rush from a stam glass cannon hurts like a mofo. Cryst frag for example? Not nearly as much. What magicka builds do have is delayed dmg (curse, inevitable det) combine that with another high dmg attack and you are going to get recked. Aoe dmg doesbt count imho. Oh yea!!! I can do 20k dps!!! Split up over 12people... Wow... Nice...

If you are getting hit for full damage by Magicka Detonation, and Curse its your own fault. its the most telegraphed burst damage in the game, if you cant pop one boneshield for that and negate all the damage because shields cannot be crit then thats your own fault. i get hit as hard as 20k and more from stealthers burst all the time with zero telegraphs.

Doesn't Bone Shield only mitigate physical damage in a manner similar to how Annulment only mitigates spell damage?

oops i guess i was wrong about that shield but if you have a damage shield just put it on before the detonation goes off and you will barely see your health move or just block.

I don't know that things are as broken as you make them out to be huntler, but I do agree there is imbalance. I think it's important to not make things out to sound worse than they are however, as when zos talks to various other guilds you may find people pointing out the flaws in the statements to zos.

Was going to skip dodge rolling as well, but since some have commented on it, there are several powers out there that still work fine against dodge rollers and I've hard very little trouble taking those guys down. It's annoying, less annoying that shadowcloak and bolt escape however, and that's about it. (An alacrity guy we ran with last night even created a build completely focused on dodge rolling with sets and all and was easily taken out last night by the other team after annoying them momentarily)

Anyhow, comparing the ravager set proc to casting a shield and getting the spell power buff isn't an equal comparison. No, it would be like having a set that offers extra damage as you do damage, which is what ravager (and sets like valkyn) do. The biggest fix here would simply be getting rid of caltrops counting as a melee attack and having every dot proc on every person give a chance for the bonus damage and giving pretty much a guarantee of having that extra damage every time you fight. Having ravager proc as often as intended instead of essentially 100% of the time in every fight would level the field where that set is concerned. (And the caltrops fix would quit giving imperials a constant heal from red diamond when not using an actual melee attack). Another fix would obviously be some better set choices for spell builds.

As for the other point, I think you are onto something with passives needing some polishing. But again, not as bad as you make it sound. There are more types of spell pen in the game than armor pen, which may be one reason you see differences in the passives. Maybe spell pen isn't working as well as it should and should be worked on - that might make a decent change right there. Also, the passives that protect you against other types of damage like magical (and poison, elemental, etc) will help against physical damage as well being that they have enchants, dots, poison effects, etc going along with physical damage, meaning there are multiple ways to mitigate physical damage attacks as well.

I think that also the fact that magicka builds have better shields and healing could even things out, but vigor kind of broke that. Used to be stamina was in need of being a bit tankier as their heals were lacking unless they had a healer running around with them. Now with vigor they can heal as well as most magicka builds, combined with having some shields scale off health and not magicka makes some shields stronger than others for stam builds and gives an advantage to having access to certain powers. As much as I've been after a stam heal on my stam builds, I think Vigor (and rally) are a bit too overpowered considering how tanky wearing medium armor can be.

Anyway, this post wasn't aimed at saying you are completely off base or anything. But I think you exaggerated the problem quite a bit and arguments like that are what led to stamina builds being overcompensated for during the fixing process and ending up where they are now. I also think that it can cause some to ignore your argument all together as they focus on the things that don't quite add up in your statement instead of the real problem (much like I probably did here).

xaraan wrote: »

I don't know that things are as broken as you make them out to be huntler, but I do agree there is imbalance. I think it's important to not make things out to sound worse than they are however, as when zos talks to various other guilds you may find people pointing out the flaws in the statements to zos.

Was going to skip dodge rolling as well, but since some have commented on it, there are several powers out there that still work fine against dodge rollers and I've hard very little trouble taking those guys down. It's annoying, less annoying that shadowcloak and bolt escape however, and that's about it. (An alacrity guy we ran with last night even created a build completely focused on dodge rolling with sets and all and was easily taken out last night by the other team after annoying them momentarily)

Anyhow, comparing the ravager set proc to casting a shield and getting the spell power buff isn't an equal comparison. No, it would be like having a set that offers extra damage as you do damage, which is what ravager (and sets like valkyn) do. The biggest fix here would simply be getting rid of caltrops counting as a melee attack and having every dot proc on every person give a chance for the bonus damage and giving pretty much a guarantee of having that extra damage every time you fight. Having ravager proc as often as intended instead of essentially 100% of the time in every fight would level the field where that set is concerned. (And the caltrops fix would quit giving imperials a constant heal from red diamond when not using an actual melee attack). Another fix would obviously be some better set choices for spell builds.

As for the other point, I think you are onto something with passives needing some polishing. But again, not as bad as you make it sound. There are more types of spell pen in the game than armor pen, which may be one reason you see differences in the passives. Maybe spell pen isn't working as well as it should and should be worked on - that might make a decent change right there. Also, the passives that protect you against other types of damage like magical (and poison, elemental, etc) will help against physical damage as well being that they have enchants, dots, poison effects, etc going along with physical damage, meaning there are multiple ways to mitigate physical damage attacks as well.

I think that also the fact that magicka builds have better shields and healing could even things out, but vigor kind of broke that. Used to be stamina was in need of being a bit tankier as their heals were lacking unless they had a healer running around with them. Now with vigor they can heal as well as most magicka builds, combined with having some shields scale off health and not magicka makes some shields stronger than others for stam builds and gives an advantage to having access to certain powers. As much as I've been after a stam heal on my stam builds, I think Vigor (and rally) are a bit too overpowered considering how tanky wearing medium armor can be.

Anyway, this post wasn't aimed at saying you are completely off base or anything. But I think you exaggerated the problem quite a bit and arguments like that are what led to stamina builds being overcompensated for during the fixing process and ending up where they are now. I also think that it can cause some to ignore your argument all together as they focus on the things that don't quite add up in your statement instead of the real problem (much like I probably did here).

Some valid points.

On the dodge roll Keep in mind a team can take out *anyone* no matter the player right now. A good player with the right setup utilizing dodge roll right now is virtually unkillable by 1-2 people though.

The Ravager set obviously needs fixed but the set itself only contributes to the problem not defines it.

The Magicka base passives are just terrible. There is literally nothing to look forward to in the passive trees that synergizes with a caster.

I think the late game (High CP) scaling of shields is far outpaced by other damage and defensive abilities. No defensive ability or mitigation affects shields. Reduced elemental damage doesn't touch shields. Reduced poison, magic etc doesn't touch shield. No change to armor or spell resistance affects shields. the only thing that affects shields scales to 25%, yet with a 15% reduction in cyrodiil shields scale worse than any offensive ability and far worse than any other defensive ability.

I don't think Huntler exaggerated as much as pointed out some exceptional things that are possible with the current meta. Exaggerate to me would mean he would be padding his numbers and facts with things that were not true.

Alexander Powerkill wrote: »

@Ezareth man I agree with you about the Nerf sorc whiners but if your only hitting 6k with CFs then your doing something wrong. On my V3 Sorc I can hit upwards of 6k reg with 10k plus crits. Not saying it needs needed or anything its just a fact it hits hard.

@Alexander Powerkill

To be clear I never said I *hit* for 6K. I said my *tooltip* says 7K and it hits a vamp sorc with base spell resistance for 83% of tooltip. I'm a very specific person when I form an argument an a lot of people on these forums are very loose with facts which generally creates misinformation. Crystal Fragments doesn't do that much damage. When the proc is active however it does *20%* more damage and if you cast a spell like Magelight or Entropy before launching that proc you can boost it by another 20%(of Base) plus add 20% to your spell power. I've had my fragments crit in the neighborhood of 15K before back with the Nirnhoned bug. The problem is certain people see that 15K and then not only are they saying sorcs are running around *hitting* for 15K then some tacks on the crit modifier to that number and suddenly we're at 22K fragging sorcs with unlimited mana, damage shields etc.

So in effect it is possible to severely stack spell power to boost your *base* Crystal fragment which is then increased by another 40% and if that crits some very large numbers are possible. Those numbers are rather difficult to set up and they're not spammable. I'm aware that getting a 20K Crystal fragment is still probably possible against a low SR target, but that same sorc can't spam shields like no tomorrow and has no magicka sustain, hitpoints, defenses etc. There is just too much misinformation so I've tried to keep everything relative.

Ezareth wrote: »

But hey Nerf sorcs right?

@Ezareth Wish my significantly long ranged abilities did 15k+ damage instant cast .

Lionxoft wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

But hey Nerf sorcs right?

@Ezareth Wish my significantly long ranged abilities did 15k+ damage instant cast .

@Lionxoft They do, it's called Lethal arrow and since it is a guaranteed crit from stealth it is not only far more powerful, has a far longer range and has far more possible damage increasing abilities applied to it.

For me to have a 15K Crit I had to have *Nirnhoned* bug (no longer possible) A crystal fragment proc available (so I'm casting other spells and my target is aware of me if he has an ounce of skills) and I have to preface this cast with a Mage's guild spell like Entropy or Magelight. To top all that off, it isn't guaranteed to crit even from stealth and it is an extremely slow moving ability that is easily countered by dodging or reflected etc.

When it comes to abilities that kill me I think Crystal fragments ranks near the bottom. It's usually Lethal Arrow/Focused Aim/Wrecking Block/Meteor (double reflect bug), Crushing Shock, Poweroverload (usually my own), Heavy Destro attacks and Fragments is probably another 4 or 5 abilities down the chain.

There is absolutely nothing about Crystal Fragments that is superior to Lethal arrow.

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

Lionxoft wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

But hey Nerf sorcs right?

@Ezareth Wish my significantly long ranged abilities did 15k+ damage instant cast .

got hit with 20k cf last night and I have 23k sr

execute but still

There is also evidently a bug right now that people are exploiting with CF that I've just been made aware of but it isn't my place to reveal it and I've never used it.