Murder (and subsequent bounty) is an un-immersive joke.

Dahveed · April 2015

I was really stoked when I heard that they would be adding theft and murder with the new justice system. I think the thieving is generally well-done, and the fences in the cities do what they are supposed to.

However I just (accidentally) killed a Pact Soldier... right in front of another Pact Soldier. The other guy did nothing. But when a guard walked by, he runs up to me and demands I pay my "bounty". I give him exactly 126 gold. Then he just turns around and leaves...

So the punishment in Tamriel for cold blooded murder of a faction's soldiers is a slap on the wrist and a pathetic sum of money? 126g is literally nothing. It' s like I'd go to New York, shoot a cop dead in the streets, then pay a fine of fifty dollars cash to the first cop that catches me, then they just walk away and I have a clean slate.

This is just stupid, and I actually preferred it before when it was simply impossible to attack NPCs. This new "feature" feels even less immersive than the old way. I know that for gameplay purposes they can't make the entire world come crashing down on me, but come on. Slaughtering citizens, let alone guards or soldiers, should have DIRE consequences for the player, not just a pathetic amount of pocket change and a scolding.

Valymer · April 2015

Well, you can make it impossible to attack guards through an option in the Game menu.

liammozzb16_ESO · April 2015

Kill three of them and there's no fine the gaurds kill you on sight.

Dahveed · April 2015

Valymer wrote: »

Well, you can make it impossible to attack guards through an option in the Game menu.

Yes but that wasn't really the point I'm trying to make. It's not that I'm worried about accidentally attacking guards or whatever. (Indeed with this ridiculous system, who cares if I do?)

I'm just saying there should be dire consequences if I do... perhaps even prison time, confiscation of my weapon (THAT would be interesting and would make me think twice about getting caught), a much greater fine... some sort of infamy system?

I dunno, they could come up with something. But some crappy insignificant fine just feels totally lazy and boring.

Qyrk · April 2015

Your experiences is valid and feedback to the justice system is definitely valuable. However, this is just the start of the justice system, so it's not fully implemented. All we can do is provide feedback and inform ZOS what works and what doesn't work.

Valymer · April 2015

Dahveed wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

Well, you can make it impossible to attack guards through an option in the Game menu.

Yes but that wasn't really the point I'm trying to make. It's not that I'm worried about accidentally attacking guards or whatever. (Indeed with this ridiculous system, who cares if I do?)

I'm just saying there should be dire consequences if I do... perhaps even prison time, confiscation of my weapon (THAT would be interesting and would make me think twice about getting caught), a much greater fine... some sort of infamy system?

I dunno, they could come up with something. But some crappy insignificant fine just feels totally lazy and boring.

I agree, but what would be an acceptable sentence? 10 RL days game lockout?

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO · April 2015

Dahveed wrote: »

However I just (accidentally) killed a Pact Soldier... right in front of another Pact Soldier. The other guy did nothing. But when a guard walked by, he runs up to me and demands I pay my "bounty". I give him exactly 126 gold. Then he just turns around and leaves...

I wouldn't call killing a Pact soldier an accident. I would say that's a service to AD and DC

It's interesting that if you go to a Provisioning trader, a carrot costs 150 gold. So a carrot is worth more then life

Agobi · April 2015

Dahveed wrote: »

I was really stoked when I heard that they would be adding theft and murder with the new justice system. I think the thieving is generally well-done, and the fences in the cities do what they are supposed to.

However I just (accidentally) killed a Pact Soldier... right in front of another Pact Soldier. The other guy did nothing. But when a guard walked by, he runs up to me and demands I pay my "bounty". I give him exactly 126 gold. Then he just turns around and leaves...

So the punishment in Tamriel for cold blooded murder of a faction's soldiers is a slap on the wrist and a pathetic sum of money? 126g is literally nothing. It' s like I'd go to New York, shoot a cop dead in the streets, then pay a fine of fifty dollars cash to the first cop that catches me, then they just walk away and I have a clean slate.

This is just stupid, and I actually preferred it before when it was simply impossible to attack NPCs. This new "feature" feels even less immersive than the old way. I know that for gameplay purposes they can't make the entire world come crashing down on me, but come on. Slaughtering citizens, let alone guards or soldiers, should have DIRE consequences for the player, not just a pathetic amount of pocket change and a scolding.

Don't forget if you kill someone , log out and start again the next day,your bounty and reputation will be gone,as if nothing ever happpened ;D

Personally I think they missed the mark with this ....again

stewhead2ub17_ESO · April 2015

*facepalm*

Kupoking · April 2015

Well the justice system is at his infancies. Feedbacks will help improve it.

Dahveed · April 2015

Well hopefully more threads like this will pop up.

I had high hopes that ESO would do things drastically differently than most MMOs, which all seem to be clones of eachother.

The justice system can potentially be one-of-a-kind amongst MMOs... but if it's going to be this shallow and inconsequential, then what's the point?

Add some MEAT to the system. Give us an infamy system, higher bounties, true consequences and gameplay challenges involved with murder, betrayal and reprisal. They could even add side quests for criminals, retribution quests, redemption, etc.

I dunno, I'm just an armchair observer here so who knows what kind of system they can come up with, what limitations they face, etc. But the way it is now it's just lazy and pointless, and I have no incentive whatsoever to participate in this aspect of the game, which might as well not even be there.

I hope they indeed work on this. It has a LOT of potential for fun mischief.

Natjur · April 2015

In a world were death is not permanent, sure bounty for murder will be low. The Pact Soldier you murdered was walking around again 5 mins later

Zorrashi · April 2015

I was hoping that the fine for committing murder would be at least 1000+ gold per person killed (so long as it was witnessed, of course) in order to give the mechanic some sort of depth in regard to player choice. As it stands, the Justice System makes it seem like murder is pretty easy to do and get away with for little to no consequence if caught.

I would like a more in depth system with some sort of prison/infamy system or something, but if those things were never implemented I would at least want the fine-based system to seem more punishing for illegal acts.

StaticWax · April 2015

On the other hand, people would cry if the penalty were too stiff . Carebears & such.

But I agree OP. Murder is serious business.

skarvika · April 2015

I think it depends on your level. I got 300g bounty for killing a lowly dock worker. Currently sitting at a near 50k bounty for a 1 hour killing spree. I can't go into any towns anymore. That's punishment enough.

Kublakan · April 2015

I agree with you, murder should mean big punishment.

But, in this case, where is a great risk should be a great reward, an incentive to commit the dark deed, like a contract (isnt it where the dark brotherhood and the Morag Tong should be useful).

And... if the punishment is big, then the devs would have to find a way to make murder happening only when the player is fully commited, and not by accident.

There is certainly plenty of room for more work on the drawing table.

Iceman_mat · April 2015

I had the same thing happen to me whilst hunting. I had a lag spike and accidentally shot a NPC whilst defending a town. I was relived when I could pay a bounty as I had to kill the dude to stop him from attacking me. (the after thought was I could have run away but I only tried to sheath my weapon)

By your argument I should be punished for a lag spike that caused me to hit the npc, for 10 real time days. I don't agree with this sorry. True I would try it if you also added some way to break out / prison system / player interaction possibly but the sole fact is why should I be severely punished for a mistake that the game caused in the first place.

The punishment for first offence is the games equivalent of a verbal warning.

Your argument would be like you showing up 5 minutes late for work and losing your job as well as getting locked up for trespassing and then hit with a lawsuit for damages sustained to the property during your removal.

Stop the hate yo.

-Cheers

Milktray · April 2015

Maybe he didn't like the other soldier ;-)

Arunei · April 2015

On the one hand, we can't have players losing actual days of play, especially not if they're subbed. On the other, it does feel awkward to murder someone and just pay a small bounty afterward. I would suggest making it work like Skyrim's system; you can attempt to break out of your cell if you have lockpicks (and if you succeed you have to then sneak past the guards w/o being caught, or you're put back in jail); failing to pick the lock or not having any lockpicks results in spending an undetermined amount of in-game time spent (it would happen immediately, not in real time like decreasing bounty works), causing some of your Skill experience to be lost. I wouldn't say go as far as to make you be able to lose levels; at the very most, you'd only lose all the experience you'd gained for that level. That way, we get the jail time in-game without actually losing playing time.

People also need to keep in mind that the Justice System is NOT fully implemented. We're only working with a portion of the functionality. So yes, by all means submit feedback about the way the JS can be improved upon, but people complaining about an incomplete system is unproductive and really contributes nothing to said feedback.

Anoteros · April 2015

As amazing as the Justice System sounded it's just another half assed implemented feature.

The fact that there are only 2 types of punishment for committing crime is enough.
Why is there no actual jail time? Not only would it act as another time sink like everything else in this game come end game and give those poor bored v14's something to look forward to as they sit in a cell watching the moss grow.

Surely adding instanced prison cells isn't that hard. They do it for most of the bloody main story quests anyways.

Gidorick · April 2015

What you call "half-assed" many of us call "The initial implantation"....

danovic · April 2015

try not to worry to much about the justice system none of it makes sense anyway. You spend half you cadwells gold killing your own faction to be rewarded by a faction that isn't yours. The game makes no sense at all faction wise. So just try to have fun.

lihentian · April 2015

well. you must be really into roleplay... please do remember that not all of us are that far into roleplay XD

p.s. in some sense i felt like maybe we should give an hardcore option.. where you die you are permanently dead.. like d2 hardcore league~~

silvertip83 · April 2015

Dahveed wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

Well, you can make it impossible to attack guards through an option in the Game menu.

Yes but that wasn't really the point I'm trying to make. It's not that I'm worried about accidentally attacking guards or whatever. (Indeed with this ridiculous system, who cares if I do?)

I'm just saying there should be dire consequences if I do... perhaps even prison time, confiscation of my weapon (THAT would be interesting and would make me think twice about getting caught), a much greater fine... some sort of infamy system?

I dunno, they could come up with something. But some crappy insignificant fine just feels totally lazy and boring.

I think he is on to something here with the prison time. Murder is heinous... so the punishment should be severe. Perhaps for labor at a camp or just spending actual time in prison. Perhaps take a note from Archage on this one?

liammozzb16_ESO · April 2015

Want to make the punishment better? Take a leaf from GTA any crime no matter how small the guards kill first ask questions later.

Yusuf · April 2015

Ehm...... killing somebody results in a 1000-gold penalty...
The penalty for ASSAULT is 120-something, and if you kill the only witness there's nobody to report that murder.

I'd strongly suggest the OP to test something more than once and making sure he has a valid claim before becoming all uppety about it and complain on the forums.

Murder= 1000+ bounty

Dahveed · April 2015

Yusuf wrote: »

Ehm...... killing somebody results in a 1000-gold penalty...
The penalty for ASSAULT is 120-something, and if you kill the only witness there's nobody to report that murder.

I'd strongly suggest the OP to test something more than once and making sure he has a valid claim before becoming all uppety about it and complain on the forums.

Murder= 1000+ bounty

Even if we assume the "best case scenario", i.e., that murder is a 1000g bounty (which it wasn't for me), it's still pretty lazy and silly system as it stands. I can understand it's still in its infancy and testing stage; if this is so, then great, let's get some feedback and suggestions out there to the developers.

If the only reward for committing murder in the game is "mwa ha ha I killed a dude", and the only penalty is "gosh I have to pay a chunk of gold", then as a mechanic it will get stale and almost meaningless after goofing around for a few minutes.

They have a golden opportunity here to add true depth, realism and uniqueness to this game by adding something that NO other game on the market has even remotely even thought of. Imagine the opportunities for quests (Dark Brotherhood, Morag Tong, etc), mischief, role play (fugitive status, prison time, infamy), repentance, hell even a court system? This last part is probably asking too much.

But as it stands now it seems a bit shallow. I'm sorry if this thread comes off as too whiney, but I'm just trying to give my impressions of things as they now stand so they can hopefully improve upon it.

Heishi · April 2015

liammozzb16_ESO wrote: »

Want to make the punishment better? Take a leaf from GTA any crime no matter how small the guards kill first ask questions later.

Except in GTA (older ones anyway) you can kill cops/guards to create a window of time to escape. Sure you can get away pretty easily using skills and such to get away provided you are set up for it. It'd be nice though to just put down one tailing you and then escape. I'd even be fine with double bounty for killing a guard and them being a difficult fight.

Just as a sidenote, I have chars that are upstanding citizens, one doesn't even have the leger skill tree, but some would be glad to kill anything moving without care of laws.

One thing I wish though is that they would change is the aura color of aggressive npcs. No I'm not clicking the little check box, it should be evident who is a protected and non-protected npc.

One time in Greenshade, I came upon two "red aura"s fighting each other, NPCs commonly fight mobs in certain scenes. Both being red, I jumped into it and killed them both, low and behold, I got a bounty.

In another instance, I was in a small town full of enemy wood orcs. I came across one that was fishing and yellow like after you complete some area and the enemies don't attack anymore unless you attack them. Attacked it, bounty.

My favorite and most recent, I was at the arena in Reapers March, you know, where people fight NPCs out in the open to qualify for being in the arena fights. No where near a wayshrine or city with a bank. I come across an NPC attacking a player just sitting there. I figure maybe they got disconnect/crashed/ect and I should help them out. Got a 700 something bounty, I only had 300 on me because I just came from the bank.

I figured if I could make it through the quest since there are like 5 parts to it that pay out. I'd have plenty to pay it off. Before I had the chance, caught by a guard. not enough to pay bounty so I had to run, more bounty. Got killed and decided to keep trying managed to get through a part of the quest, the npc to turn it in to had a guard who stays close by.

Tried to get in while he wasn't looking to turn in the quest, caught me right before completing. Same thing, not enough money, more bounty, dead. Finally figured if I'm going to have to go all the way back to town and pull money out of the bank, might as well make it worth it. So I turned into a werewolf and slaughtered many NPCs.

That kiddies is how a good character gets wrongfully convicted, and starts into a career criminal.

Could I have just killed guards, I would have simply killed the ones who caught me racking up a bit of bounty, then paid up the extra when I went back to the main city instead of just arriving to the arena and having to go back to deal with a bounty I got for trying to be helpful, then comeback.

Know how this could have been avoided? Give them an orange, purple, i don't care what color, aura or something. Then when I come upon ____ color NPC attacking a player, I know "hey, I shouldn't attack it or I'll get a bounty. The person the NPC is attacking probably did something wrong, not just fighting an NPC as a part of the quest"

liammozzb16_ESO · April 2015

I have never tried attacking guards in cities they lol like they would one shot me, I didn't know they instantly spawned back.

Would have been good if you could go in with a few friends and kill the guards and go on a robbing spree.

Heishi · April 2015

liammozzb16_ESO wrote: »

I have never tried attacking guards in cities they lol like they would one shot me, I didn't know they instantly spawned back.

Would have been good if you could go in with a few friends and kill the guards and go on a robbing spree.

I think whole guilds have tried and failed to kill the guards. I've not heard otherwise at least.

michael_bimson · April 2015

Blood money or weregild is an ancient tradition of compensating a victim or their family for a crime (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/weregild) so there is a very real precedent for paying a fine even for murder. Unfortunately, back then and now, life is cheap. Even in this day and age, you accidentally kill someone you will be paying less in compensation than if you accidentally maim someone.

Having established that it is fine to fine a player for killing an NPC, the next question is: Is the fine in ESO enough? Not if its just a hundred or so gold but that may be the fine for an assault when the murder goes unreported and therefore unfined.

In the future there could be ways around this:
1. If you're Morag Tong carrying out a sanctioned assassination in Morrowind, you just need to present your writ to the guard if you are witnessed. Although it is preferred by the Morag Tong that you carry out your justice away from prying eyes.
2. If you're Dark Brotherhood, you can give money to the Brotherhood to bribe officials to remove your bounty.
3. If you're Thieves Guild, you could undergo a penance quest before providing gold to bribe officials.
4. If you're not connected, or you choose to, you could go to a prison instance or labour camp instance and have to escape.