Murder (and subsequent bounty) is an un-immersive joke.

liammozzb16_ESO

michael_bimson wrote: »

Blood money or weregild is an ancient tradition of compensating a victim or their family for a crime (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/weregild) so there is a very real precedent for paying a fine even for murder. Unfortunately, back then and now, life is cheap. Even in this day and age, you accidentally kill someone you will be paying less in compensation than if you accidentally maim someone.

Having established that it is fine to fine a player for killing an NPC, the next question is: Is the fine in ESO enough? Not if its just a hundred or so gold but that may be the fine for an assault when the murder goes unreported and therefore unfined.

In the future there could be ways around this:
1. If you're Morag Tong carrying out a sanctioned assassination in Morrowind, you just need to present your writ to the guard if you are witnessed. Although it is preferred by the Morag Tong that you carry out your justice away from prying eyes.
2. If you're Dark Brotherhood, you can give money to the Brotherhood to bribe officials to remove your bounty.
3. If you're Thieves Guild, you could undergo a penance quest before providing gold to bribe officials.
4. If you're not connected, or you choose to, you could go to a prison instance or labour camp instance and have to escape.

That's a bit overly complicated though.

Keep it simple.

All murders are 1000g

Soon as your bounty is over 1000g you can be attacked by players.

Killing the bounty nets you the amount the bounty was for.

If you are killed by another player you can put a bounty on the player who killed you through the dark brotherhood. Dark brotherhood bounties can't be paid off the only way it can be cleared is by killing the player.

If you get a bounty over 10,000g you automatically go on the brotherhoods bounty and you can't pay it off nor will it go down.

The brotherhood has passives that help you track players who have brotherhood bounties placed on them.

Edit: if you manage to suvive 5 brotherhood attempts your bounty is cleared too and you get to keep it.

Guild members and anyone who's been in your guild in the last 6 months can't claim the bounty nor can anyone who's ever been on your friends list or anyone who's grouped with you in the last 3 days.

lunarul

Yusuf wrote: »

Ehm...... killing somebody results in a 1000-gold penalty...
The penalty for ASSAULT is 120-something, and if you kill the only witness there's nobody to report that murder.

I never managed to get rid of a bounty by killing off the witness. Even if there's no witness, my bounty immediately goes up when I attack someone. They're their own witness. Once I kill them that bounty doesn't go away even though there's nobody left to report the crime. I always find that irritating.

But to add to the discussion, I have no idea how OP managed to get such a low bounty. I get 85g for being seen stealing, over 200g for attacking someone, and somewhere over 800g for killing them (which does total over 1000g with the initial attack + murder; didn't check what a one-shot kill does for my bounty).

Natjur

If you ONE shot a NPC and there is no one around, you will get no bounty.
But if it takes two hits or more hits to kill the NPC, there will be a bounty as the NPC your killing IS the witness, and since the bounty is applied instantly, killing the NPC will not remove the bounty.

I guess they are yelling to the god of Justice who then tells the guards everywhere.

As for the bounty, murder is not classes the same in all locations. Killing in a city = High bounty. Killing on a farm in the middle of no where = Low bounty. No one seems to care about the farmers!

MrGhosty

While I certainly agree that the crimes and punishment don't always match up, this is more of a game design issue than immersion issue. People will not play a game where they could be locked up in a jail for X amount of time and the game would get annoying quickly if they made punishments match the crime.

I would also like to point out that from the start of your game until you stop playing you are essentially just straight up murdering folks and being given shiny stuff for it so I would hardly expect a severe reaction to killing NPCs and Guards.

I would however be all for a system like in previous Elder Scrolls where you could get put in jail and either lockpick or "fast forward" time and have some of your skill level missing but again this is largely a difference between a single player and multiplayer game.

IF we ever get PvP justice system the way it is currently implemented may be more enjoyable but at this point until it actually launches I'm not holding my breath for it to happen. With that said, I enjoy the justice system for what it is and watching new players accidentally mass murder NPCs and then getting chased around by the guards is endlessly entertaining. It's all about the silver linings.

jkemmery

skarvika wrote: »

I think it depends on your level. I got 300g bounty for killing a lowly dock worker. Currently sitting at a near 50k bounty for a 1 hour killing spree. I can't go into any towns anymore. That's punishment enough.

Well hey, it's something to do when you finish the content. See how high your bounty can grow!

What would be cool is "Wanted" posters in the cities and towns of the most notorious player characters.

Nestor

Valymer wrote: »

I agree, but what would be an acceptable sentence? 10 RL days game lockout?

For Murder? At least the amount we accrued in Skyrim or Morrowind, 1000 gold. However, if we get the kill on site bounty, then that death takes our armor down 50% in condition. As it stands now, we get killed, we resurrect, we have minimal damage to our armor, so it's not really a disincentive. Other than the assured death if getting too close to the guards.

Athas24

I enjoy the system. That being said...
There are some things that could use tweaking of course. I don't think murdering my thief who is a completely nonviolent criminal is appropriate just because I stole in front of someone. Murder could use tweaking in cost though since if I steal in front of someone it hits about 700 gold and if I murder someone its much less.
There is also something to be said for murdering all witnesses that could/should be implemented in order to remove fines, but perhaps not notoriety? This could mean that guards attack on sight but depending on the level of notoriety perhaps they hurt you first, then take your bounty, perhaps they just go after the bounty or perhaps the just kill you outright. There could be more options for escape, quests to steal and lots of other good guy/bad guy things. Knowing that the justice system is VERY new and has some obvious work that will be done, it's certainly important to explain what could use modification, give examples of how and let the developers work their magic down the road.

Romo

silvertip83 wrote: »

Dahveed wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

Well, you can make it impossible to attack guards through an option in the Game menu.

Yes but that wasn't really the point I'm trying to make. It's not that I'm worried about accidentally attacking guards or whatever. (Indeed with this ridiculous system, who cares if I do?)

I'm just saying there should be dire consequences if I do... perhaps even prison time, confiscation of my weapon (THAT would be interesting and would make me think twice about getting caught), a much greater fine... some sort of infamy system?

I dunno, they could come up with something. But some crappy insignificant fine just feels totally lazy and boring.

I think he is on to something here with the prison time. Murder is heinous... so the punishment should be severe. Perhaps for labor at a camp or just spending actual time in prison. Perhaps take a note from Archage on this one?

Well maybe leave the fines just the way they are, but add in hard-time.

You get sent to a prison yard, and with a 100 dollar fine you get to break 100 rocks too, just like picking ores.

There are 1,000 rocks in the yard set on 15min timers after they are all broken by you, go on a killing spree, do the time.. hard time and pay the fine.

Dahveed

There could be several options available to the player.

Just a few examples of the top of my head:

1 - "Resist Arrest" a la ES games, fight or flee

2 - "Just serve my time" a la ES games, fast-forward time in prison and be penalised (skill points? gear?)

3 - Actually sitting in prison then trying to break out, this would be really fun for stealth type characters. If you fail of course you're in even more trouble.

4 - I really like the "labour camp" idea. An instanced place in the arse end of nowhere, you physically have to perform labour in order to server your sentence... with perhaps guard patrols which you can sneak past when the opportunity presents itself?

5 - Maybe even a trial? With the witness(es) brought before you? This would perhaps be the most complicated and extensive thing to implement, and probably would never happen in a million years, but who knows?

As it is now, I agree that just racking up a ridiculously high bounty then running into town and getting yourself killed just seems artificial and shallow. Darn, I have 25,000g bounty. I will get myself killed and pay the 350g repair bill instead, tyvm. Shallow.


On a related note, how fun would it be for other players to track me down, kill me, go back to town and actually COLLECT some portion of the bounty that is on my head?

Arthur_Spoonfondle

The developers are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Make the penalties minor and short-lived, players come here complaining of a lack of meaningful consequences. Make the penalties more severe, with longer lasting consequences and other players will come here complaining that the system is too severe. It will be impossible to make everyone happy.

Dahveed

Arthur_Spoonfondle wrote: »

The developers are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Make the penalties minor and short-lived, players come here complaining of a lack of meaningful consequences. Make the penalties more severe, with longer lasting consequences and other players will come here complaining that the system is too severe. It will be impossible to make everyone happy.

I get what you're saying, which is why I think they need to open up the possibilities. If I'm in the "let's just get this over with" camp, then I could just go for the Oblivion/Skyrim option of just clicking on the bed, "I could just serve my time", and get a slap on the wrist (a skill point? gear? gold? I dunno...)

But if I'm more of the "hey this is a cool opportunity for mischief" type person, I could try to lockpick and sneak my way out of prison and feel like I beat the system with my cleverness.

There are ways of doing this, I believe, to please both sides. It just might take a bit of work.

Earthwardzilvox_ESO

If it were harsher, no one would do it. Which would normally be the idea, but in video games, you don't waste resources putting together features that aren't meant to be used.

Obscure

Fines for murder, in general, are silly, be it 120g or 120,000g.

There's a serious lack of weight to the system, and it feels rushed and tacked on as an after thought...which it actually is.

Different laws, different penalties. Simple. You murder someone in an area and get caught? They don't fine you, they strip you, put you in rags and send you to prison, where you wait for execution. Gameplay that has literally been in Elder Scrolls games before is what comes next: escape the cell, find your gear on the way out, and live as a fugitive from THAT AREA IN SPECIFIC, with a bounty that NEVER GOES AWAY and they could even RNG up some NPC bounty hunters that randomly show up trying to collect on you.

It's really not that complicated, and given nearly the entire YEAR since announcement during Quakecon 2014, it's purely unacceptable that NO ONE working on it has enough Elder Scrolls knowledge to just copy and paste that design concept.

Just another lazily half assed "feature" as per the usual "get it done enough and move on" modus operandi of Zenimax Online Studios. At least they're consistent!

Shadesofkin

I shut it off, so I don't have much to add, but from what I constantly hear it sounds like a few minor changes should be considered at the very least.

SHADOW2KK

michael_bimson wrote: »

Blood money or weregild is an ancient tradition of compensating a victim or their family for a crime (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/weregild) so there is a very real precedent for paying a fine even for murder. Unfortunately, back then and now, life is cheap. Even in this day and age, you accidentally kill someone you will be paying less in compensation than if you accidentally maim someone.

Having established that it is fine to fine a player for killing an NPC, the next question is: Is the fine in ESO enough? Not if its just a hundred or so gold but that may be the fine for an assault when the murder goes unreported and therefore unfined.

In the future there could be ways around this:
1. If you're Morag Tong carrying out a sanctioned assassination in Morrowind, you just need to present your writ to the guard if you are witnessed. Although it is preferred by the Morag Tong that you carry out your justice away from prying eyes.
2. If you're Dark Brotherhood, you can give money to the Brotherhood to bribe officials to remove your bounty.
3. If you're Thieves Guild, you could undergo a penance quest before providing gold to bribe officials.
4. If you're not connected, or you choose to, you could go to a prison instance or labour camp instance and have to escape.

Yup like it, very well said.

Also wish the Justice system was similar to the TES games wherein if you kill everyone in the scene of the crime, then bounty is gone, as there is no one left alive to report it.

Completely unrealistic in the current Justice system, although there is loads about it that I personally like, just wish the old style Justice system was in place for now till the PvP element comes into play.

Dre4dwolfb14_ESO

Players should be able to attack you and loot the sum of the bounty until you clear it.

Because you know a justice system that involves ALL the players in the game makes sense.

What good is it to have villains if you can't have heroes because you aren't allowed to pvp.

If you see a player killing a guard, you should be able to attack that player.
If you see a player thieving, you should be able to get the NPCS attention so that the NPC looks at them(alert them).
If you see a player who has just murdered an entire village and has a 5000G bounty (their name should popup red and the bounty should be listed under the clan tag) and if you kill that player you should loot their person/bank/stash of gold on that account for the sum of the bounty.
Doing so should reward you with points (justice points of some kind) that can be redeemed by a quest for randomly generated rewards.

Thats a JUSTICE SYSTEM.
What we have now is not a justice system lol, its a criminal system that lets you have fun stealing.

That being said, you shouldnt be able to kill a player for stealing . . . cause thieving is fun as hell the way it is now , but adding a little challenge to it wouldn't be bad. . . but rewards should go up also.

SHADOW2KK

Dre4dwolfb14_ESO wrote: »

Players should be able to attack you and loot the sum of the bounty until you clear it.

Because you know a justice system that involves ALL the players in the game makes sense.

What good is it to have villains if you can't have heroes because you aren't allowed to pvp.

If you see a player killing a guard, you should be able to attack that player.
If you see a player thieving, you should be able to get the NPCS attention so that the NPC looks at them(alert them).
If you see a player who has just murdered an entire village and has a 5000G bounty (their name should popup red and the bounty should be listed under the clan tag) and if you kill that player you should loot their person/bank/stash of gold on that account for the sum of the bounty.
Doing so should reward you with points (justice points of some kind) that can be redeemed by a quest for randomly generated rewards.

Thats a JUSTICE SYSTEM.
What we have now is not a justice system lol, its a criminal system that lets you have fun stealing.

That being said, you shouldnt be able to kill a player for stealing . . . cause thieving is fun as hell the way it is now , but adding a little challenge to it wouldn't be bad. . . but rewards should go up also.

Defo, would add to the immersion in a bit way IMO, make it way more exciting too.

If you are criminally inclined, then if you don`t like being hunted down and killed, then don`t do the crime hehe.

I can`t wait.

lihentian

in ancient world when there are no telephone and computer.. this is basically what happens when you commit a murder..

SHADOW2KK

lihentian wrote: »

in ancient world when there are no telephone and computer.. this is basically what happens when you commit a murder..

Yup, in ancient times, you were executed if found and brought to justice.

lihentian

Not really, in ancient time you are free to kill low class if you pay the fine or know prople in power. Even if you dont you can to other places and likely no one will ever know

SHADOW2KK

lihentian wrote: »

Not really, in ancient time you are free to kill low class if you pay the fine or know prople in power. Even if you dont you can to other places and likely no one will ever know

True to a certain extent, but even if you were one of the unwashed masses, and killed as you put it, low class people, it still did not go unpunished, pretty sure the person had friends/family who would not think too kindly of the action, and go after revenge.

Still justice

True many were connected and got off with it, or paid fines and got off with it, till in some cases they were waylaid in some dark alley and ganked.

Justice::P

Aevric

You want immersion?
Fine.
If you're spotted killing a guard/soldier/citizen your character is arrested, tried, and executed (with no opportunity to throw anything into your bank)... meaning he/she is deleted from the game and your logon screen.
Unless you're willing to accept those terms, a fine, whether it's 100g or 1,000,000g is just a fine.

lihentian

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

lihentian wrote: »

Not really, in ancient time you are free to kill low class if you pay the fine or know prople in power. Even if you dont you can to other places and likely no one will ever know

True to a certain extent, but even if you were one of the unwashed masses, and killed as you put it, low class people, it still did not go unpunished, pretty sure the person had friends/family who would not think too kindly of the action, and go after revenge.

Still justice

True many were connected and got off with it, or paid fines and got off with it, till in some cases they were waylaid in some dark alley and ganked.

Justice::P

you will be punished in eso, the guard will ask you for the fine, or you could choose to fight the guard. which will increase your fine~~~

as for revenge.. if the npc wouldn't respawn few moment after their death it might make sense... i mean all npc are immortal.. they cannot be slaying unless by another npc..

qsnoopyjr

I agree with the OP, murdering someone just isnt a big deal as it should be in its current state.

Like the OP mentions killing a pact soldier in front of another pact soldier, the other pact soldier should have helped.
In Everquest they have a thing called faction, and if you attacked something of the same faction the other people of that faction would come to the aid of the person getting attacked. The Elder Scrolls should adopt the same thing.

Also, when you steal from NPC and another NPC catches you and says "Guards!".... No guards come, this should signal guards and they should come running. Especially when the NPC says "The guards are coming"..... In current state, aint no guard coming, there should be guards coming.

You should get a 1000 bounty for murder, thats how they do in ever other Elder Scrolls game, 26 bounty from killing someone, lol serious, thats chump change. Especially when people boast they have millions.

Also, I think the guards should be more intense. I like that they have fiery grip. But I would like to see guards slam people on the ground and go HAM on people. I know this game doesnt have any powerbomb chokeslam, clothesline from hell moves, I suggest the only move close that I know of is the draconic leap, where they pounce on you and you knockback to the ground.

I think guards should do less damage, but have crowd control moves, maybe knockbacks and they fight smart where they keep knocking you around away from the refuge. Guards should be able to call for help too, like if you running for over 20 seconds, another guard comes and supports. Same deal, fiery grip ya, and than pounce you draconic leap style. If you can implement chokeslams powerbombs and clothesline from hell, even better.... Also, if you dont have armor or downgraded armor, they 1 shot you to prevent people running around without armor or gimp armor. The amount of armor damage after you die should depend on how they killed you. Like if they *** you chockslam, powerbomb or clothesline style than you take massive amounts of armor damage and I assume at higher levels repairing armor is crazy amounts.

Cuz currently, even if I die from a guard, I'm like, its no biggie at all, not much of a loss. I'm not even really scared of guards too. Guards should be extremely scary when caught with a bounty.

Heck if you got a crazy high bounty, they should call for help and in like 5-10 seconds you got 1-3 more guards pouncing on you. I mean if you got a million bounty.... Guards should want to *** you. You die with a million bounty and suffer minimal losses, serious? Should be that EVERY NPC reports you to guards and guards come if you got a million bounty. Because you figure the regular NPCs want to claim that million bounty. Having a million bounty should make the game scary for you, should also have rewards, when they implement something like a thieves guild.

But serious, a million bounty and you go out of sneak and a regular NPC sees you.. In real life if you saw someone with a million bounty, wouldnt you call the cops... Get that person with a million bounty destroyed by the cops.... And most importantly... Claim that million dollars!!!??

Get the point? Thats why every NPC in the town should report you if they see you, it should be very scary deal.

Another thing, I hate how guards after they chase someone to the refuge that they rush back to wherever they were. They should slowly go back and attack any criminal, people at the refuge with bounties shouldn't just be standing around knowing they wont be attacked and guard will rush back to his roaming area. That guard should go HAM on everyone there, maybe not slowly walking back, but if he sees anyone when rushing back he should go HAM on them.

Thats how it was in Everquest and it was a cool thing to be honest even though when it happened to you it wasnt funny. Talking about people training zone line (shadow refuge in this case) and then the train (massive group of mobs/ guard in this case) will own anything that it sees after the person zoned and is roaming back. Those trains didn't just run back to their roam area and pretend nothing is there like this game does, they attacked everything in its way hence the name train because you had to move your butt or get run over.

But yes, again, there is so much missing, if this is it, this is sad, there is too much potential for better/fun things to implement.

Scheneighnay

When I first made one of my characters, I got a restoration staff from a mudcrab (logic) and tried it out on a random passerby.
Turns out, they don't heal people. But, I did commit murder, get about 130 gold worth of loot off their corpse, snuck past all the guards to the outlaw's refuge (quite a feat since I had no gold and was on the starting island) and made enough money to kick off my crafting career.
My bounty? I was wanted for a whopping 10ish for murder, theft, and evading arrest. Even for a level 2 character, that was nothing.

Dahveed

Aevric wrote: »

You want immersion?
Fine.
If you're spotted killing a guard/soldier/citizen your character is arrested, tried, and executed (with no opportunity to throw anything into your bank)... meaning he/she is deleted from the game and your logon screen.
Unless you're willing to accept those terms, a fine, whether it's 100g or 1,000,000g is just a fine.

Be serious. We all understand the difference between reality and realistic.

We just want more depth to the system. Right now it just feels shallow and inconsequential.

The thieving system seems to be well done overall. I think more could be done, but for a first try it is engaging and fun.

But the murder portion of it feels very bland and shallow. More could be done.

BloodStorm

My bounty is around 200k. Doesn't go away in a day, haha. Also you get serial killer achievement for 50 NPC murders and mass murderer for 100. It has made the game fun in towns while waiting for new content. It does need work but I like that you can RP as a Vampire butcher in towns and become hated, haha. I do like how nobody in town will talk to you if you have a bounty. You have to go to outlaw refuges to do anything. Ya things could use altering but definitely going in the right direction. Oh and when you become really hated every city is KoS across factions and zones. So you really do feel like a most wanted.

ProfessorKittyhawk

Killing someone should make you KOS regardless of how many people you kill, and should have a higher bounty as a result. A simple assault should be less and only result in a smaller bounty, where as actually killing someone will make you a target for the guards, meaning you either have to hide out sonewhere, be it the wilderness or a refuge, until your bounty deteriorates completely, or go to a refuge and pay your bounty.

badbeansnub18_ESO

Punishment is a joke. Murder needs dire consequences. It should take work to earn off murder and not simply a small fine or logging off for the night. The justice system was just released and it already needs an overhaul.

Wolfshead

Well i still wait for open world pvp the justice system would bring to table where other player could hunt you down if did anything illegal and i still wait for Dark brotherhood and the Thief guild that justice system would bring with it.

Thing is that are rumour that goes around say that both justice system and CP system that was gave to us is just half of content and that ZoS did so the would have DLC to add later into game for me personal i think that justice system we have today is one big blunder honest it dont feel like you are a criminal if just take do thing and just wait around for next guard that comes around you can pay your way out of it.