The answer to Shield Stacking is here

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · April 2015

After much thought and considerations on the subject a clear and simple solution has arrived players can't stack buffs or debuffs they are all Major thing and Minor that.

Now what if powers that cast damage shields as a primary function i.e. Healing Ward, Annulment, Harden Ward, Bone Shield and Sunshield and so on constitute a major shield or Major Barrier and powers that create damage shields as a byproduct i.e. Brawler, Shield Assault, weapon enchants and synergies like Bone Shield grant minor barrier.

Sorcerers don't have to have Harden Ward nerfed all shields would behave and guard the same way they do know only. Just as you can't stack a bar of buff then drink a power pot and two shot people. Walking into a fight with three shields is ridiculous and is clearly causing discontent among the player base.

Rising the base cost and/or adding diminishing returns would cause more hatred and backlash. This is the easiest and most balanced move you can make furthermore it's the most logical next step forward Majors and Minor already apply to all of the buffs why not to a shield?

Panda244 · April 2015

Shield stacking is a problem?

Fix Stamina burst. Fix shield stacking. Problem solved.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · April 2015

Panda244 wrote: »

Shield stacking is a problem?
Fix Stamina burst. Fix shield stacking. Problem solved.

You can't really call it burst when the only people that complain about that burst have 30k+ magic little health and full light there are many heavy armor magic sets even just a heavy chest would show a big difference but if your whole build is stacking shield to live then players will use the only skill to kill a shield and that's damage a Major and Minor buff is everywhere that stats are effected excepting for shields

olsborg · April 2015

OP, good idea, I back it up with the full power of my subscription

Now, happy easter to everyone.

Tankqull · April 2015

sure but cap all physical attacks dmg(including crits) at 30% of the attackers health as well.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · April 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

sure but cap all physical attacks dmg(including crits) at 30% of the attackers health as well.

You are absolutely correct as well it should vs all light Im not saying run full heavy back how much do you loss with a heavy chest and legs the two biggest and most bit pieces of armor this a War going to battle with as little armor as possible should get you killed.

It happens to stamina builds everyday we can use annulment on any bar but at higher cost and less protection

Need a restoration staff for healing Ward and bone shield only stop physical attacks much like annulment only stops magical attacks

WRX · April 2015

The idea has been brought up, but its simply not needed.

Light armor needs to shield stack to stay alive.

My opinion is, if you are having to constantly stack shields, then you are constancy losing 2-3 casts that you could be doing damage to others or helping your allies. This seems like a fair trade.

Seems to me like people don't have enough survivabilty, DPS, and sustainability to fight good players. Builds and use are the problem, not shields.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · April 2015

What you are failing to address however is high sustainability means you can't burst through a 9K damage shield and high DPS mean that if you can't drop them to execute range then you die shield don't take crit damage just base killing entire builds from the start.

Now add to that the fact the more magic ups your spell damage, regen, and shield strength you have offense of an defense of all in one resource so yes loss 2-3 cast but you grant pure immunity from 9K damage from a cheap damage shield and that's just Harning Ward

If it was a simple L2P problem amidst the raging Nerf Nerf Nerf post then I could see your point but it's a common sense fix to a clear oversight

Panda244 · April 2015

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

What you are failing to address however is high sustainability means you can't burst through a 9K damage shield and high DPS mean that if you can't drop them to execute range then you die shield don't take crit damage just base killing entire builds from the start.

Now add to that the fact the more magic ups your spell damage, regen, and shield strength you have offense of an defense of all in one resource so yes loss 2-3 cast but you grant pure immunity from 9K damage from a cheap damage shield and that's just Harning Ward

If it was a simple L2P problem amidst the raging Nerf Nerf Nerf post then I could see your point but it's a common sense fix to a clear oversight

It's not an oversight.

Magicka builds don't have burst, they have sustain, and can survive via shield stacking.

Stamina builds have burst and not a whole lot of sustain, and can survive. (If you spec into the roll dodge continuum)

All builds have counters, shield stacking builds are easily countered by a stun, followed by stamina burst. Dead shield stacker.

Stamina builds that roll dodge continuously are countered by abilities that "lock" on target and go through block, such as curse, and magicka detonation.

Problem solved.

For my DK, I've found the middle ground, I don't have much burst damage, burst damage can't kill me, and shield stacking isn't a problem for me to get through.

"Fix" shield-stacking and you BREAK Sorcerers.
"Fix" Burst and you BREAK stamina.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

Rune_Relic · April 2015

Seems reasonable to me
Whole point of major/minor was to prevent power stacking and enable duration stacking instead.
I have no issue with the duration stacking....except for the additional server load.
I think it would be better to simply give them a cooldown before they can be replenished.
That way they don't have to waste cpu cycles being stacked & tracked....help the diabolical lag.

Soulac · April 2015

Panda244 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

What you are failing to address however is high sustainability means you can't burst through a 9K damage shield and high DPS mean that if you can't drop them to execute range then you die shield don't take crit damage just base killing entire builds from the start.

Now add to that the fact the more magic ups your spell damage, regen, and shield strength you have offense of an defense of all in one resource so yes loss 2-3 cast but you grant pure immunity from 9K damage from a cheap damage shield and that's just Harning Ward

If it was a simple L2P problem amidst the raging Nerf Nerf Nerf post then I could see your point but it's a common sense fix to a clear oversight

It's not an oversight.

Magicka builds don't have burst, they have sustain, and can survive via shield stacking.

Stamina builds have burst and not a whole lot of sustain, and can survive. (If you spec into the roll dodge continuum)

All builds have counters, shield stacking builds are easily countered by a stun, followed by stamina burst. Dead shield stacker.

Stamina builds that roll dodge continuously are countered by abilities that "lock" on target and go through block, such as curse, and magicka detonation.

Problem solved.

For my DK, I've found the middle ground, I don't have much burst damage, burst damage can't kill me, and shield stacking isn't a problem for me to get through.

"Fix" shield-stacking and you BREAK Sorcerers.
"Fix" Burst and you BREAK stamina.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

Magicka builds don´t have burst? Magicka NB and Sorcs do, not sure about Templar and DK.

Panda244 · April 2015

Soulac wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

What you are failing to address however is high sustainability means you can't burst through a 9K damage shield and high DPS mean that if you can't drop them to execute range then you die shield don't take crit damage just base killing entire builds from the start.

Now add to that the fact the more magic ups your spell damage, regen, and shield strength you have offense of an defense of all in one resource so yes loss 2-3 cast but you grant pure immunity from 9K damage from a cheap damage shield and that's just Harning Ward

If it was a simple L2P problem amidst the raging Nerf Nerf Nerf post then I could see your point but it's a common sense fix to a clear oversight

It's not an oversight.

Magicka builds don't have burst, they have sustain, and can survive via shield stacking.

Stamina builds have burst and not a whole lot of sustain, and can survive. (If you spec into the roll dodge continuum)

All builds have counters, shield stacking builds are easily countered by a stun, followed by stamina burst. Dead shield stacker.

Stamina builds that roll dodge continuously are countered by abilities that "lock" on target and go through block, such as curse, and magicka detonation.

Problem solved.

For my DK, I've found the middle ground, I don't have much burst damage, burst damage can't kill me, and shield stacking isn't a problem for me to get through.

"Fix" shield-stacking and you BREAK Sorcerers.
"Fix" Burst and you BREAK stamina.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

Magicka builds don´t have burst? Magicka NB and Sorcs do, not sure about Templar and DK.

Sorcs have to time their burst, Magicka NBs do indeed have a burst but it suffered recently in the last patch, DKs and Temps have hard hitting executes, that's about it.

Oughash · April 2015

Soulac wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

What you are failing to address however is high sustainability means you can't burst through a 9K damage shield and high DPS mean that if you can't drop them to execute range then you die shield don't take crit damage just base killing entire builds from the start.

Now add to that the fact the more magic ups your spell damage, regen, and shield strength you have offense of an defense of all in one resource so yes loss 2-3 cast but you grant pure immunity from 9K damage from a cheap damage shield and that's just Harning Ward

If it was a simple L2P problem amidst the raging Nerf Nerf Nerf post then I could see your point but it's a common sense fix to a clear oversight

It's not an oversight.

Magicka builds don't have burst, they have sustain, and can survive via shield stacking.

Stamina builds have burst and not a whole lot of sustain, and can survive. (If you spec into the roll dodge continuum)

It's more of a L2P issue than anything, all builds have counters, shield stacking builds are easily countered by a stun, followed by stamina burst. Dead shield stacker.

Stamina builds that roll dodge continuously are countered by abilities that "lock" on target and go through block, such as curse, and magicka detonation.

Problem solved.

Those that complain about Shield-Stacking are Stamina builds with low burst and high sustain.

Those that complain about burst are idiots that can't shield-stack and have low health.

For my DK, I've found the middle ground, I don't have much burst damage, burst damage can't kill me, and shield stacking isn't a problem for me to get through.

I legitimately hate using the phrase L2P, but this "issue" as you people are calling it, isn't an issue.

"Fix" shield-stacking and you BREAK Sorcerers.
"Fix" Burst and you BREAK stamina.

L2P

Magicka builds don´t have burst? Magicka NB and Sorcs do, not sure about Templar and DK.

The only magicka burst for DK comes from non class skills, e.g. detonation plus meteor (I guess dragon leap, too).

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · April 2015

I in fact have burst getting a sorc or any shield stacker is no problem the problem is even with Killers blade Healing Ward stops it cause that shield gets bigger with low health and annulment eats my STAMINA costing Killers Blade cause it's off of Stamina and Weapon power but does spell damage

I have to go through all three shields to execute with my class execute even with 7 medium armor, gold cost reductions on my jewelry and 41 points in Warlord (Stamina Cost Reductions) I don't less my systane 30% Nightblade stamina Regen plus 10% from vamp green VR10 drinks for stamina highest stamina regen drinks and four Night's Silence I don't run out of stamina much

As an added fact Nightblades have one single target lock down and yea I use it but it only works one time with a 1.2 second cast time they always block the second one it cost no thing to block Agony so it's only an opener... Maybe the DK ground targeted one has better lock but not a single target lock down.

Hell with all ultimates bring magic damage with shields up they eat that too

iseko · April 2015

Here is my solutiin to the shield stacking "problem". Stop QQ'ing and l2p

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · April 2015

No one needs your trolling while Archers were raining arrows Sorcs complained till a weapon that was already 10% weaker then other stamina weapon got Nerf another 10% with strength of one shield alone plus the low cost and the fact that you have every incentive to put everything you have into Magic makes it very imbalanced

Samadhi · April 2015

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

After much thought and considerations on the subject a clear and simple solution has arrived players can't stack buffs or debuffs they are all Major thing and Minor that.

Now what if powers that cast damage shields as a primary function i.e. Healing Ward, Annulment, Harden Ward, Bone Shield and Sunshield and so on constitute a major shield or Major Barrier and powers that create damage shields as a byproduct i.e. Brawler, Shield Assault, weapon enchants and synergies like Bone Shield grant minor barrier.
...

Would this also standardize all shield values in the same manner that buffs all have standardized values currently?
Major wards set at 30% of Health and Minor wards set at 10% of Health sort of thing?

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · April 2015

They can keep the save value and scaling that they have currently but one up at a time no nerfs to shield strength

The ability to cast a 9K damage shield on top of a 4 to 5K magic shield plus a general damage shield that heals on cast and gets stronger with the lower health you have.

Have just two shields up is like having 14k extra health with no cast time (not calling for one, that would be far too impractical) that's a lot of burst needed canon level power and/or strong DoTs are needed just to keep them near execute range.

Damage shield will SHIELD you from damage dodge rolling don't shield you from AoEs, ground effects, daetric curse, Mage's wrath, radiant destruction or any other channeled effects you dodge projectile and single targets Melee damage nothing else

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · April 2015

Samadhi wrote: »

Would this also standardize all shield values in the same manner that buffs all have standardized values currently?
Major wards set at 30% of Health and Minor wards set at 10% of Health sort of thing?

Although it's not a bad idea

technohic · April 2015

Samadhi wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

After much thought and considerations on the subject a clear and simple solution has arrived players can't stack buffs or debuffs they are all Major thing and Minor that.

Now what if powers that cast damage shields as a primary function i.e. Healing Ward, Annulment, Harden Ward, Bone Shield and Sunshield and so on constitute a major shield or Major Barrier and powers that create damage shields as a byproduct i.e. Brawler, Shield Assault, weapon enchants and synergies like Bone Shield grant minor barrier.
...

Would this also standardize all shield values in the same manner that buffs all have standardized values currently?
Major wards set at 30% of Health and Minor wards set at 10% of Health sort of thing?

That would be as stupid as it could get. You mean an ultimate like barrier would be no more than 1 good hit and the others would wind up being just a heavy attack away from burstin .

Sounds like there are bow whiners in here that feel they have been nerfed. You better go ask around cause there are plenty that still can kill even medium or heavy armor players from stealth before they even can figure out where they are at and shields just buy you not even a hit. If you are magicka burst of some kind that no longer works, welcome to the everyone club who had to re-evaluate their builds after 1.6.

stonescorsa · April 2015

Im a sorc and i even say get rid of sheild stacking. I use hardened ward only to survive and iv never had a problem against all kinds of builds.

Sheild stackers are lame and just stack because they cant fight without having 100% sheilds over there health.

I would like a change to only one sheild can be used at one time but they can replenish the sheild as and when needed.

I kill many players a day with only the use of hardened ward and only 1.2k spell damage.

Its not a place for L2P i think to many sorcs rely on sheild stacking because they dont like change and dont want to change there builds. So there simple solution is sheild stack.

Also sorcs arent the only ones who can sheild stack all classes have 2 wards they can use just your option to run light armour or a resto staff

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · April 2015

I'm one of those Acher that will gank you and sometimes send your horse down with you not like you ride full speed with shields up.

I'm talking about the mace and shield I run on my off hand for Melee and dragon knights with their wings up its just shields on shields at max range you stand no chance at best I can't get back into stealth and your friends run me into the ground.

This is not a ganking post as shield play no part in ganking this is a mid siege/at a resource or getting pushed back where whole Attacks get eaten by a shield the more shields caster stack and more damage we need to stack the less survivability we have the more we gank if your grand solution is to have higher burst where do you think that higher person going to be put to best use and upfront battle are in an attack from stealth not helping your argument by saying just do more damage

Tal_72 · April 2015

Shield stacking isn't the underlying problem. Tuning needs to be done so that a player doesn't instantly die without shields, whether this be done via buffed health pools or reduced damage in PVP (or some other mechanic). Tuning needs to be done to keep VR1 and VR14 with many CPs somewhat closer (or you need a below X amount of CP campaign). Then you can nerf shields.

frozywozy · April 2015

Shield stacking is not a problem. The root of the problem is that anyone can stack shields without sacrificing anything other than a couple slots on their weapon bars. Every shield ability itself should be weak from the start but we should be able to increase the strength of all shields by spending champion points or gear bonus.

Just like dodge rolling should be on a totally different ressource bar and we should be able to reduce the cost of dodge rolling by spending champion points or gear bonus aswell.

technohic · April 2015

Like I said; good stamina builds specifically have no problem getting through shields. Most sorcs are not traveling around with shields up all the time but once they are in a fight, yeah; they do. But then for each shield cast, they are not casting an attack or a heal.

Your key give away is their buddies coming to get you. Where are your buddies? Maybe a single player should not expect to insta gib a target that is among allies? You basically are wanting the game tailored to how you chose to play

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · April 2015

Tal_72 wrote: »

Shield stacking isn't the underlying problem. Tuning needs to be done so that a player doesn't instantly die without shields, whether this be done via buffed health pools or reduced damage in PVP (or some other mechanic). Tuning needs to be done to keep VR1 and VR14 with many CPs somewhat closer (or you need a below X amount of CP campaign). Then you can nerf shields.

I completely agree with you to a point. I know many sorcerers who wear a heavy chest and heavy legs and they say it works out great they barely lose any stats so it's not as if survivability is Undoable or at a high cost you still get five pieces bonus plus the champion system and I'm sure sorcs do not really need 30K plus magic put something to health it helps and do a lot better in a fight even without shields having to be up wanting to have pure magic fully light and then say you 15k worth the shield that are cheap to recast is having your cake and eating it

Edit: Siri sucks sometimes

eliisra · April 2015

stonescorsa wrote: »

Im a sorc and i even say get rid of sheild stacking. I use hardened ward only to survive and iv never had a problem against all kinds of builds.

Sheild stackers are lame and just stack because they cant fight without having 100% sheilds over there health.

That's very easy to say when you have the best class shield in the game. Frankly I wouldn't mind removing multiple shields either, if I only played my sorc. My sorcerers Ward is almost 16k, it easily eats a full Wrecking Blow. I could pump it even higher if I wanted to.

In comparisons, my magicka templars Sun Shield is only 7k with the shortest shield duration in the game. It's gone is a freaking light attack these days. Same for DK, although it lasts 24 seconds, so you can use it pro-actively. If I want them to even reach 10k I have to go full health build and loose any form of dps or healing. Than there's my NB having no class shield what so ever, desperately juggling Healing Ward + Harness Magicka to stay up.

My point is, I find it funny how people think this would penalize sorcerers so much. They're ironically the only class in the game that doesn't need to stack shields in 5+ light armor.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · April 2015

I recognize that this would affect Templars and Dragon Knights but with powerful class heals you can go without having as big of a shield whereas sorcerers and Nightblades don't have that kind of option using HoTs to heal
Being a Nightblade with a Shadow Mage I can say definitively that I can survive with my class HoTs and Healing Ward just fine.

Side note the time on blazing sealed is ridiculous

cozmon3c_ESO · April 2015

before i got into 1.6 i assumed shields would follow the Major and Minor Buff system. i was happy at first that they didnt but i look at the way i play right now and i can honestly say that i dont need shield stacking nearly at all. i reapply shield after every hit i take and when im low i just spam healing ward until i can bolt away. the only time i shield stack is to cover my healing ward with a hardened ward to protect the heal so i get full healing from healing ward.

i would actually be just fine and continue doing what im doing if they turned shields into major and minor buffs with no hit to what im doing, so ill have to spam healing ward 2 times instead of covering it with a hardened ward, no big deal.

Armitas · April 2015

Are barrier and dragon leap excluded from the system?

I would like to see shield stacking go as well. I have in the past advocated something similar to this, the difference being barrier is major, while igneous shield and hardened ward are minor, and smaller shields like brawler, and glyphs are excluded. That was back on pts though, the more I play 1.6 the more I think differently of it.

I like the ability to fine tune my shield. My shield is based on health so when I move the slider toward more defense the offense slider moves backwards, as it should. I can customize my build to match my needs in a balanced way. Hardened ward is the opposite of that, when you move the defense slider up, the offense slider moves up with it. That doesn't seem balanced to me.

Hardened ward is really the core of the complaint about shields. Because the shield strength shares the same dps resource people are able to reach 16k shields. Stacking above that takes things to even more absurd levels, but outside of hardened ward it's far less absurd. My igneous shield, with over 40 in bastion and between 29k-31k health is around 9.5k. That puts my magicka at 18k+, I'm paying for that defense with the loss of offense as it should be. There is nothing unbalanced about that, 9k won't even cover a wrecking blow, a snipe, or a crystal fragment.

But if shields get incorporated into the major and minor system, they should not contain flat values. Flat values will completely ruin any ability to fine tune your offense and defense.

eventide03b14a_ESO · April 2015

eliisra wrote: »

stonescorsa wrote: »

Im a sorc and i even say get rid of sheild stacking. I use hardened ward only to survive and iv never had a problem against all kinds of builds.

Sheild stackers are lame and just stack because they cant fight without having 100% sheilds over there health.

That's very easy to say when you have the best class shield in the game. Frankly I wouldn't mind removing multiple shields either, if I only played my sorc. My sorcerers Ward is almost 16k, it easily eats a full Wrecking Blow. I could pump it even higher if I wanted to.

In comparisons, my magicka templars Sun Shield is only 7k with the shortest shield duration in the game. It's gone is a freaking light attack these days. Same for DK, although it lasts 24 seconds, so you can use it pro-actively. If I want them to even reach 10k I have to go full health build and loose any form of dps or healing. Than there's my NB having no class shield what so ever, desperately juggling Healing Ward + Harness Magicka to stay up.

My point is, I find it funny how people think this would penalize sorcerers so much. They're ironically the only class in the game that doesn't need to stack shields in 5+ light armor.

That might be true, but templars have the best burst heal. You want an equally good ward but also keep your heals? Sorcerers have the worst class heals in the game.

Maybe wards shouldn't stack, but what about things like annulment that only protect against spell damage?