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Get rid of shield stacking, block casting, animation cancel and so on.

Forestd16b14_ESO
Forestd16b14_ESO
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There had been countless post about getting rid of these thing. From block casting to shield stacking, animation cancel to straight up glitches. ZoS did say that they left these thing in on purpose to increase utility or something like that but alot of us made it clear that we don't want these mechanics I know I don't block casting in the game cause it makes the role of tank a joke cause it means any one with a shield and heals can be one. So lets just see what the number have to say about these "utilities" and see if ZoS will finally do something about them.
Edited by Forestd16b14_ESO on April 2, 2015 2:59PM

Get rid of shield stacking, block casting, animation cancel and so on. 177 votes

Yes ( get rid of them )
40%
Pirhana7_ESOGilvothObscuredeathmasterl_ESOGorthaxSaetPKMN12Spectre45curlyqloub14_ESOForestd16b14_ESOgimpdrb14_ESOThatNeonZebraAgainTabkeyNazon_KattsGigasaxBugCollectorZigoSiddraeganb16_ESOinfraction2008b16_ESOmorf87 72 votes
No ( let them stay )
59%
IcyDeadPeoplecozmon3c_ESOAttorneyatlawlThe_Drexillebo_bootsniffer_ESOIagoFat_Cat45Koopak9mouseEarthwardzilvox_ESOSpidermonkWolfaenjoshisanonymousTeargrantseventide03b14a_ESOagabahmeatshieldb14_ESObigscoothb14_ESOParadoxPsychobunnidesciviib14_ESO 105 votes
  • Gorthax
    Gorthax
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    Yes ( get rid of them )
    I voted yes on everything else but I do not agree with shield stacking. Without shield stacking sorcs would die a horrible death every single time. Block casting NEEDS to go, but animation canceling is here to stay thanks to ZoS saying it is part of the game now.
  • amasuriel
    amasuriel
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    I loath the fact the animation canceling is now a "feature". In a game where the excuse for the poor UI is immersion, how bad is it that do do actual DPS we have to clip attack animations short?
  • daemonios
    daemonios
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    No ( let them stay )
    Nope. They are intended mechanics, with proper uses and known counteracting tactics.
  • s7732425ub17_ESO
    s7732425ub17_ESO
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    No ( let them stay )
    Block casting is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT in PVE. Try to do Sanctum or any difficult Vet Dungeon without block casting. With the changes to stamina costs, it's now fine in PVP too. It's very easy to whittle away an opponent's stamina leaving them unable to block.

    Animation cancel is also very important in PVE. If done correctly, it adds 3-5k DPS, and this is very important when doing the more difficult content. Lower DPS prolongs boss battles which means a much higher chance of people messing up and the group wiping.

    Shield stacking is eh. I would like to see it removed.
  • Armitas
    Armitas
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    People are shield stacking out of necessity of 1.6 light armor changes. Shield stacking is a "thing" again because they screwed with too many things at once while breaking light armor. If they fix light armor we will likely see shield stacking go away again on its own.

    I have not heard a single word about what they are going to do to balance out 1.6. It would be nice to hear something as the TTL is ridiculous right now even with the -15% damage nerf.
    Edited by Armitas on April 2, 2015 3:42PM
    Retired.
    Nord mDK
  • Lionxoft
    Lionxoft
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    Gorthax wrote: »
    I voted yes on everything else but I do not agree with shield stacking. Without shield stacking sorcs would die a horrible death every single time. Block casting NEEDS to go, but animation canceling is here to stay thanks to ZoS saying it is part of the game now.

    Shield stacking does need to go but just removing it won't solve the problem yet it would just create a new one like you mentioned. Shield stacking allows for alternate benefit shields (Healing ward and previously harness) to not lose strength however they would still provide benefit.

    Take away shield stacking but adjust either shield strength and/or damage in Cyrodiil. To be completely honest the damage in Cyrodiil is pretty outrageous. Shield stacking should have never even made it through beta.
  • Gix
    Gix
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    Yes ( get rid of them )
    I don't have a problem with it, but I'd like them removed primarily for the same reasons @amasuriel mentioned.

    @s7732425ub17_ESO - Design your content with the (theoretical) changes in mind.
  • technohic
    technohic
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    No ( let them stay )
    I don't even know how anyone keeps block casting these days. If they do, the really need to spec for it so I don't care.

    Animation cancelling is what it is. Most of my abilities do not really benefit much on it since they are so slow as a templar but the ship has sailed.

    Shield stacking, I more think they just need to work differently so damage is not mitigated as much but at the same time, I think the 15% Cyrodiil nerf needs to go at the very least to keep them still viable when doing that and any toning down needs to come with toning down of some ridiculous damage stacking.


    So while we are at the common focuses of nerf calls and seemingly trying to be all inclusive; I question motives when perma- dodge rolling and spammable soft CC with no immunity is not as equally brought up or more so.
  • RunAway
    RunAway
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    Yes ( get rid of them )
    Animation cancelling is only a feature because they have no idea how to fix it. This is proven by them saying they were looking into fixing it, then it suddenly became a feature...
  • Merlin13KAGL
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    This should help:

    Shield stacking removed would simply get countered with higher value shields - your complaint would change, the effect would be the same. Heavy and Medium armor shouldn't provide 1:1 spell resist. It is what it is.

    Animation cancelling, it's already been indicated they're not removing it. It's simply not worth the programming effort, nor the unintended consequences that would result.

    Block casting: Instant casts are the only things that can be block cast, everything else will cancel the cast.

    Full Definition of INSTANT

    1: an infinitesimal space of time; especially : a point in time separating two states

    Something + something that takes zero time + something takes the same time as both somethings without the thing in the middle. Not sure why this is hard to grasp.

    By the way, it takes stamina for everything... No stamina, no action. Hit someone while blocking and they lose stamina...see the progression? Blocking also slows your movement - if you're letting someone stand there and block cast, it's you that is missing the opportunity.

    Since you are making statements using 'We' quite a bit, I will include one as well:

    The instant we realized there was a search feature on the forums, we decided not to duplicate yet another post.
    Edited by Merlin13KAGL on April 2, 2015 3:48PM
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.

    IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.
    I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
    Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS
  • Saltypretzels
    Saltypretzels
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    No ( let them stay )
    All of these things may have been unintended initially, but they are great in adding more depth to the combat, take practice to master. I am all for it. Seperates skilled from unskilled players. Maybe the issue is that they need to be adopted by ZOS more officially so that everyone is aware of their existence. Maybe a tutorial popup on each one.
  • Mystikkal
    Mystikkal
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    No ( let them stay )
    Why are you doing a poll of 3 completely separate things? The only one I agree should be removed is block casting.
  • Obscure
    Obscure
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    Yes ( get rid of them )
    I say block casting and animation canceling only need to go because they conflict with the core design philosophy of visual feedback cuing the player of what is happening to justify having a "minimal" UI of which is incomplete and inferior rather than any reasonable breed of minimalist. When I animation cancel and block cast I'm literally being forced to look at health bars to determine effect, since my on screen avatar is just jerking around like he's having a seizure while I do so.

    Fact is the instant console players see this they will bug report it, and we'll have the "its an exploit!" vs "No it's not!" argument all over again for months until the people who truly hate it just give up and leave. Keep in mind The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt (May 19th release date) will still be fresh in the minds of Fantasy RPG console players at the launch of console ESO on June 9th. The amount of venom these forums have right now is a bright shiny kindergarten class room compared to the deluge of unhinged rage the console mainstreamers will unleash...

    ZOS needs to do something about it, I just don't know if they can do something about it. I warned them before PC launch, and I'm warning them again: You don't want this in your game.
  • Merlin13KAGL
    Merlin13KAGL
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    @Obscure , you may be the first one ever to give that reasoning - essentially (as the character) not knowing (without third party add-on / health bar monitoring) if they're doing it right. (Meaning, if it's working or not - not implying skill or lack thereof)

    This may be the single most valid reason I've ever heard for not wanting animation cancelling.
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.

    IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.
    I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
    Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS
  • Beesting
    Beesting
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    No ( let them stay )
    Leave it in or scale down the end game content, there is no way i can do enough dps without it. That said, it takes a lot of practice, i often cancel the skill, not just the animation.

    It is just the way it is, deal with it please

    If's and but's are filling my mind but the reality is, this is de eso we got....
    Beesting, Bosmer Magica DK, AD EU, crafter
    Slager, Dunmer Magica DK, DC EU, pvp
    Farmer, Dunmer Magica DK, AD EU, trials build

    Every major patch looks like the end of the world but somehow i just cannot stop playing.
  • Forestd16b14_ESO
    Forestd16b14_ESO
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    Yes ( get rid of them )
    Just wanna say any one who NEEDS block casting to PVE is clearly doing something wrong. I PvE just fine with out block casting. Yes block casting sounded like a good idea when they were making ESO but in action it's a broken mechanic that players clearly abuse to either speed run through delves and trials or more know for being a pain in the arse in PvP. Yes every one wants to be top on the leaderboard for trials but kinda hard to beat the top group when the players zip through it block casting fire rings bats radient destruction ect ect. Pretty sure trials where meant to done fast but through team work and planning as the were designed to be done not by abusing a broken mechanic to fly through it.
  • eliisra
    eliisra
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    No ( let them stay )
    Nope, because you get 1 shot in VDSA if you have to drop block every time you use a skill. What should you do if taunt runs out while the boss or other nasty stuff is doing special attack, for example? Block or dodge to avoid getting 1 shot sure, but than you loose aggro and the dps or healer dies.

    This isn't WoW where you have Boss Mods telling you exactly what's going to happen every single second. I repeat, you get 1 shoot if you dont block certain stuff even as tank, yet it's always crucial to keep casting skills for group survival.

    It's always biased people running around derping with glass house stamina gank builds in PvP, that's asking for this. They want more instagib, point at stuff from 50 meters range and watch it die. But players that participates in all kinds of content, plays all roles and builds, usually knows better. We dont have any defensive mechanics in game yet that can replace block cast and dmg mitigating shields.

    As far as animation cancelling goes in PvP, bad performance usually prevents it. But for sure, class- and weapon skills aren't balanced based on how well they cancel, that is a problem.

    Besides what does "and so on" mean in the discussion title lol? I'm just going to assume it stands for "everything that prevents me from killing someone instantly".
  • Obscure
    Obscure
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    Yes ( get rid of them )
    @Obscure , you may be the first one ever to give that reasoning - essentially (as the character) not knowing (without third party add-on / health bar monitoring) if they're doing it right. (Meaning, if it's working or not - not implying skill or lack thereof)

    This may be the single most valid reason I've ever heard for not wanting animation cancelling.

    It's one of maybe only a few truly objective reasons it's not good for the design. It can work, and the game can be balanced around it, but if combat is meant to have a feel of "weightiness" and keep the player focused on the on screen actors it's impossible to reconcile how an attack hits a target when it's never actually animated on screen. How does one know they were hit, and how does one know they did the hitting, if the only indication of that was cancelled? The only answer is to rely on the UI which is in direct conflict with UI minimalism. It's a case of two things that don't mix, like oil and water.

    Game design is a greater than the sum of any of its individual parts, a gestalt practice, and if any one part doesn't sync with other parts it becomes remarkably more noticeable. It's as if I were looking at spinning rims, mudding tires, and a variable hydraulic lift kit on a Ferrari. Just makes me say "what the ***? That's just not right.".
  • AlnilamE
    AlnilamE
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    No ( let them stay )
    These things are not alike and should not be in the same poll. Therefore I vote NO.
    The Moot Councillor
  • LucyferLightbringer
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    Yes ( get rid of them )
    It needs to go, making us use glitches as features is just sad and pathetic.
  • Cuyler
    Cuyler
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    No ( let them stay )
    I've learned how to counter all of these things so it's not a big deal to me. In addition I don't even want to speculate how boring and slow combat would be.
    Guild: STACK n BURN (gm) PC - NA
    CP 810 18 Maxed Characters:
    "How hard can u guar?" - Rafishul[/spoiler]
  • Majic
    Majic
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    Yes ( get rid of them )
    Worse Than Such-And-Such
    Get rid of shield stacking, block casting, animation cancel and so on.
    I voted "Yes" because we need to get rid of the "and so on", which is making a mess of ESO.

    Let me be perfectly clear: "And So On" is ruining the game, and it's got to go!



    Epopt Of The Everspinning Logo, Church Of The Eternal Loading Screen
    And verily, verily, spaketh the Lord: "Error <<1>>"
  • Eekshnerf
    Eekshnerf
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    Yes ( get rid of them )
    I don't understand how anyone could think animation canceling is ok. It literally makes no sense for a player to have to hit block between each attack, with his attacks never actually connecting to the target. If it was like... feinting or something, I don't know, and it was a legitimate mechanic, that would make sense. But even the name "animation cancel" just sounds like a bunch of glitchy crap. I think it adds zero depth to the combat. It would be more skillful to pull off combos with a global cool down that it is to just mash all your buttons and cancel everything.
  • Cuyler
    Cuyler
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    No ( let them stay )
    Eekshnerf wrote: »
    I don't understand how anyone could think animation canceling is ok. It literally makes no sense for a player to have to hit block between each attack, with his attacks never actually connecting to the target. If it was like... feinting or something, I don't know, and it was a legitimate mechanic, that would make sense. But even the name "animation cancel" just sounds like a bunch of glitchy crap. I think it adds zero depth to the combat. It would be more skillful to pull off combos with a global cool down that it is to just mash all your buttons and cancel everything.

    I don't use block to cancel animations. I simply use a light or med attack in between skills. This could be called "attack weaving". Now when done this way it adds more depth to combat, makes it faster and more "legitimate". I think too many ppl get caught up the "canceling" thing. When I weave base attacks in between skills it feels more natural in combat than waiting 1.5 seconds to place any attack. Cooldowns would make combat feel slower than it already does.

    Also in terms of skill, it's debatable what is more difficult. IMO attack weaving takes a bit of skill, more so than waiting for the next cooldown. Most complain about it because they can't do it effectively.
    Guild: STACK n BURN (gm) PC - NA
    CP 810 18 Maxed Characters:
    "How hard can u guar?" - Rafishul[/spoiler]
  • grimsfield
    grimsfield
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    No ( let them stay )
    Block casting is a necessity for PVE. If block casting is removed, we really need AOE taunts. People would be getting wiped all over the place without block casting. As it is, I don't think you can block while casting channeled abilities, and I really wish that was changed.

  • Orchish
    Orchish
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    It is so easy to run down the majority of players stamina in 1.6 i really don't think block casting is an issue anymore.
  • Borders
    Borders
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    No ( let them stay )
    Former DCUO player so I consider these par for the course in any action based MMO.
  • idk
    idk
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    No ( let them stay )
    as OP said, Zos has acknowledged leaving these in the game on purpose. These are all techniques easily learned by any players leaving all of us on the same level.

    With that there is absolutly no reason to want them removed.

    Please nerf the ability to create polls.
  • Eekshnerf
    Eekshnerf
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    Yes ( get rid of them )
    Cuyler wrote: »
    Eekshnerf wrote: »
    I don't understand how anyone could think animation canceling is ok. It literally makes no sense for a player to have to hit block between each attack, with his attacks never actually connecting to the target. If it was like... feinting or something, I don't know, and it was a legitimate mechanic, that would make sense. But even the name "animation cancel" just sounds like a bunch of glitchy crap. I think it adds zero depth to the combat. It would be more skillful to pull off combos with a global cool down that it is to just mash all your buttons and cancel everything.

    I don't use block to cancel animations. I simply use a light or med attack in between skills. This could be called "attack weaving". Now when done this way it adds more depth to combat, makes it faster and more "legitimate". I think too many ppl get caught up the "canceling" thing. When I weave base attacks in between skills it feels more natural in combat than waiting 1.5 seconds to place any attack. Cooldowns would make combat feel slower than it already does.

    Also in terms of skill, it's debatable what is more difficult. IMO attack weaving takes a bit of skill, more so than waiting for the next cooldown. Most complain about it because they can't do it effectively.

    Ok, so I understand the weaving attacks in it. Got it. Makes sense and I can see where that would take more skill to time it. However, I'm wondering how you could possibly say "slower than it already does." I've seen people complaining about combat being slow in this game and I'm absolutely baffled. Have you ever seen someone swing a sword in real life? Have you done it yourself? In PvP it's already possible to get melted in under two seconds by 6 skills. If combat gets any faster, it will basically just be a bunch of people vaporizing each other.
  • Nestor
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    OK, I have a dumb question, does Shield Stacking mean I just cast Hardened Ward a couple of times, or is it some other mechanic?
    Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.

    PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
    Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"

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