Get rid of shield stacking, block casting, animation cancel and so on.

technohic

No ( let them stay )

Nestor wrote: »

OK, I have a dumb question, does Shield Stacking mean I just cast Hardened Ward a couple of times, or is it some other mechanic?

They mean cast hardened ward along with maybe harness magicka and or something else. Like healing ward.

Cathrin

I don't PVP often, so I don't know the effects of animation cancelling in there. I do it in PVE, since it gives me a nice DPS boost that I sadly need to be competitive. ATM in PVE a sorc is only good for DPS and even there it is not the best class.

In PVP that might be different, I cannot say that, but the current system is just not working for both areas. Every nerf that is good for balaning PVP is a slap in the face for PVE and vice versa, you could call the sorc class imba: Good in PVP, mediocre in PVE.

btw. I do not use any shields except for thundering presence. Again that stacking is more of a PVP issue, I believe.

I will not vote, since there are only two options that don't fit me.

Nestor

technohic wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

OK, I have a dumb question, does Shield Stacking mean I just cast Hardened Ward a couple of times, or is it some other mechanic?

They mean cast hardened ward along with maybe harness magicka and or something else. Like healing ward.

So they are giving up two skill slots for this? OK.

idk

No ( let them stay )

Nestor wrote: »

OK, I have a dumb question, does Shield Stacking mean I just cast Hardened Ward a couple of times, or is it some other mechanic?

Shield stacking is putting more than one shield skill at a time. Think different shield skills at the same time.

Attorneyatlawl

No ( let them stay )

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

There had been countless post about getting rid of these thing. From block casting to shield stacking, animation cancel to straight up glitches. ZoS did say that they left these thing in on purpose to increase utility or something like that but alot of us made it clear that we don't want these mechanics I know I don't block casting in the game cause it makes the role of tank a joke cause it means any one with a shield and heals can be one. So lets just see what the number have to say about these "utilities" and see if ZoS will finally do something about them.

So in other words, the core combat mechanics are too complex for your liking and need to be dumber down for everyone as a result? None of what you're saying is correct here, not even your explanation of ZOS comments on attack weaving. Anyone can equip a shield, sure, but if they aren't built with it in mind much or at all they will run right on out of stamina if you know what you're doing, and are themselves snares + limited to instant spells as a result while holding down that block key. QUICK HINT OF USEFULNESS: blocking drains stamina based on how many hits are made against it. Try using high hit count or multi hit count skills and light attacks to drain the enemy's stamina more quickly.

Jules

No ( let them stay )

Eekshnerf wrote: »

I don't understand how anyone could think animation canceling is ok. It literally makes no sense for a player to have to hit block between each attack, with his attacks never actually connecting to the target. If it was like... feinting or something, I don't know, and it was a legitimate mechanic, that would make sense. But even the name "animation cancel" just sounds like a bunch of glitchy crap. I think it adds zero depth to the combat. It would be more skillful to pull off combos with a global cool down that it is to just mash all your buttons and cancel everything.

Yeah there's no block. It's a light or medium attack cut off by the skill. The skill itself makes contact.

Attorneyatlawl

No ( let them stay )

Nestor wrote: »

OK, I have a dumb question, does Shield Stacking mean I just cast Hardened Ward a couple of times, or is it some other mechanic?

They are just talking about casting different skills while one is already active. It's nothing special and since shields don't take your mitigation into account when they are being damaged by an enemy, it's extremely fast to get rid of them.

Eekshnerf wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

Eekshnerf wrote: »

I don't understand how anyone could think animation canceling is ok. It literally makes no sense for a player to have to hit block between each attack, with his attacks never actually connecting to the target. If it was like... feinting or something, I don't know, and it was a legitimate mechanic, that would make sense. But even the name "animation cancel" just sounds like a bunch of glitchy crap. I think it adds zero depth to the combat. It would be more skillful to pull off combos with a global cool down that it is to just mash all your buttons and cancel everything.

I don't use block to cancel animations. I simply use a light or med attack in between skills. This could be called "attack weaving". Now when done this way it adds more depth to combat, makes it faster and more "legitimate". I think too many ppl get caught up the "canceling" thing. When I weave base attacks in between skills it feels more natural in combat than waiting 1.5 seconds to place any attack. Cooldowns would make combat feel slower than it already does.

Also in terms of skill, it's debatable what is more difficult. IMO attack weaving takes a bit of skill, more so than waiting for the next cooldown. Most complain about it because they can't do it effectively.

Ok, so I understand the weaving attacks in it. Got it. Makes sense and I can see where that would take more skill to time it. However, I'm wondering how you could possibly say "slower than it already does." I've seen people complaining about combat being slow in this game and I'm absolutely baffled. Have you ever seen someone swing a sword in real life? Have you done it yourself? In PvP it's already possible to get melted in under two seconds by 6 skills. If combat gets any faster, it will basically just be a bunch of people vaporizing each other.

Combat between skilled opponents in ESO is actually fairly slow paced, typically. It's only general people running around thinking having all attacks on their bar and no real defensive skills while rarely ever blocking (or blocking everything and running out of stamina immediately instead of only blocking big attacks) that die in seconds. Even in 1vX or 2vX a skilled player (or two) can last a minute or more, sometimes downing the enemies. In 1v1 or 2v2 encounters in Cyrodiil they can even just end in an outright stalemate if both players are good and similarly skilled. When your run into your average enemy running in or to a zerg, though, they just melt like butter in a frying pan.

Want to see what I'm talking about as far as stalemates or just longer fights? Here's an eight minute one from beta, which would happen similarly today. In normal circumstances enemies just will back off and part ways when a fight goes that long though as they could be hunting down others for rewards in that kind of timespan .

https://youtu.be/lMuP8UdChrw?t=453

Start watching at about 7.5 minutes in.

Jules

No ( let them stay )

grimsfield wrote: »

Block casting is a necessity for PVE. If block casting is removed, we really need AOE taunts. People would be getting wiped all over the place without block casting. As it is, I don't think you can block while casting channeled abilities, and I really wish that was changed.

Agreed- for trash in trials and whatnot it's essential. You take too much heat in LA & and end up dead without blocking. However, obviously you can't just stand and block and expect things to die.

morf87

Yes ( get rid of them )

All need to be redone from my point of view, all these were not how they originally designed combat to work, its just down to poorly thought out combat mechanics.
Animation cancelling rewards players who use macros, this isn't mortal combat where hitting keys at a super fast rate should reward you, granted reaction times and hitting the right keys at the right time is important but animation cancelling takes it to a new level and is a complete joke, same for block casting tho partly down to the lack of combat info we have it will make it tougher for players in dungeons but that is where teamwork, better players and learning dungeons and such take over, ppl want easy mode...
I find it hard to understand how players can defend animation cancelling and block casting, being a skilled player shouldn't mean who can setup the best macro, who can spam keys the fastest, who can hold block and spam skills the best or who has the best gaming mouse to assign more keys to, that being said sadly i don't see it ever changing which will likely mean ESO doesn't cater to players who want skilled combat.

Attorneyatlawl

No ( let them stay )

morf87 wrote: »

All need to be redone from my point of view, all these were not how they originally designed combat to work, its just down to poorly thought out combat mechanics.
Animation cancelling rewards players who use macros, this isn't mortal combat where hitting keys at a super fast rate should reward you, granted reaction times and hitting the right keys at the right time is important but animation cancelling takes it to a new level and is a complete joke, same for block casting tho partly down to the lack of combat info we have it will make it tougher for players in dungeons but that is where teamwork, better players and learning dungeons and such take over, ppl want easy mode...
I find it hard to understand how players can defend animation cancelling and block casting, being a skilled player shouldn't mean who can setup the best macro, who can spam keys the fastest, who can hold block and spam skills the best or who has the best gaming mouse to assign more keys to, that being said sadly i don't see it ever changing which will likely mean ESO doesn't cater to players who want skilled combat.

That's a great post, but it has little to do with reality. Have you ever actually played Marvel vs Capcom 2 or actual mortal kombat games even? You don't need macros in ESO and they'd actually be very detrimental to skilled players to try using. There is no miraculously tight timing needed in ESO for the vast majority of moves, and blocking while being able to use instant skills (not casting) is a core part of the combat system here, adding depth when used properly and situationally. My APM rate for ESO is a small fraction of what a good starcraft player uses, for example, and is not too demanding in terms of input rate aka what you claim is "a super fast rate".

Eekshnerf

Yes ( get rid of them )

Jules wrote: »

Eekshnerf wrote: »

I don't understand how anyone could think animation canceling is ok. It literally makes no sense for a player to have to hit block between each attack, with his attacks never actually connecting to the target. If it was like... feinting or something, I don't know, and it was a legitimate mechanic, that would make sense. But even the name "animation cancel" just sounds like a bunch of glitchy crap. I think it adds zero depth to the combat. It would be more skillful to pull off combos with a global cool down that it is to just mash all your buttons and cancel everything.

Yeah there's no block. It's a light or medium attack cut off by the skill. The skill itself makes contact.

There is a block because block is what's used to cancel the skills. So attacks are canceled by skills, skills are canceled by blocks. You can also use block to rapid fire any of your attacks. Its particularly noticeable with bows, allowing you to light attack about twice as fast if you time it right.

Psychobunni

No ( let them stay )

I would have voted yes if it were in "PVP only"

My full on healer often block casts when a run away mob comes to nab her in group settings, IMO these functions are necessary for PVE side unless you are super perfect*, min/max, can do it all easy player. I admittedly am not.

Eekshnerf

Yes ( get rid of them )

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

OK, I have a dumb question, does Shield Stacking mean I just cast Hardened Ward a couple of times, or is it some other mechanic?

They are just talking about casting different skills while one is already active. It's nothing special and since shields don't take your mitigation into account when they are being damaged by an enemy, it's extremely fast to get rid of them.

Eekshnerf wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

Eekshnerf wrote: »

I don't understand how anyone could think animation canceling is ok. It literally makes no sense for a player to have to hit block between each attack, with his attacks never actually connecting to the target. If it was like... feinting or something, I don't know, and it was a legitimate mechanic, that would make sense. But even the name "animation cancel" just sounds like a bunch of glitchy crap. I think it adds zero depth to the combat. It would be more skillful to pull off combos with a global cool down that it is to just mash all your buttons and cancel everything.

I don't use block to cancel animations. I simply use a light or med attack in between skills. This could be called "attack weaving". Now when done this way it adds more depth to combat, makes it faster and more "legitimate". I think too many ppl get caught up the "canceling" thing. When I weave base attacks in between skills it feels more natural in combat than waiting 1.5 seconds to place any attack. Cooldowns would make combat feel slower than it already does.

Also in terms of skill, it's debatable what is more difficult. IMO attack weaving takes a bit of skill, more so than waiting for the next cooldown. Most complain about it because they can't do it effectively.

Ok, so I understand the weaving attacks in it. Got it. Makes sense and I can see where that would take more skill to time it. However, I'm wondering how you could possibly say "slower than it already does." I've seen people complaining about combat being slow in this game and I'm absolutely baffled. Have you ever seen someone swing a sword in real life? Have you done it yourself? In PvP it's already possible to get melted in under two seconds by 6 skills. If combat gets any faster, it will basically just be a bunch of people vaporizing each other.

Combat between skilled opponents in ESO is actually fairly slow paced, typically. It's only general people running around thinking having all attacks on their bar and no real defensive skills while rarely ever blocking (or blocking everything and running out of stamina immediately instead of only blocking big attacks) that die in seconds. Even in 1vX or 2vX a skilled player (or two) can last a minute or more, sometimes downing the enemies. In 1v1 or 2v2 encounters in Cyrodiil they can even just end in an outright stalemate if both players are good and similarly skilled. When your run into your average enemy running in or to a zerg, though, they just melt like butter in a frying pan.

Want to see what I'm talking about as far as stalemates or just longer fights? Here's an eight minute one from beta, which would happen similarly today. In normal circumstances enemies just will back off and part ways when a fight goes that long though as they could be hunting down others for rewards in that kind of timespan .

https://youtu.be/lMuP8UdChrw?t=453

Start watching at about 7.5 minutes in.

So I watched enough if it to get the idea... What's the issue? The is the speed combat should be at. However, this is as slow as it gets. If all combat were to be faster, so would these fights. And if that's what you want, sure, that's your prerogative I guess, not wanting long satisfying 1v1. But you also have to think that if those sped up, so does everything else, and the zergs become lawnmowers.

Cody

Yes ( get rid of them )

get rid of shield stacking AFTER all these insane damage numbers get toned down.

block casting.... meh. its not so bad now. Blocks are much easier to drop now, so I am willing to live with it.(not to mention the 105K hits in the trials dont sound lovely. lol)

animation canceling is a must, it needs to stay in.

Jules

No ( let them stay )

Eekshnerf wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Eekshnerf wrote: »

I don't understand how anyone could think animation canceling is ok. It literally makes no sense for a player to have to hit block between each attack, with his attacks never actually connecting to the target. If it was like... feinting or something, I don't know, and it was a legitimate mechanic, that would make sense. But even the name "animation cancel" just sounds like a bunch of glitchy crap. I think it adds zero depth to the combat. It would be more skillful to pull off combos with a global cool down that it is to just mash all your buttons and cancel everything.

Yeah there's no block. It's a light or medium attack cut off by the skill. The skill itself makes contact.

There is a block because block is what's used to cancel the skills. So attacks are canceled by skills, skills are canceled by blocks. You can also use block to rapid fire any of your attacks. Its particularly noticeable with bows, allowing you to light attack about twice as fast if you time it right.

Perhaps with other weapons or other players, idk. I personally run Destro and never ever have a need to block cancel my skills; I merely weave them amongst lights or mediums. I also don't have channel abilities though, mine are all instant.

Cody

Yes ( get rid of them )

and using gltiches as a way to get thru vet content is sad and needs to be removed. I have played with fully specced VR14s that wanted to use a glitch/bug to kill the bosses. Its pathetic, and why I take no one seriously when they say "vet dungeons are easy" because there is a small chance they gltiched/bugged thru it and did not actually do it.

Attorneyatlawl

No ( let them stay )

Eekshnerf wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

OK, I have a dumb question, does Shield Stacking mean I just cast Hardened Ward a couple of times, or is it some other mechanic?

They are just talking about casting different skills while one is already active. It's nothing special and since shields don't take your mitigation into account when they are being damaged by an enemy, it's extremely fast to get rid of them.

Eekshnerf wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

Eekshnerf wrote: »

I don't understand how anyone could think animation canceling is ok. It literally makes no sense for a player to have to hit block between each attack, with his attacks never actually connecting to the target. If it was like... feinting or something, I don't know, and it was a legitimate mechanic, that would make sense. But even the name "animation cancel" just sounds like a bunch of glitchy crap. I think it adds zero depth to the combat. It would be more skillful to pull off combos with a global cool down that it is to just mash all your buttons and cancel everything.

I don't use block to cancel animations. I simply use a light or med attack in between skills. This could be called "attack weaving". Now when done this way it adds more depth to combat, makes it faster and more "legitimate". I think too many ppl get caught up the "canceling" thing. When I weave base attacks in between skills it feels more natural in combat than waiting 1.5 seconds to place any attack. Cooldowns would make combat feel slower than it already does.

Also in terms of skill, it's debatable what is more difficult. IMO attack weaving takes a bit of skill, more so than waiting for the next cooldown. Most complain about it because they can't do it effectively.

Ok, so I understand the weaving attacks in it. Got it. Makes sense and I can see where that would take more skill to time it. However, I'm wondering how you could possibly say "slower than it already does." I've seen people complaining about combat being slow in this game and I'm absolutely baffled. Have you ever seen someone swing a sword in real life? Have you done it yourself? In PvP it's already possible to get melted in under two seconds by 6 skills. If combat gets any faster, it will basically just be a bunch of people vaporizing each other.

Combat between skilled opponents in ESO is actually fairly slow paced, typically. It's only general people running around thinking having all attacks on their bar and no real defensive skills while rarely ever blocking (or blocking everything and running out of stamina immediately instead of only blocking big attacks) that die in seconds. Even in 1vX or 2vX a skilled player (or two) can last a minute or more, sometimes downing the enemies. In 1v1 or 2v2 encounters in Cyrodiil they can even just end in an outright stalemate if both players are good and similarly skilled. When your run into your average enemy running in or to a zerg, though, they just melt like butter in a frying pan.

Want to see what I'm talking about as far as stalemates or just longer fights? Here's an eight minute one from beta, which would happen similarly today. In normal circumstances enemies just will back off and part ways when a fight goes that long though as they could be hunting down others for rewards in that kind of timespan .

https://youtu.be/lMuP8UdChrw?t=453

Start watching at about 7.5 minutes in.

So I watched enough if it to get the idea... What's the issue? The is the speed combat should be at. However, this is as slow as it gets. If all combat were to be faster, so would these fights. And if that's what you want, sure, that's your prerogative I guess, not wanting long satisfying 1v1. But you also have to think that if those sped up, so does everything else, and the zergs become lawnmowers.

Problem? I have none at all with it... I like the slower combat! I thought that you were saying you didn't.

Athas24

No ( let them stay )

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

This should help:

Shield stacking removed would simply get countered with higher value shields - your complaint would change, the effect would be the same. Heavy and Medium armor shouldn't provide 1:1 spell resist. It is what it is.

Animation cancelling, it's already been indicated they're not removing it. It's simply not worth the programming effort, nor the unintended consequences that would result.

Block casting: Instant casts are the only things that can be block cast, everything else will cancel the cast.

Full Definition of INSTANT

1: an infinitesimal space of time; especially : a point in time separating two states

Something + something that takes zero time + something takes the same time as both somethings without the thing in the middle. Not sure why this is hard to grasp.

By the way, it takes stamina for everything... No stamina, no action. Hit someone while blocking and they lose stamina...see the progression? Blocking also slows your movement - if you're letting someone stand there and block cast, it's you that is missing the opportunity.

Since you are making statements using 'We' quite a bit, I will include one as well:

The instant we realized there was a search feature on the forums, we decided not to duplicate yet another post.

^^ I love all of this

Panda244

No ( let them stay )

Animation Canceling is an intended mechanic said so by ZOS.

Shield-Stacking is a thing because the game is broken in it's current state and damage in Cyrodiil is out of control.

Block-casting...? Is a problem? It was a problem? Every blocking opponent I've ever fought I've killed or my group has killed. This is a L2P issue, and it will screw with Trials if you have to drop block to heal yourself.


All in all, is this post for real?

olsborg

Shieldstacking, yes get rid of it.

olsborg

Nestor wrote: »

OK, I have a dumb question, does Shield Stacking mean I just cast Hardened Ward a couple of times, or is it some other mechanic?

Shieldstacking is when you cast your class shield and an armor shield or healing ward etc...stacking 3 shields ontop of eachother, its dumb.

Attorneyatlawl

No ( let them stay )

Cody wrote: »

and using gltiches as a way to get thru vet content is sad and needs to be removed. I have played with fully specced VR14s that wanted to use a glitch/bug to kill the bosses. Its pathetic, and why I take no one seriously when they say "vet dungeons are easy" because there is a small chance they gltiched/bugged thru it and did not actually do it.

Uh, none of the things listed in the OP are bugs or glitches. They're working as intended at this point.

Aneima

I'm Ron Burgundy?

Malmai

Yes ( get rid of them )

Panda244 wrote: »

Animation Canceling is an intended mechanic said so by ZOS.

Shield-Stacking is a thing because the game is broken in it's current state and damage in Cyrodiil is out of control.

Block-casting...? Is a problem? It was a problem? Every blocking opponent I've ever fought I've killed or my group has killed. This is a L2P issue, and it will screw with Trials if you have to drop block to heal yourself.


All in all, is this post for real?

Block casting / Animation Canceling is not intended it's badly coded and soon enough game will be called Elder Scripters Online, just matter of time...

daemonios

No ( let them stay )

Malmai wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Animation Canceling is an intended mechanic said so by ZOS.

Shield-Stacking is a thing because the game is broken in it's current state and damage in Cyrodiil is out of control.

Block-casting...? Is a problem? It was a problem? Every blocking opponent I've ever fought I've killed or my group has killed. This is a L2P issue, and it will screw with Trials if you have to drop block to heal yourself.


All in all, is this post for real?

Block casting / Animation Canceling is not intended it's badly coded and soon enough game will be called Elder Scripters Online, just matter of time...

It IS intended (as stated by ZOS). Stop spreading misinformation. You may not agree, but it's in the game and it's intended.

Also, a macro would be of little help. A macro cannot react in real time to changing conditions. It's not that hard to spell-weave without them.

darthbelanb14_ESO

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

There had been countless post about getting rid of these thing.

So why start another one?

Earthwardzilvox_ESO

No ( let them stay )

Whining about shield stacking is as stupid as whining about having multiple restorative effects on you (say a HoT and a potion). Animation cancel is fine as well. Instant spells should be instant, even if they have an animation. If you can't animation cancel, they aren't instant spells.

Block casting is stupid, but the reason it's there is because of LAG. If you're lagging, and you have to cancel your block to cast a spell, you might end up vulnerable for three times as long as intended. Hell, I think archers should have to actually aim their bow. But if that were the case, lag would stop archers from hitting anyone in dungeons or cyrodiil. So we're stuck with auto target.

Actual glitches should be removed, though, obviously.

Emma_Overload

No ( let them stay )

Eekshnerf wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Eekshnerf wrote: »

I don't understand how anyone could think animation canceling is ok. It literally makes no sense for a player to have to hit block between each attack, with his attacks never actually connecting to the target. If it was like... feinting or something, I don't know, and it was a legitimate mechanic, that would make sense. But even the name "animation cancel" just sounds like a bunch of glitchy crap. I think it adds zero depth to the combat. It would be more skillful to pull off combos with a global cool down that it is to just mash all your buttons and cancel everything.

Yeah there's no block. It's a light or medium attack cut off by the skill. The skill itself makes contact.

There is a block because block is what's used to cancel the skills. So attacks are canceled by skills, skills are canceled by blocks. You can also use block to rapid fire any of your attacks. Its particularly noticeable with bows, allowing you to light attack about twice as fast if you time it right.

I don't believe you. Every Light Attack I've ever tried in this game has some kind of cooldown, some of them are shorter after 1.6, but 2H weapons seem to hover around 1100 ms. 1H weapons might have a shorter cooldown of around 900 ms, it's been a while since I've test any. I've tried blocking, interrupting, weapons swapping, every trick in the book... but nothing can be done to defeat this cooldown. And NO, macros will not help you unless you are a 90 year old with palsy and arthritis. If you know otherwise, please tell the rest of us how to do it!

Tabkey

Yes ( get rid of them )

I've got the perfect idea! Remove combat altogether! Instead, we sit around a firepit seeing who can make the best mead!

RSram

Yes ( get rid of them )

Yes, just get rid of Animation canceling.

1) Shield stacking is OK with me as long as the stacking doesn't buff the same attribute; for example, having three shields up, one for melee, one for spell, and one for armor damage is fine, but having three shields for just one type of damage is too much buff IMO.

2) Block casting is OK. It's a required mechanic of the game.

3) Animation cancelling I don't agree with, I understand it's benefits, but almost all skills and weapon abilities should some type of wind up and then follow through motion. This would telegraph the intent of the defense or attack, and slow down the combat in PVP and PVE; players with slow reflexes will still die as they currently do. Note that all of the PVE NPC's have wind up motions to telegraph their attacks.