ESO Live 27/3 What do you think about ZOS vision on PvP?

Tandor · March 2015

I agree with ZOS, Cyrodiil should be a priority and they shouldn't develop any other PvP content.

Seraphyel wrote: »

Romo wrote: »

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

It's not that ZoS wants to 'separate' the pvp community (because there are pvp guilds that wouldn't allow that) its because they are to busy focusing only on updates for pve

I see this comment all the time from various PvPers. And it is time to stop it.

The PvP updates are constant...

So there are your CONSTANT Pvp updates, balance and nerfing, maybe if you(generic Pvpers) quit those whines, you might get different updates?

Excuse me, but there haven't been any PvP updates yet. Every patch ESO got was PvE centered.

Balancing is not even worth mentioning as a PvP update, it's balancing.

It's balancing for the sole purpose of PvP, because the PvPers asked for it. They keep getting the stuff they've asked for, but all they do in return is complain that nothing is ever done for them.

Seraphyel · March 2015

I disagree with ZOS, we should be able to have choices and different PvP modes, just like there are a lot of ways to Pve.

Balancing because of AvA doesn't make an update an PvP update at all.

Something like a new battleground, arenas, duels or something like that would make it PvP centered or maybe a revamp of the current PvP system.

golfer.dub17_ESO · March 2015

I'll explain a different opinion on this post

Not only there are no plans, but it seems ZOS vision on PvP is not to "separate the PvP community" by creating any PvP content outside Cyrodiil.

Kind of an odd statement considering when I'm actually in Cyrodiil I could be solo questing, or exploring, or dueling, rather than being one with the zerg. Not everyone who is in Cyrodiil is actually partaking in AvA.

Dueling seems like a cool idea but on the other hand it serves no real benefit besides testing your build and entertainment value. Well people are better off testing their build and being entertained on the battle field actually participating so dueling is just a pointless distraction.

"No benefit except entertainment value."

Isn't that like, the entire point of a game? Lol.

But seriously, "participating in the battlefield" is usually just "rush that group of five with our group of twenty, then spam siege weapons, then flee from that group of thirty with our group of twenty, then repeat". The only time builds really come into play is small-scale 1v1 or 1vX fights.

Anyways, I don't feel a duel system is entirely necessary. Just form a guild for the purpose and meet people at specific locations. Yes it takes forever to cross Cyrodiil, but that's just as much a problem for dueling as it is for AvA, and that's what they really need to start fixing.

Sad that they entirely removed forward camps from the game instead of reworking them, and that rapid maneuver isn't really worth a skill slot.

Off-topic, wow, for once someone managed to make a forum poll that was actually decent and not trying to bias the results.

yiunko · March 2015

I disagree with ZOS, we should be able to have choices and different PvP modes, just like there are a lot of ways to Pve.

The thing is, the game is in a bottle neck in terms of pvp. Probably the lead director got stuck on his head that Cyrodiil idea is amazing and that it must work at all costs and is forcing all the player base to love Cyrodiil. Is always sad to see great games being stuck and dragged down by such a poor design and stubborn decisions. How many post of the community complaining about the lack of PvP content and options does ZOS needs to react?

Is bad that they dont have anything coming outside Imperial city which is another Cyrodiil extension, but they basically said they have no intention at all to create PvP content outside Cyrodiil, I mean dueling, a simple arena, battlegrounds and outdoor pvp is the basic of all MMOs and they just say an absolute NO. Why would you go against your customers like that? Customers complaining about bugs and performance in Cyrodiil for a year now and they still want Cyrodiil to be the ultimate PvP paradise rejecting all the player base requests ? brrr

Slurg · March 2015

I agree with ZOS, Cyrodiil should be a priority and they shouldn't develop any other PvP content.

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

That we don't get any Arenas is understandable and not a big surprise. Small scale PVP would kill Cyrodil as its easier to hit a button to queue up, than to ride out looking for fights.

It really scares me that ZoS thinks the same way you do, because what you are saying is totally nonsensical. The reason so many players won't do PvP, and the few players who do play PvP complain constantly, is that PvP in ESO is just NOT THAT FUN. Players want ACTION, not endless riding around on horses. Players want to get right back in the fight after they die, not wander around all over Tamriel hoping the battle isn't over by the time they get there!

Instead of copying all the other MMOs that have flopped throughout history, ZoS should look to multiplayer games that have actually succeeded on a massive scale for inspiration. What's wrong with small scale PvP? Games like Unreal Tournament and Counter-Strike built huge franchises out of small PvP instances. John Carmack has a garage full of vintage Ferraris because people love small scale PvP!

Furthermore, 1v1 arenas are not only widely desired by many, MANY ESO players such as myself, they're actually an important part of the Elder Scrolls lore. All the MILLIONS of people who played Oblivion have fond memories of defeating a long list of scumbags on their way to "Grand Champion" status. ESO players shouldn't be asking "Why can't ESO have an Arena?", we should be asking "Why didn't ESO have an Arena on DAY ONE???"

I think ZOS has kind of backed itself into a corner by making the large scale Cyrodiil battles the centerpiece of the PVP experience in all their marketing efforts and now they've got to spend their resources fixing it or it looks like a fail.

BUT I like what you've said a lot. PVP in its current form is not fun for me at all. Here's how it goes for me:
First I have to find a battle, then I have to ride to the battle, then I get close to the battle and assess the situa...
Whoops, I've already been ganked by some twerp I can't even see because they are a NB, or sniping me with a bow, or because lag. Gankers don't care that i came for a good fight. Now I am dead.
Then I have to ride to the battle ...
Heck with that. I'll go do something else with my time.

Small scale PVP (1v1 - 4v4) in an organized environment for those who actually want a fair fight sounds a lot better. I hope that one day we will see it.

Sacadon · March 2015

I'll explain a different opinion on this post

In short, I'm not yet convinced that I'm aligned with Wheelers ideals for PvP. I do think he has a decent grasp of our issues overall... Again, just not sure I share his vision.

Keeping in mind that we've no idea about the cards they're holding since ZOS is ultra-protective in public settings with information... If they don't focus on solving the fundamental issues first they're just putting lipstick on a pig by redirecting development towards new content. In other words, anything else PvP they add will just carry the problems forward unless they rewrite it from scratch.

If you think ZOS would not rather add new PvP content than fix their foundational issues then I think you may not be considering all factors. This is a hard call on their part and they know that we're bitter and that they'll continue to loose players as a result. But they also probably know that their days are numbered in terms of how much longer they can go-on under the current circumstances. The only thing bigger than this pie in the face issue was console. Haven't you noticed that since console was dev complete we are no longer wondering where's Wheeler? I don't think this is a coincidence. Think of the comparative similarities in difficulty of developing on console and PvP. Whereas the PvE teams can keep cranking away on upcoming content like Wrothgar.

timidobserver · March 2015

I disagree with ZOS, we should be able to have choices and different PvP modes, just like there are a lot of ways to Pve.

I enjoyed PvP in 1.5. I even enjoyed running solo or duo in 1.5. I don't enjoy it at all in 1.6. I just go from time to time in an organized group to farm AP. I think the attribute/damage changes caused Cyrodil to become even more imbalanced and the siege changes are just adding to that.

Sacadon · March 2015

I'll explain a different opinion on this post

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

For some of us, the PVP side is the entire game. In my case, I'm not very interested in veteran dungeon content, trials or PVE zones. Fortunately, the Imperial City is within Cyrodiil. If I understand correctly, it won't be entirely PVE as each faction must battle the other factions to capture and hold various districts of the city.

I would be surprised if the mechanics for the IC districts turn out to be identical to capturing keeps and resources. Hopefully it will be something fun, a change of pace.

Also, as others have mentioned, the Justice System will incorporate PVP soon. This will be a way to fight players on your own faction.

Anyone able to describe what "murderball" objectives in the Cyrodiil towns might be like? I tried googling this, but all I could find is a documentary about wheelchair basketball. Are there some FPS or other multiplayer games which feature murderball PVP mode?
.

Best idea ever, wheelchair mounts in Cyrodiil.

Valymer · March 2015

I disagree with ZOS, we should be able to have choices and different PvP modes, just like there are a lot of ways to Pve.

Until they solve the crippling lag problems, any discussion about PvP in this game is pointless.

Even if they somehow managed to improve the mechanics of Cyrodiil itself, very few people will actually be able to enjoy it due to client crashes, rubber-banding, lag, etc.

Seraphyel · March 2015

I disagree with ZOS, we should be able to have choices and different PvP modes, just like there are a lot of ways to Pve.

Valymer wrote: »

Until they solve the crippling lag problems, any discussion about PvP in this game is pointless.

Even if they somehow managed to improve the mechanics of Cyrodiil itself, very few people will actually be able to enjoy it due to client crashes, rubber-banding, lag, etc.

Cyrodiil is the only outstanding thing about ESO. That's how they marketed ESO and that's still how it is. I can't understand how a developer can neglect their only "speciality" for the development of some dated and mediocre raids.

wOOOOt_of_SD · March 2015

I agree with ZOS, Cyrodiil should be a priority and they shouldn't develop any other PvP content.

Cyradiil is all the PVP i need and want.
Here I can solo, Group and zerg when and if I want to.
Works great - Cyradiil is the best MMO PVP i have ever played, even better than Daoc!

Phinix1 · March 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Players want ACTION, not endless riding around on horses. Players want to get right back in the fight after they die, not wander around all over Tamriel hoping the battle isn't over by the time they get there!

I still maintain that removing forward camps was an incredibly BAD idea. They should have tweaked the locations and conditions under which they could be placed perhaps, not just throw them out with the bath water.

I mean on paper sure, they went for the "realism," but this is a game not an interactive war college. People don't care if it is logical for a campaign to move predictably out from locations they have wayshrine/resource access to, they care that they actually get to rack up some kills and see some action in the hours they have to devote to this entertainment media.

Besides, it's not like we have destructable roads/bridges/etc. here so what's the point?

Sadly, ZOS listened to the vocal guild-clique minority that gets invited to galas and pillow parties and asked to co-design their constant re-directions, so now we have Horse Simulator 9000 and a bunch of skelly-suit-wearing siege campers racking up defense points for their zerg ball, laughing all the while about how they have this company in their arse pocket.

Meanwhile, the lack of dueling is totally missing out on a critical opportunity for player-generated content, which adds longevity to the game by empowering a sense of agency and spontaneity. One of the most fun things to do in WoW was simply dueling outside Org, silly as it sounds.

This game REALLY needs dueling. They should make it so that you have to be outside of a city/town/settlement, or just outside of a certain radius of any friendly NPC, whatever. But they NEED to do this.

Heck, even for people that don't like PVP and aren't into dueling, it was sometimes fun just to hang out and watch the skilled players go at it. I remember sitting on the sidelines with like a dozen or so other people watching a group of top ranked arena players go at each other in WoW, and I learned a LOT about the strategies involved just listening to their /say chat.

This game is really missing out on a lot by not having that.

Mikoto · March 2015

I'll explain a different opinion on this post

I hope we can get some battlegrounds like in war/gw2/daoc. I don't think we need arenas but we should have dueling at the very least. 1v1 will affect balance like crazy at least have it like 3v3v3 at the lowest with objectives around to do in the map like koth or something.

Razzak · March 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

That we don't get any Arenas is understandable and not a big surprise. Small scale PVP would kill Cyrodil as its easier to hit a button to queue up, than to ride out looking for fights.

It really scares me that ZoS thinks the same way you do, because what you are saying is totally nonsensical. The reason so many players won't do PvP, and the few players who do play PvP complain constantly, is that PvP in ESO is just NOT THAT FUN. Players want ACTION, not endless riding around on horses. Players want to get right back in the fight after they die, not wander around all over Tamriel hoping the battle isn't over by the time they get there!

Instead of copying all the other MMOs that have flopped throughout history, ZoS should look to multiplayer games that have actually succeeded on a massive scale for inspiration. What's wrong with small scale PvP? Games like Unreal Tournament and Counter-Strike built huge franchises out of small PvP instances. John Carmack has a garage full of vintage Ferraris because people love small scale PvP!

Furthermore, 1v1 arenas are not only widely desired by many, MANY ESO players such as myself, they're actually an important part of the Elder Scrolls lore. All the MILLIONS of people who played Oblivion have fond memories of defeating a long list of scumbags on their way to "Grand Champion" status. ESO players shouldn't be asking "Why can't ESO have an Arena?", we should be asking "Why didn't ESO have an Arena on DAY ONE???"

Completely agree.

Sacklunch · March 2015

I'll explain a different opinion on this post

The simple fact of the matter is that their business model as it stands is to sell games not support them. They need to fix all the PVE sh** or the console launch will go as bad as the PC launch did. As such PVP gets the back burner.

Think of this game as a two year Beta Test. If the console sells enough, if they lessen the ram usage of the game, if the PSN, and Microsoft servers can even support the traffic load to PVP, then maybe ZOS gives a PVP update (but that is a LOT of ifs LOL). PS thanks for your time and $ in testing this game up to now....

Dudis · March 2015

I agree with ZOS, Cyrodiil should be a priority and they shouldn't develop any other PvP content.

Please DO NOT add BGs or arenas!

Open world pvp is the only fun pvp imo. If i wanted to play capture the flag i'd go play a game that's designed and balanced around that game-mode.

I'd be fine with them adding some kind of FFA pvp zone though.

Makkir · March 2015

I agree with ZOS, Cyrodiil should be a priority and they shouldn't develop any other PvP content.

I like the current system. Cyrodiil is a very large playing area. We don't have 13 million players in this MMO. Opening up world PvP or Battlegrounds is going to take a lot of players away from Cyrodiil. Then you guys will complain on the forums about how empty your campaigns are...

I don't go into Burger King and complain they don't sell chicken alfredo. You guys knew what you were getting into a year ago. Look over the list of MMOs out there, find one that has what you are looking for and go play it. Don't come into an MMO and try to change it or you're going to be whiny.

Obscure · March 2015

I disagree with ZOS, we should be able to have choices and different PvP modes, just like there are a lot of ways to Pve.

No reason a BG or Arena need conflict with Cyrodiil. If they can't think of a way to make them symbiotic here's a few:

- Arena Champion Campaign Bonus: reduce the emperor campaign bonus granted and split it with this bonus
- Only players of Alliance rank 5 or higher can compete in the arenas
- Each keep hosts an arena fight for guild ownership/claiming (first 5 to claim go into a free for all battle royale instance) with uncontested claiming declareing ownership in 60 seconds.
- Players in Cyrodiil Queue have the option to fight in a free for all Battleground with others in the queue to move up in the queue.
- Arena victory rewards are siege weapons, with a really rare chance of a Forward Camp.
- Arena entry tickets are required to fight in the arena and only obtained with AP.
- Players can challenge other players to single combat at inactive Cyrodiil Dolmens, transporting them to a generic cold harbour 1 v 1 arena, rewarding the victor the ability to return to Cyrodiil at a Dolmen location of their choosing at the cost of AP, or they must manually exit that instance to end up in the actual Cold Harbour PvE map. The loser must respawn in PvE at a wayshrine, with the closest automatic way shrine located in Cold Harbour.
- All towns become Battlegrounds that factions fight for control over to permit them to use the town as a spawn location (like forward camps) and hire mercenaries for AP (like the various mercenaries that were removed).

Go on @ZOS, take your pick. Looking at your game and determining focusing on PvE content is more important because more players do that instead of PvP and thus its the best way to spend development time and money is FLAWED LOGIC. Fewer people played in Cyrodiil because you didn't develop it well enough, to this day its a "skill optional" zerg haven, that's just a bunch of people firing siege weapons at each other in the open field. It's unpopular among the bulk of your fan base because you didn't develop it well enough, and since it's unpopular you continue to not develop it, making it dull and boring among the fans of the mode, further compounding it's lack of popularity. PC version could be excused in lack of refinement and polish. A console game delayed over a year lacking refinement and polish? The reviews are going to be SCATHING, and with association to the Elder Scrolls IP, it risks damaging the growth in consumer base for the IP.

ESO being awesome has more than ESO's success riding on it, but the success of a long standing intellectual property. Reputations take a lifetime to build, and it can all come crashing down as fast as someone can get a hashtag trending on Twitter.

Mikoto · March 2015

I'll explain a different opinion on this post

Sacadon wrote: »

In short, I'm not yet convinced that I'm aligned with Wheelers ideals for PvP. I do think he has a decent grasp of our issues overall... Again, just not sure I share his vision.

Keeping in mind that we've no idea about the cards they're holding since ZOS is ultra-protective in public settings with information... If they don't focus on solving the fundamental issues first they're just putting lipstick on a pig by redirecting development towards new content. In other words, anything else PvP they add will just carry the problems forward unless they rewrite it from scratch.

If you think ZOS would not rather add new PvP content than fix their foundational issues then I think you may not be considering all factors. This is a hard call on their part and they know that we're bitter and that they'll continue to loose players as a result. But they also probably know that their days are numbered in terms of how much longer they can go-on under the current circumstances. The only thing bigger than this pie in the face issue was console. Haven't you noticed that since console was dev complete we are no longer wondering where's Wheeler? I don't think this is a coincidence. Think of the comparative similarities in difficulty of developing on console and PvP. Whereas the PvE teams can keep cranking away on upcoming content like Wrothgar.

Look up Warhammer Online murderball