Those with Senche: Is she slightly too small?

Obscure · March 2015

Yes , wee bit larger please.

Rosveen wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

@Gidorick

What makes you think i wasnt aware of the physiological lack of similarity to the lore? Also how that is relevant. Khajiit is Khajiit, be they Senche, Suthay, Ohmes, Alphiq, or any of the many breeds.

Senche are huge, and Senche Raht are supposed to be twice the height of an Altmer. ESO's representation of Senche is plain wrong.

Don't get me wrong, they look cool, and they're really well done. But that's not an effin' Senche.

I need a Dragon Break to explain all the stuff that's just plain wrong in ESO... EX: why the hell is Cyrodiil not a jungle?! I know, I know, Oblivion fan service. But at least give me a Dragon Broke Easter egg somewhere!

I assumed you didn't know because you were arguing about how Senche are represented in lore. I find it interesting that you argue that The ESO Game, Lore Master Lawrence Schick, AND established lore are all wrong... what would it take for you to accept that these Senche mounts are not Khajiit?

THIS is why I implored ZOS to name the mount Striped Senche-Tiger. I wish they had.

Calling them Senche-Tigers and stating they're actually Senche that have long crossbred with tigers is literally all that it would take for me to accept. But to call them Senche is to call them Khajiit, which is far from accurate in their depiction in ESO.

They are called senche-tigers, it's literally in their description.
"A semi-domesticated version of the wild senche-tiger, this distant relative of the Khajiit has been bred for size and manageability."

Your explanation is a whole new can of worms. Not only would it be bestiality, but more interestingly, it would mean that sapient Khajiit and non-sapient animals can create offspring (presumably fertile). Would it be true for all Khajiiti furstocks? What about other races?

So it is literally a bred for purpose base animal, with sapient Senche ancestry, supporting the cross breed theory.

Khajiit, or at least Suthay-Raht reproduction organs, as explored by Berenziah, are consistent with the organs of felines. It's not unlikely bestiality would occur among Khajiit and Tigers in any different or less depraved fashion as it does amoung men and sheep. The question is it possible for them to produce offspring. Could a Alphiq produce offspring with a tabby cat? Could a Ohme produce offspring with a Bosmer? The breadth of the changes in Khajiit physiology caused by their birth moon has never been addressed in specific. This would be a nice place to start to the inference that it extends to reproduction capability.

Rosveen · March 2015

Not too small.

Obscure wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

@Gidorick

What makes you think i wasnt aware of the physiological lack of similarity to the lore? Also how that is relevant. Khajiit is Khajiit, be they Senche, Suthay, Ohmes, Alphiq, or any of the many breeds.

Senche are huge, and Senche Raht are supposed to be twice the height of an Altmer. ESO's representation of Senche is plain wrong.

Don't get me wrong, they look cool, and they're really well done. But that's not an effin' Senche.

I need a Dragon Break to explain all the stuff that's just plain wrong in ESO... EX: why the hell is Cyrodiil not a jungle?! I know, I know, Oblivion fan service. But at least give me a Dragon Broke Easter egg somewhere!

I assumed you didn't know because you were arguing about how Senche are represented in lore. I find it interesting that you argue that The ESO Game, Lore Master Lawrence Schick, AND established lore are all wrong... what would it take for you to accept that these Senche mounts are not Khajiit?

THIS is why I implored ZOS to name the mount Striped Senche-Tiger. I wish they had.

Calling them Senche-Tigers and stating they're actually Senche that have long crossbred with tigers is literally all that it would take for me to accept. But to call them Senche is to call them Khajiit, which is far from accurate in their depiction in ESO.

They are called senche-tigers, it's literally in their description.
"A semi-domesticated version of the wild senche-tiger, this distant relative of the Khajiit has been bred for size and manageability."

Your explanation is a whole new can of worms. Not only would it be bestiality, but more interestingly, it would mean that sapient Khajiit and non-sapient animals can create offspring (presumably fertile). Would it be true for all Khajiiti furstocks? What about other races?

So it is literally a bred for purpose base animal, with sapient Senche ancestry, supporting the cross breed theory.

Khajiit, or at least Suthay-Raht reproduction organs, as explored by Berenziah, are consistent with the organs of felines. It's not unlikely bestiality would occur among Khajiit and Tigers in any different or less depraved fashion as it does amoung men and sheep. The question is it possible for them to produce offspring. Could a Alphiq produce offspring with a tabby cat? Could a Ohme produce offspring with a Bosmer? The breadth of the changes in Khajiit physiology caused by their birth moon has never been addressed in specific. This would be a nice place to start to the inference that it extends to reproduction capability.

They aren't necessarily a result of cross-breeding. Distant relative could mean they had common ancestors, much like humans and apes in our world. Of course, our evolution has to be adjusted for Tamriel creation myths, with new races being created not only through traditional cross-breeding like Bretons, but also magic like Dunmer or Bosmer. Khajiit ascended from cats? Azura was inspired by Kynareth's creation? Or cats devolved from Khajiit like in the Tale of Dro'Zira? I don't know.

SLy_Kyti · March 2015

Yes , wee bit larger please.

Hey thread author! Yeah tapio...can ya...hey...can ya click the little gear up there ^ ^ ? Its right by your title...click "edit"... Add an S to " enche"....purrfect.

Or maybe its "iger".

Obscure · March 2015

Yes , wee bit larger please.

Rosveen wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

@Gidorick

What makes you think i wasnt aware of the physiological lack of similarity to the lore? Also how that is relevant. Khajiit is Khajiit, be they Senche, Suthay, Ohmes, Alphiq, or any of the many breeds.

Senche are huge, and Senche Raht are supposed to be twice the height of an Altmer. ESO's representation of Senche is plain wrong.

Don't get me wrong, they look cool, and they're really well done. But that's not an effin' Senche.

I need a Dragon Break to explain all the stuff that's just plain wrong in ESO... EX: why the hell is Cyrodiil not a jungle?! I know, I know, Oblivion fan service. But at least give me a Dragon Broke Easter egg somewhere!

I assumed you didn't know because you were arguing about how Senche are represented in lore. I find it interesting that you argue that The ESO Game, Lore Master Lawrence Schick, AND established lore are all wrong... what would it take for you to accept that these Senche mounts are not Khajiit?

THIS is why I implored ZOS to name the mount Striped Senche-Tiger. I wish they had.

Calling them Senche-Tigers and stating they're actually Senche that have long crossbred with tigers is literally all that it would take for me to accept. But to call them Senche is to call them Khajiit, which is far from accurate in their depiction in ESO.

They are called senche-tigers, it's literally in their description.
"A semi-domesticated version of the wild senche-tiger, this distant relative of the Khajiit has been bred for size and manageability."

Your explanation is a whole new can of worms. Not only would it be bestiality, but more interestingly, it would mean that sapient Khajiit and non-sapient animals can create offspring (presumably fertile). Would it be true for all Khajiiti furstocks? What about other races?

So it is literally a bred for purpose base animal, with sapient Senche ancestry, supporting the cross breed theory.

Khajiit, or at least Suthay-Raht reproduction organs, as explored by Berenziah, are consistent with the organs of felines. It's not unlikely bestiality would occur among Khajiit and Tigers in any different or less depraved fashion as it does amoung men and sheep. The question is it possible for them to produce offspring. Could a Alphiq produce offspring with a tabby cat? Could a Ohme produce offspring with a Bosmer? The breadth of the changes in Khajiit physiology caused by their birth moon has never been addressed in specific. This would be a nice place to start to the inference that it extends to reproduction capability.

They aren't necessarily a result of cross-breeding. Distant relative could mean they had common ancestors, much like humans and apes in our world. Of course, our evolution has to be adjusted for Tamriel creation myths, with new races being created not only through traditional cross-breeding like Bretons, but also magic like Dunmer or Bosmer. Khajiit ascended from cats? Azura was inspired by Kynareth's creation? Or cats devolved from Khajiit like in the Tale of Dro'Zira? I don't know.

Argonian, Khajiit, Nord, and Altmer are all mammalian species with mammary glands among females located in the same position and configuration (save for various breeds of Khajiit), this infers they all share a distant common primate ancestor. Stating the Senche Tiger has a specifically Khajiit distant relative refers to a point in time at which the Khajiit ancestry was separated from the other primate species. I.E. they do not share ancestry with other primates. Felines and Primates, among mammals, departed from one another long before Primates sub divided. Only after the point the Khajiit common ancestor with other primates departed from the other species of primates could this Senche-Tiger have come about. Based on the strong similarity between a Tiger and a Senche, the reasonable conclusion is that, based on birth moon, a Khajiit could have the corresponding reprodiuctive organs to match those of its distant relative facilitating inter breeding. On a long enough time line this inter breeding might have ceased after a sufficiently different populace of Khajiit and Senche-Tiger half breeds were established perhaps a hundred of thousand or so years ago.

What ever the case may be, the game world is unaware of evolutionary genetics, and that description suggests that the Khajiit understand the Senche-Tigers to be base animals that are in fact related to them. The notion that they are specifically bred for purpose reinforces the notion they are considered lesser than Khajiit, and thus not sapient life. In context, humans share a distant relative with horses, but we note much less biological kinship with them than we do with other primates.

If anything is an interesting thing for me to think about. I'm mostly just vomiting thought in this post, feel free to counter it.

Tapio75 · March 2015

Yes , wee bit larger please.

I indeed wish i could edit the title to say Senche but alas.. There is no edit button i can press on the post

Gidorick · March 2015

Not too small.

Tapio75 wrote: »

I indeed wish i could edit the title to say Senche but alas.. There is no edit button i can press on the post

Click the little gear icon next to the title of the thread at the top of the screen.

azoriangaming · March 2015

Yes , wee bit larger please.

every toon i go on it looks a little bit weird when i ride it like the toon is too big for the mount

Gidorick · March 2015

Not too small.

Obscure wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

@Gidorick

What makes you think i wasnt aware of the physiological lack of similarity to the lore? Also how that is relevant. Khajiit is Khajiit, be they Senche, Suthay, Ohmes, Alphiq, or any of the many breeds.

Senche are huge, and Senche Raht are supposed to be twice the height of an Altmer. ESO's representation of Senche is plain wrong.

Don't get me wrong, they look cool, and they're really well done. But that's not an effin' Senche.

I need a Dragon Break to explain all the stuff that's just plain wrong in ESO... EX: why the hell is Cyrodiil not a jungle?! I know, I know, Oblivion fan service. But at least give me a Dragon Broke Easter egg somewhere!

I assumed you didn't know because you were arguing about how Senche are represented in lore. I find it interesting that you argue that The ESO Game, Lore Master Lawrence Schick, AND established lore are all wrong... what would it take for you to accept that these Senche mounts are not Khajiit?

THIS is why I implored ZOS to name the mount Striped Senche-Tiger. I wish they had.

Calling them Senche-Tigers and stating they're actually Senche that have long crossbred with tigers is literally all that it would take for me to accept. But to call them Senche is to call them Khajiit, which is far from accurate in their depiction in ESO.

They are called senche-tigers, it's literally in their description.
"A semi-domesticated version of the wild senche-tiger, this distant relative of the Khajiit has been bred for size and manageability."

Your explanation is a whole new can of worms. Not only would it be bestiality, but more interestingly, it would mean that sapient Khajiit and non-sapient animals can create offspring (presumably fertile). Would it be true for all Khajiiti furstocks? What about other races?

So it is literally a bred for purpose base animal, with sapient Senche ancestry, supporting the cross breed theory.

Khajiit, or at least Suthay-Raht reproduction organs, as explored by Berenziah, are consistent with the organs of felines. It's not unlikely bestiality would occur among Khajiit and Tigers in any different or less depraved fashion as it does amoung men and sheep. The question is it possible for them to produce offspring. Could a Alphiq produce offspring with a tabby cat? Could a Ohme produce offspring with a Bosmer? The breadth of the changes in Khajiit physiology caused by their birth moon has never been addressed in specific. This would be a nice place to start to the inference that it extends to reproduction capability.

They aren't necessarily a result of cross-breeding. Distant relative could mean they had common ancestors, much like humans and apes in our world. Of course, our evolution has to be adjusted for Tamriel creation myths, with new races being created not only through traditional cross-breeding like Bretons, but also magic like Dunmer or Bosmer. Khajiit ascended from cats? Azura was inspired by Kynareth's creation? Or cats devolved from Khajiit like in the Tale of Dro'Zira? I don't know.

Argonian, Khajiit, Nord, and Altmer are all mammalian species with mammary glands among females located in the same position and configuration (save for various breeds of Khajiit), this infers they all share a distant common primate ancestor. Stating the Senche Tiger has a specifically Khajiit distant relative refers to a point in time at which the Khajiit ancestry was separated from the other primate species. I.E. they do not share ancestry with other primates. Felines and Primates, among mammals, departed from one another long before Primates sub divided. Only after the point the Khajiit common ancestor with other primates departed from the other species of primates could this Senche-Tiger have come about. Based on the strong similarity between a Tiger and a Senche, the reasonable conclusion is that, based on birth moon, a Khajiit could have the corresponding reprodiuctive organs to match those of its distant relative facilitating inter breeding. On a long enough time line this inter breeding might have ceased after a sufficiently different populace of Khajiit and Senche-Tiger half breeds were established perhaps a hundred of thousand or so years ago.

What ever the case may be, the game world is unaware of evolutionary genetics, and that description suggests that the Khajiit understand the Senche-Tigers to be base animals that are in fact related to them. The notion that they are specifically bred for purpose reinforces the notion they are considered lesser than Khajiit, and thus not sapient life. In context, humans share a distant relative with horses, but we note much less biological kinship with them than we do with other primates.

If anything is an interesting thing for me to think about. I'm mostly just vomiting thought in this post, feel free to counter it.

Life didn't "evolve" in Tamriel like we think it did in our world. so the whole evolutionary development of Khajiit vs Men and Mer is a moot point. I don't recall ever hearing about Khajiit interbreeding with non-Khajiit cats. I assume that would be kind of like suggesting that Apes can breed with monkeys. Just because they look similar doesn't mean they are the same. Kind of how the Red Panda looks like a Racoon... Looks the same but are not directly related, only by common ancestry.

I have always taken that all Khajiit can interbreed amongst the furstocks since the breed of the Khajiit is entirely dependent on the phase of the moon. Any type of Khajiit can have any other type of Khajiit.

An Alfiq could give birth to a Cathay-Raht who could give birth to a Senche who could give birth to a Ohmes. So it's not like an Ohmes and a Suthay always make a Dagi (but they could!)... so I personally feel it's safe to assume they are all "genetically" the same, containing whatever "genes" it takes to make whatever Khajiit. The only limitations to breeding would likely be physical. A Senche couldn't breed with an Alfiq simply because of physiological incompatibilities.

The "bred for size and manageability" Is similar to how dog breeds have been bred for various reasons, they are bred with other large cats, but not Khajiit.

At least that's my take on all this.

Obscure · March 2015

Yes , wee bit larger please.

@Gidorick

Evolutionary biology is the first method my brain uses to explain how a base animal is related to the Khajiit, triggered by the term "a distant relative". Evolution occurs in Nirn, though it's worth mentioning people also shoot lightening bolts from their hands, so the laws governing it are certain to be at the very least mildly different. Without question all the races of mer share a common ancestor, all the races of men share a common ancestor, Bretons share both, and it's fuzzy on Argonian ancestry. The Khajiit, as far as I can recall, bear no biological relation to other species in the lore (until this mount). There have been theories that they were once Aldmer and arrived in Tamriel long before the Ayleid, Dwemer, or Falmer. My own opinion is they arrived on Nirn along with the Aldmer, and were born in the death of Lorkhan, living fragments of his body physically manifesting the connection between Nirn, the body of Lorkan, and the Lunar Lorkhan Messer and Seccunda. Naturally my theory conflicts with the Khajiit having evolved naturally from base animals, though the " distant relative " quip infers a much much less significant origin story.

This leaves a few options:
1) Some Daedric Prince got bored and made a race out of tigers it found on Nirn, but not all of them, leaving a portion of them to remain tigers as a "distant relative" now. Maybe it was Hircine making better prey to hunt with his wolves and he fittingly cats to chase.
2) The Khajiit are generically compatible with feline animals they resemble. There's a biological resemblance in at least their reproductive organs (with a very gratuitous reference to it in the lore might I add), not just appearances such as those between a racoon and a red panda.
3) The Khajiit became such over long slow tedious millions of years of natural evolution... well what ever "natural" is on Nirn.

Any other ideas?

Rosveen · March 2015

Not too small.

I'm too tired to bounce ideas, I'll be back in the morning. Just two points:

Obscure wrote: »

1) Some Daedric Prince got bored and made a race out of tigers it found on Nirn, but not all of them, leaving a portion of them to remain tigers as a "distant relative" now. Maybe it was Hircine making better prey to hunt with his wolves and he fittingly cats to chase.

Pretty sure it's established that was Azura, as per Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi.

Obscure wrote: »

3) The Khajiit became such over long slow tedious millions of years of natural evolution... well what ever "natural" is on Nirn.

At the time of the Three-Banners War, the current iteration of Tamriel is only about 6000 years old. Everything happens quite fast there, probably because change is often fueled by belief.

Obscure · March 2015

Yes , wee bit larger please.

Rosveen wrote: »

At the time of the Three-Banners War, the current iteration of Tamriel is only about 6000 years old. Everything happens quite fast there, probably because change is often fueled by belief.

The other theory! I've heard this one as well. The races on Nirn are only different races because they genuinely believe they are different. Everything that's written is just the accounting of the belief which is in and of itself the reason they are different.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO · March 2015

Yes , wee bit larger please.

To small and to floppy, she flops around like a rag doll, more physics in general would be nice.

LtCrunch · March 2015

Not too small.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

The senche tiger isn't a Khajiit, confirmed by the loremaster. It's just a tiger.

Shunravi wrote: »

The senche mount is not a true senche. This was confirmed by the loremaster..

It's called a SENCHE, I saw the 'loremaster' trying to argue it's 'just' a tiger but it's CALLED a Senche by ZOS!

BTW, the real loremasters work at Bethesda not ZOS.

Problem with your logic is that ZOS consults with BGS all the time, the lore in this game is just as legitimate as lore in any other TES game.

LtCrunch · March 2015

Not too small.

Obscure wrote: »

@Gidorick

What makes you think i wasnt aware of the physiological lack of similarity to the lore? Also how that is relevant. Khajiit is Khajiit, be they Senche, Suthay, Ohmes, Alphiq, or any of the many breeds.

Senche are huge, and Senche Raht are supposed to be twice the height of an Altmer. ESO's representation of Senche is plain wrong.

Don't get me wrong, they look cool, and they're really well done. But that's not an effin' Senche.

I need a Dragon Break to explain all the stuff that's just plain wrong in ESO... EX: why the hell is Cyrodiil not a jungle?! I know, I know, Oblivion fan service. But at least give me a Dragon Broke Easter egg somewhere!

Because the nature of CHIM is very vague and it looks like it changes things throughout the timeline, not just when going forward. This is our first time going backwards in the timeline. So all that does is give us more insight into how CHIM works. This has been discussed ad nauseam.

Genomic · March 2015

Though the will of the Daedric prince of the cash shop, Dolladolla, all lore created in ESO is valid. If you can slap a price tag on it, it becomes canon.

Dekkameron · March 2015

Genomic wrote: »

Though the will of the Daedric prince of the cash shop, Dolladolla, all lore created in ESO is valid. If you can slap a price tag on it, it becomes canon.

The god of large bulging wallets seems like more of a Khajiit pantheon style thang.

Audigy · March 2015

Its actually quite a big tiger, my sorceress who is not the tallest has trouble getting on its back

She looks a bit like a young girl on a huge horse, kind of weird

twev · March 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

Tapio75 wrote: »

I indeed wish i could edit the title to say Senche but alas.. There is no edit button i can press on the post

Click the little gear icon next to the title of the thread at the top of the screen.

After a period of time (approx 24 hours?) the edit button doesn't seem to work.

I don't know if it's a 'rule', or it just tends to often happen that way. I've tried to edit my titles with '[answered]' on occasion and failed a few times.

olsborg · March 2015

Yes , wee bit larger please.

I want an elf-spedific mount:) Elk<3

LMar · March 2015

olsborg wrote: »

I want an elf-spedific mount:) Elk<3

This isn't LotR :P If anything it would be giant insects heheh

Obscure wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

At the time of the Three-Banners War, the current iteration of Tamriel is only about 6000 years old. Everything happens quite fast there, probably because change is often fueled by belief.

The other theory! I've heard this one as well. The races on Nirn are only different races because they genuinely believe they are different. Everything that's written is just the accounting of the belief which is in and of itself the reason they are different.

It isn't just a theory. Basically Azura took some Bosmer and made them into Khajiit. Also Mer and Mer all have a common ancestor in the Ehlnofey. Men came from the wandering Ehlnofey and Mer from the Old Ehlnofey. Argonians were made from the Hist which are rumoured to either be descendants of the Ehlnofey or to have come to Nirn along with the Ehlnofey (I think the latter is probably the correct one). Some even say that Argonians are morphs of the Hist, half trees/half lizards although this theory might have been retconned in favour of the Hist trees creating the Argonians (or it might be symbolic indicating that there would be no argonians without the Hist)

Also the jungle matter: There is a book in-game which states that the Towers might be changing the local creation in accordance to the dominant race which owns the Tower. So it used to be a jungle for hot-humid-loving Ayleids and it slowly changed to a more temperate climate for the Imperials after they overthrew the elves. Or the CHIM might work retroactively.

SantieClaws · March 2015

I keep looking and I'm still not sure if it is a 'she'. No obvious signs of it being a 'he' but then again they remove those sorts of things on some cats don't they? ...