Cadwell's Silver and Gold, Do You Like It?

Seraphyel · March 2015

Uviryth wrote: »

My counterquestion is, what is there not to like?

* Missing logic behind it
* Missing story behind it
* Dull implementation of VR (zones/story)
* Overall approach
* Copy & Paste quests in all three factions (even copy&paste NPCs)
* Slow progression
* Missing diversity
* Plain and bland design

You want more? There is an indefinite list of things that make the Veteran System bad.

Armitas · March 2015

It gives me something to do besides Craglorn...which is a wasteland of XP.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · March 2015

Gyudan wrote: »

The poll options are slightly limited. Why is there no answer somewhere between "great" and "makes no sense"?

Agreed, polls with an overt agenda usually don't produce valid results.

Naor_Sarethi · March 2015

The fact that Quests *do* exist for Veteran levels is not the question.
The question is, what *kind* of quests make sense and are they enjoyable to spend most of your ingame time on?
And since i've been doing it for a while now i can clearly say, the contrast between the Mainstories quality, the 1-49 quest quality, in regards to logic, my character, feeling comfortable in the environment and around the people you quest ad the design (from EP perspective) and Cadwells S&G is massive.

Seraphyel wrote: »

Uviryth wrote: »

My counterquestion is, what is there not to like?

* Missing logic behind it
* Missing story behind it
* Dull implementation of VR (zones/story)
* Overall approach
* Copy & Paste quests in all three factions (even copy&paste NPCs)
* Slow progression
* Missing diversity
* Plain and bland design

Those are exactly the points that make it unenjoyable.

ItsGlaive · March 2015

Uviryth wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Uviryth wrote: »

Are you kidding me? Without Cadwells Silver and Gold I wouldnt waste a second look on this game.

Please explain what makes you think they're so great.

-I love questing. In an ideal world for me an mmo would never ever run out of quests,they would just continue indefinitely until there is nothing left to do for my character, at all. I hate grinding, I dont even kill enemies that dont belong to a quest or stand in the way of my objective.

-I would have never ever ever started a character in another realm. There for I would have never experienced any of the storylines of DC or AD. Thats something I hate in other games (like ToR or WoW).

-I love exploring. With Cadwell the continent triples in size and excitement.

My counterquestion is, what is there not to like?

Totally valid, although I do disagree.

As for what there is not to like. Read the rest of the thread, all the reasons are given in there already

Uviryth · March 2015

Seraphyel wrote: »

* Missing logic behind it
* Missing story behind it
* Dull implementation of VR (zones/story)

As a roleplayer none of that concerns me. In my head the moment Cadwell sent me to my first new encounter I already made up my own multiverse-theory with my characters soul splitting and getting suspended in Oblivion for as long as the journey takes. Ever played Bioshock:Infinite? Kinda like that, infinite Comstocks in infinite realities doing different things, yet somehow get connected through Elizabeths magic/technology.

* Overall approach

?

* Copy & Paste quests in all three factions (even copy&paste NPCs)

I can`t confirm that. Sure, with that many quests some objctives are bound to repeat itself. But thats very rare in comparison to most other mmo`s (which 99% dont have near that many quests). And the NPCs cpy and paste? They aren`t even the same races....

* Slow progression

I dont care progression, I dont even have an exp-bar. And the world in ESO makes me even forget that there is such a thing as Levels.

* Missing diversity
* Plain and bland design

* ? (you kinda say the same thing over and over, only in different words)

You want more? There is an indefinite list of things that make the Veteran System bad.

As of now you didnt name one that I can even remotely support.
I get you dont like it. Thats your opinion. But, that doesnt mean its the truth.

Naor_Sarethi · March 2015

@Uviryth

* Missing logic behind it

Being in a parallel version of history, i am still the same guy.
And the game decides for you that you want to help everyone in these factions.
Why would you work for the Pact, fight the other factions in PvP all the time, but spend all your PvE time helping them again?

* Missing story behind it

"Missing" as in almost lacking a story. Yes there is a miniature excuse for a story behind it but it does not become visible at any time unless you finish Silver or Gold.
If i had a Daedric Prince turn up, freezing time and talking to me, maybe more than one, it would be interesting.
If Cadwell made more appereances and the quests differed from the standard AD/ DC content to match the story, it would work.
But none of this is happening.

* Dull implementation of VR (zones/story)

That is a case for all zones and a general problem. Things are incredibly annoying or repetitive.
Unless you *really* really... are exactly what the devs had in mind when designing the quests which i can promise you is not the case in many cases, then you have little to no interest in following a questline that forces decisions and sentiments on you that you do not share whatsoever.

* Overall approach

It's the feeling of "we ran out of ideas" simply.
No love or care was given in regards to people spending their Veteran levels there.
The quests made sense, for members of the faction.
I chose EP because i liked them and that is why i enjoyed my quests there (with exceptions, that i specified in other threads)
Now my choice is irrelevant since one way or another i need to side with everyone, aka it nullifies my initial choice.

* Copy & Paste quests in all three factions (even copy&paste NPCs)

If i had a septim for every time i had to "disable those 2/3/4 crystals"," kill x mobs","put fires out","gather item x,y,z"
I would move into a house in Caldera, turn into a scamp and open a shady business.

* Slow progression

Tediousness and slow progression work hand in hand.
1-49 i forgot my xp bar since i enjoyed the quest.
Now i find myself looking at it over and over to see when this mindless grind will finally end and i can move on to have more nonsense thrown at me.

* Missing diversity

Little to no choices that matter, all the same do goodie, moralistic approach.
No wit, No humour, just a boring modernized and political correct version of Tamriel.

* Plain and bland design

See above. The devs have a shallow and naive vision of Tamriel, mainly because i assume this particular team has not invested time into understanding how the universe really is, or simply disagree with some parts such as slavery, racial bias, daedra worship etc and make the game into a conformist, linear and very predictable world with no real distinctions between factions in terms of ideology and mentality.
Everyone seems to have the same 21st century western attitude to life, which is so out of place, it hurts.

You want more? There is an indefinite list of things that make the Veteran System bad.

See polls on Mature content e.g.

lichmeister · March 2015

haha seen this poll before

usually there's a 3rd option somewhere between tickled and peeved.
didn't mind it so much when i had only had a few characters but now its kinda like watching the same movie again and again and again and again...

lichmeister · March 2015

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Get rid of the themepark. Sandbox FTW.

I really hope that when/if they (ZOS) ever release a Fallout that they get this right. Sandbox and lots and lots of Factions.

Tapio75 · March 2015

I like them as an option but in general way to give content, i dont like them.

nimander99 · March 2015

I think you should have the option to fight molag in silver and gold too though, thats always been annoying imo.

Kingdinguhling · March 2015

i think they have a issue here that they are suppose to address soon but my suggestion was this.

1-50 remove stray quests from the linear story line and skill point quests by changing the symbol and adding the new story line symbol into tutorial so you know when and where you have to go for story line quests. the stray quests (Extra content) should be optional and should not blend in with your story line quests so easily.

Second part so the VR1-14 zones are still relevant add the same symbols to cadwells silver and gold so its becomes easier to follow and becomes linear.

increase XP from story line and Cadwells silver and gold to land you around VR10 including all the dungeons.

All extra quests scale XP from 1-VR14 in any zone scale to lvl in XP so you can go back and complete them for gear gold or XP at your leisure.

this would give players a choice to farm skyshards, XP, gear, and gold at there own pace and create a direct linear story line that lands you near lvl cap and would shorten it quite a bit.

I think they are going to remove the VR ranks soon (next few months) which means this is probably already gonna happen but I'm not sure how they are going to fix certain things like VR1-14 gear, itemization, and crafting.

The other thing is I know people got 70 Champion points for lvling VR1-14 so they shouldn't cry about being set back to 50 but you know its going to happen.

Enodoc · March 2015

bellanca6561n wrote: »

The merits of that are one thing. But nobody would have created such extreme scenarios like Ruuivatar if they intended you to play FOR that side later. I came to the Dominion with but one thing in mind: murdering its ruler in a slow and gruesome way.

Concept theory: when you later go to play for that side, you realise that they are actually not that bad, and see that someone like Ruuvitar is not representative of what the entire faction is like. You then end up with a better background into the Dominion's plight as a whole, and are not bogged down by your hatred of one of their operatives (who they would probably execute if they knew what he was doing).

Seraphyel wrote: »

Uviryth wrote: »

My counterquestion is, what is there not to like?

Let me counter these counters:

* Missing logic behind it

Seeing the events that led up to the invasion of Coldharbour from all angles, not just the one-sided view of your own faction, in an attempt to understand them better.

* Missing story behind it

As above. Meridia specifically wants you to see this so that you understand your faction was an accident of circumstance.

* Dull implementation of VR (zones/story)

Allows for someone with one character to experience everything, so a good implementation if that's what you want. (Needs to be optional though.)

* Overall approach

Yes, as a means to "level in Veteran" (which shouldn't even be a thing), it's a bad approach, but in relation to allowing one character to see everything, it's not so bad.

* Copy & Paste quests in all three factions (even copy&paste NPCs)

Well sure, but with 1,200+ quests that's going to happen. It's the case with any RPG.

* Slow progression
* Missing diversity
* Plain and bland design

Essentially covered already.

Elloa · March 2015

Gyudan wrote: »

The poll options are slightly limited. Why is there no answer somewhere between "great" and "makes no sense"?

I agree with my friend here. I like to be able to solo questing at "end game" I kinda like the fact I can see the other faction lands without rerolling, I understand that Zenimax didn't had the budget to recreate new quest for players of other factions, but... well... it make no sense and it's a "cheap" reconversion of content that was originaly not intented for that.

So all in all, yes I'm enjoying myself, and I guess that's all that matter. But yeah...Well...Zenimax is not fooling me here

eventide03b14a_ESO · March 2015

Cadwell's Silver and Gold is possibly one of the worst things in the game at the moment. I doesn't make any sense and it's horrible that you are forced to do the Silver before you can even get to the Gold zones. I'm okay with doing the side quests in the other factions, but the main story lines should have been reserved for each faction. I have never played an MMO like this where you could just walk into the enemy faction and do quests like you belong there.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · March 2015

I'm an altaholic and Cadwell's seriously killed the pleasure for me, the thought of having to play through the entire game on every one I create really destroyed my desire to .. and now I find I can't progress beyond VR10 it's even more soul destroying.

bellanca6561n · March 2015

Enodoc wrote: »

bellanca6561n wrote: »

The merits of that are one thing. But nobody would have created such extreme scenarios like Ruuivatar if they intended you to play FOR that side later. I came to the Dominion with but one thing in mind: murdering its ruler in a slow and gruesome way.

Concept theory: when you later go to play for that side, you realise that they are actually not that bad, and see that someone like Ruuvitar is not representative of what the entire faction is like. You then end up with a better background into the Dominion's plight as a whole, and are not bogged down by your hatred of one of their operatives (who they would probably execute if they knew what he was doing).

Good point. Problem is they do know. You come across a request for transfer that's been denied by a higher level of command, stressing the importance of Ruuivatar's mission while acknowledging that his methods are "unconventional."

You encounter a soldier at the Hatching Pools who is actively objecting to the entire mission. I'm sure you remember him. He's comparing the Argonian Keepers to the Bosmer Spinners "back home." His Captain replies, "What about 'no survivors' do you fail to understand?"

As a Jew living in Germany I certainly know that Germans are not evil. And those two aspects of that quest are meant to convey that in metaphor - not about Germans or Germany or anything of the sort. Rather it's a more basic truth.

And when I encounter the Queen it would be hard to believe she ordered such a thing. But that means she shouldn't be the ruler. It's difficult to feel any esteem or loyalty for anyone that out of touch. Rather this Queen is wholly self absorbed, clinging to fanciful ideals she expresses ad nauseum.

Prince Naemon seems more suited to the role....but his wife is a flaming bigot who'd have had no objection at all to Ruuvitar.

Thus we have the seeds of a more interesting story than the one presented....well....in my view.

But I digress. My point is that these stories would have been written differently had the authors and developers known the game would be played this way.

This is my objection to the whole Silver and Gold thing. It feels more like desperation than intent to me.

Naor_Sarethi · March 2015

Do NOT bring *any* real life references into this thread, because they will shut it down.
Happened before and will happen again.

bellanca6561n · March 2015

Naor_Sarethi wrote: »

Do NOT bring *any* real life references into this thread, because they will shut it down.
Happened before and will happen again.

Sorry, I had no idea.

I would hope, if that's the policy, that they'd simply delete my posts rather than shut down the thread.

Enodoc · March 2015

bellanca6561n wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

bellanca6561n wrote: »

The merits of that are one thing. But nobody would have created such extreme scenarios like Ruuivatar if they intended you to play FOR that side later. I came to the Dominion with but one thing in mind: murdering its ruler in a slow and gruesome way.

Concept theory: when you later go to play for that side, you realise that they are actually not that bad, and see that someone like Ruuvitar is not representative of what the entire faction is like. You then end up with a better background into the Dominion's plight as a whole, and are not bogged down by your hatred of one of their operatives (who they would probably execute if they knew what he was doing).

Good point. Problem is they do know. You come across a request for transfer that's been denied by a higher level of command, stressing the importance of Ruuivatar's mission while acknowledging that his methods are "unconventional."

You encounter a soldier at the Hatching Pools who is actively objecting to the entire mission. I'm sure you remember him. He's comparing the Argonian Keepers to the Bosmer Spinners "back home." His Captain replies, "What about 'no survivors' do you fail to understand?"

And when I encounter the Queen it would be hard to believe she ordered such a thing. But that means she shouldn't be the ruler. It's difficult to feel any esteem or loyalty for anyone that out of touch. Rather this Queen is wholly self absorbed, clinging to fanciful ideals she expresses ad nauseum.

But I digress. My point is that these stories would have been written differently had the authors and developers known the game would be played this way.

This is my objection to the whole Silver and Gold thing. It feels more like desperation than intent to me.

A fair assessment. But maybe Pelidil was his superior officer? (I won't say any more than that in case you or anyone else hasn't got very far though the Dominion storyline yet.)

WillhelmBlack · March 2015

I hate it, I just got VR14 without doing silver and gold and now I have to grind CP's there. At least there's somewhere to do it.

eventide03b14a_ESO · March 2015

It's hard to appreciate the work they put into the quest lines when you are forced to do them. Instead of doing the quests and zones I want to when I want, I am forced to do them in a very long linear path. I can't stress that enough. If they had broken it down even it would not have been as bad. But I am literally forced to do every quest in the main story just to get the last sky shard. That's absolutely absurd. I really hope they eventually just get rid of Cadwell's Silver and Gold, though it makes no difference to me personally as I have now suffered through it twice.

Grim13 · March 2015

I hate it.

Not only does it ruin rolling alts... I've also had extremely odd references to it while PvP'ing in Cyro!

While omw to a battle playing as AD... I had an npc call out about how it was great to meet King Emeric's hero!?!

Say wha!?

sadownik · March 2015

Naor_Sarethi - i have read your post, and said to my self "well its done. I dont have to gather streng to type that anymore". You have written all the arguments i had in mind when i left the game 6 months ago, and remeberd them all now when im trying to get back.

Argument tthat there are 1200 quests is in my opniion invalid - indeed you cant do 1200 quests orginal, but then why do that many?

Voice overs often make things worse than help. To this day i remeber a moment when i turned back quest for DC informing sister that the brothere she loved is dead and gave her letter. I dont remember the quest mind you - one of hundreds, but i do remebmer her voice - "oh look my shoe is untied, let me fix it. There, its ok now, here is a green item and 50 gold... Thanks!"

Perhas i grow old, perhaps i read too much or its just too little iron in diet, but plowing through 1-50 and starting silver now i found very few quests out of hudrets amuzing. Most are same generic mmo fantasy themed kind and i find it strange reading people do like story line in ESO. Me personaly im here for PvP and its state right now... well lets just say its good they droped subs i think ill just let it sit on HD for a while and check it in few months.

Cheers

Naor_Sarethi · March 2015

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

I hate it, I just got VR14 without doing silver and gold and now I have to grind CP's there. At least there's somewhere to do it.

._. how?

Where is this magic place where i can get to v14 without having to do cadwells?

bellanca6561n · March 2015

There are many splendid quests in this game.

Some are very moving...

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/143306/quests-that-got-to-you/p1

Some are simply hilarious. A Questionable Contract comes to mind. It combines Bosmer cannibalism, the alcoholic wife of an incompetent Altmer mage, and throws in a talking dog. You cannot play this quest and not enjoy it.

And if you didn't feel sad at the conclusion of the main quest chain in Coldharbor...

But that's not the point. The point is that the reason the quests in this game are not remembered fondly - perhaps the sole reason - is because you have to play through them so many damned times.

And that's not the fault of the people who created these.

The food was good. Pity that they made you eat everything on the menu 20 times before allowing you to leave the restaurant.

Chuggernaut · March 2015

Cadwell's Gold and Silver should have been a different chain of missions and not just higher level versions of the same missions. Ideally they should have had some espionage missions like your faction vs the other factions or maybe some kind of you need to work for our faction now because (insert plot point here) reason(s). Those changes would have really added time to the game since the player would be forced to start a character in each faction in order to complete all quests in game. As it stands now, I choose not to create alts in other factions so I can experience the missions for the first time in silver and gold.

LawfulEvil · March 2015

I hate it. Leveled to VR1 and waiting for DLCs. I do not care about getting to VR14, getting CP or min/maxing. I play the game for adventure and RP not grinding the same crap over and over or replaying other factions. I wish there was a forth factions so I can experience fresh content on a forth class. Been around since beta and refuse to level past VR1 but for those who like it more power to ya.

winterscrolls229prerb18_ESO · March 2015

LawfulEvil wrote: »

I hate it. Leveled to VR1 and waiting for DLCs. I do not care about getting to VR14, getting CP or min/maxing. I play the game for adventure and RP not grinding the same crap over and over or replaying other factions.

Exactly. If developers are doing stuff to justify fitting into a genre rather than just sanity its a little dumb. I suspect our friend the subscription business model may have been the ultimate game designer here.

I hope it gets fixed. But then again, there's just so much content to get though at my pace it will be time to move on by the time i get through all the factions anyway.. lol.

Iluvrien · March 2015

Uviryth wrote: »

As a roleplayer none of that concerns me. In my head the moment Cadwell sent me to my first new encounter I already made up my own multiverse-theory with my characters soul splitting and getting suspended in Oblivion for as long as the journey takes. Ever played Bioshock:Infinite? Kinda like that, infinite Comstocks in infinite realities doing different things, yet somehow get connected through Elizabeths magic/technology.

As a roleplayer it does concern me. There are too many factors that suggest this is a linear progression through predetermined paths as opposed to a split of a single soul into fragments, each of which then proceeds to make its own choices. To a degree the path has to be pre-determined as the main quest has to have happened otherwise you wouldn’t be reaching Coldharbour in the first place. I am taking that as a given. But on the other hand having NPCs hail you with greetings regarding things that haven’t happened yet is a bit of a stumbling block.

There is also the fact that you as a player and as a character are aware of the effects that your actions may be having on the Faction in which you started. There is a very real possibility that your actions facilitated some of the things that you have already tried to stop (and possibly fail in doing so) or at least pave the way for them to occur. That isn’t about seeing the other person’s point of view, that is just plain twisted.

And let’s talk about the quests themselves. Some of them are well written, engaging and funny/sad at turns. In fact I would say that, in general, ESO has some of the best quest writing I have seen in any game, especially any MMO. However, the times when there is bad writing or bad scripting become even more obvious when you have seen a similar quest done much between elsewhere in the same game.
I have two examples of quests that I regarded as having howlingly bad errors recently but since those explanations are long I won’t include them here unless asked.

So what should have happened? Yes, feel free to give us something akin to Cadwell’s Silver and Gold but put some thought into it. Keep the main story on rails if you must but:

1) If you are approaching this in terms of being a possible alternate reality then let the knowledge we have affect our choices. Give extra dialogue options and trees based on the events that happened in our own Faction. It might not get to affect the final outcome but expecting my character to react in exactly the same fashion to saving the shipyards of the Covenant as a both a fresh-faced Covenant newbie and as someone who has seen what happened when the Lion’s landed at Davon’s Watch? Absolute and utter insanity.

2) If you are approach this in terms of following on after the events in Coldharbour then allow us to retain our affiliation while doing so. If we have to help these people then let us help them on our terms. Let us only work towards the downfall of the daedric forces arrayed against us, rather than strengthening the armies that may, ultimately, march off to slaughter our own loved ones. As it is, the situation even feels lazy.