Opinions on definition of Pay to Win

Kuettbullen · March 2015

DISCLAIMER: I don't want/intend to turn this into a hate thread and please keep that in mind if you post a reply!

Hi!
With alot of "X is Pay to win! Don't put it in the game!!" threads lately I want to know what everyone conciders P2W and I'll try to explain my point of view as thoroughly as I can in this post.

First and foremost the EXP potions I think they arent P2W, because I know it might cause that some people are SLIGHTLY ahead in champion levels I don't think it will be anything major. My reasoning for that is even if you dont have the EXP potion you can still reach the same champion level as someone who is using the potion as without, though it's obviously going to take more time. Quite alot of people simply don't have the alot of time to spend on the game to really get their champion levels up. Consequently there will be some of the high-end min-maxing people that will use it to reach new heights that just some other people have a very hard time reaching. Still I dont concider it P2W.

I've also seen some threads about changing class/race. If hypothetically ZOS implements a race changing feature in the crown store it will neither be a "gamebreaking" nor "P2W" feature. Because you're not paying to (for example) get a set of armor that is better than the best crafted/dropped in the game. Though a class changing feature to much to ask no matter if you are for or against it, simply because in such a game as ESO changing class on a whim will actually create imbalance issues and people will switch back and forth between classes because class X is flavor of the month. Also restrictions on race change (quite obvious but it needs to be said), if you are in faction X you should only be able to change between the races in that faction unless you have the any race for any faction feature unlocked.

I dont concider things to be P2W unless they create significant imbalance issues or if there are items/skills that you cant obtain anywhere else other then the ingame shop.

Do you agree or disagree with the examples and reasons above? Please respond and motivate why you think that way.

tiamak · March 2015

I guess there are two legitimate readings of the phrase "pay to win":

You're not payin'? Well, then you're not winning!
You're payin'? Well, then you're winning!

According to the first reading, spending real cash is a necessary condition on winning the game, whatever the latter might mean in an MMORPG. According to the second reading, spending real cash is a sufficient condition on winning the game.

What might winning in an MMORPG mean? Here are two suggestions:

Doing well way above average in PvP, i.e. dying much less and killing much more often than the average player in your level segment.
Completing end game content in PvE.

With that conception of "winning", I doubt that we will ever see P2W articles according to the first reading in the crown store. The only candidates for P2W articles in that sense would have to be items that have a significant impact on ingame performance and cannot be received ingame by any means. If such stuff turned up there, however, that would be a serious issue, most likely a deal breaker for many players. It would certainly not conform to the proclaimed only-convenience-and-fluff-items policy. Neither potions, repair kits, mounts and pets, nor the imperial upgrade seem to be necessary for winning.

Furthermore, I doubt that there can be P2W articles with respect to the second reading. After all, experience and skill do matter in PvP and PvE. Stuff which would be sufficient to win the game would have to be strong enough to compensate an overall lack of skill, something like the "Breastplate of Zero Pain" or the "Dagger of Infinite Sorrow".

As you can see, my conception of P2W is rather narrow. Hence, I'm not worried about the crown store.

starkerealm · March 2015

Kuettbullen wrote: »

First and foremost the EXP potions I think they arent P2W, because I know it might cause that some people are SLIGHTLY ahead in champion levels I don't think it will be anything major. My reasoning for that is even if you dont have the EXP potion you can still reach the same champion level as someone who is using the potion as without, though it's obviously going to take more time. Quite alot of people simply don't have the alot of time to spend on the game to really get their champion levels up. Consequently there will be some of the high-end min-maxing people that will use it to reach new heights that just some other people have a very hard time reaching. Still I dont concider it P2W.

Potions I'm iffy on. In a capped system, where you hit max level and it's over? I agree. If the Champion System didn't exist, then I'd agree with you 100% that XP pots aren't pay to win in any way shape or form.

The problem is: right now ESO is effectively an uncapped system. You keep accruing CP until you hit 3600, and that's far enough out that a +50% CP pot for one grinder will give them a direct bonus over someone who did not. It might not be a significant bonus at the outset, but over time it will stack up.

If XP boosters were something that existed in game for gold, then I'd worry a lot less about it. And, as it stands, a lot of this also applies to characters with Rings of Mara (I've got 1 and an unused pledge), and to ESO+ members. But, the +50% is a pretty huge jump from those.

EDIT: If it turns out the XP booster applies after the CP gains are calculated, then I'd say they aren't pay to win. Because eventually you hit Vet 14 and it's over. But, given the Vet ranks are slated to go, I'd be really surprised if the XP potions don't also affect CP gain.

Kuettbullen wrote: »

I've also seen some threads about changing class/race. If hypothetically ZOS implements a race changing feature in the crown store it will neither be a "gamebreaking" nor "P2W" feature. Because you're not paying to (for example) get a set of armor that is better than the best crafted/dropped in the game. Though a class changing feature to much to ask no matter if you are for or against it, simply because in such a game as ESO changing class on a whim will actually create imbalance issues and people will switch back and forth between classes because class X is flavor of the month. Also restrictions on race change (quite obvious but it needs to be said), if you are in faction X you should only be able to change between the races in that faction unless you have the any race for any faction feature unlocked.

To a certain extent, I don't think Race Change options are a good idea, but not because they're Pay to Win.

Having a race change option in the Crown Store would incentivize ZoS to screw with race balance. The immediate example would be the Argonians. The changes to their passives in 1.6 have raised a fairly substantial racket on these boards, because players have felt that their race pick was devalued.

If you add the ability to "buy out" of a nerf like that, you're actually incentivizing ZoS to constantly tweak racial modifiers, effectively forcing players into a cycle of jumping between races depending on what the FotM is after the last round of "rebalances."

I don't expect ZoS to engage in that kind of behavior, but I also wouldn't want to tempt them that way.

I do think additional character slots would be a better alternative, with some kind of Mentoring function where you can pass some of your XP off of vet characters onto newly created ones. (Not as a Crown Store transaction, just as a normal game feature.) To allow for players to get characters of other races up to snuff. But... just a flat race change? Not so much.

I will say, right now, I haven't seen anything that I'd class as pay to win. If the XP boosters make it into game as is, then I'd worry.

asteldian · March 2015

For me personally, being able to buy items that allows you to bypass challenging content in the game.
For example, Crown store selling Master weapons to me would be unacceptable. In order to obtain them you need to hone your skills, rotations and teamwork (at least for vr14 ones). If you can buy it, you cheapen the achievement of earning it and also make the item accessible to those with money while others cannot get it.
Xp does not concern me, yes people will gain power sooner, but all that involves is time anyway. There are plenty of people even if they had 3600 CP I would not take to vet DSA because they would be unable to do it. If they could buy the items that would cause issue with me.

ItsGlaive · March 2015

I'd say pay 2 win is where paying real money provides some kind of advantage to the player, that simple.

So in the example of EXP potions. You buy them, you accrue exp faster and therefore (this is the bit that's causing all the fuss) you accrue champion points quicker.

Because champion points provide a competitive advantage in the passives they unlock, you are buying a competitive advantage over other players. But the bit that sticks the most in people's throats is that the reality is, if they wish to keep up on a CP front, they will feel obligated to also pay for these potions.

If the extra exp the potions granted weren't tied to CP, no one would care. I certainly wouldn't.

starkerealm · March 2015

Xabien wrote: »

I'd say pay 2 win is where paying real money provides some kind of advantage to the player, that simple.

So in the example of EXP potions. You buy them, you accrue exp faster and therefore (this is the bit that's causing all the fuss) you accrue champion points quicker.

Because champion points provide a competitive advantage in the passives they unlock, you are buying a competitive advantage over other players. But the bit that sticks the most in people's throats is that the reality is, if they wish to keep up on a CP front, they will feel obligated to also pay for these potions.

If the extra exp the potions granted weren't tied to CP, no one would care. I certainly wouldn't.

Yeah, again... it's the Champion system that causes problems for the XP boosters.

If ZoS comes out and says, "no, these potions only affect leveling, then... you know? I'll be happy with that. They can't be consumed by a level 50 (after Vet ranks are gone), they don't increase CP gain and can't be consumed by a Vet 14 (before then)... that works.

WhimsyDragon · March 2015

Kuettbullen wrote: »

I dont concider things to be P2W unless they create significant imbalance issues or if there are items/skills that you cant obtain anywhere else other then the ingame shop.

I think a lot of folks are concerned about everyone working just as hard as each other, earning their right to a certain level of prestige and gaining skills through practice. People will always disagree with what constitutes an unfair advantage, but for me it has to be significant to call it P2W. Minor consumable boosts and other convenience items don't really bother me. I don't mind the idea of an item being unique to a store (which always happens) as long as it's not a huge advantage over other players who have no means to earn something comparable.

tiamak · March 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

The problem is: right now ESO is effectively an uncapped system. You keep accruing CP until you hit 3600, and that's far enough out that a +50% CP pot for one grinder will give them a direct bonus over someone who did not. It might not be a significant bonus at the outset, but over time it will stack up.

Can someone please explain to me, why the champion system is effectively uncapped? I always thought that with those sever diminishing returns, kicking in somewhere around 20 CPs spent, it would be exactly the other way round: de facto no hard cap, but effectively soft capped.

starkerealm · March 2015

tiamak wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

The problem is: right now ESO is effectively an uncapped system. You keep accruing CP until you hit 3600, and that's far enough out that a +50% CP pot for one grinder will give them a direct bonus over someone who did not. It might not be a significant bonus at the outset, but over time it will stack up.

Can someone please explain to me, why the champion system is effectively uncapped? I always thought that with those sever diminishing returns, kicking in somewhere around 20 CPs spent, it would be exactly the other way round: de facto no hard cap, but effectively soft capped.

Effectively as in, reaching the cap is unlikely in the extreme. Unless something changes seriously with the game, and barring exploits, it'll probably be two or three years of heavy grinding before we see a Champion Rank 3600 character. So, any XP earned after hitting VR1 contributes to a system that simply keeps paying out in additional bonuses over time.

In contrast to a system that simply gets you to a specific level cap sooner. Because once you're there everyone's on a roughly even playing field anyway.

EDIT: Sorry, the second thing is, at higher levels of the CP system, the progression becomes nearly linear. You pay a CP you get a .2% boost. It starts out diminishing but it flattens out pretty quickly.

Muizer · March 2015

I suppose you could say a situation where you can only advance through gameplay and the situation where the amount of money spent completely determines your strength are two ends of a spectrum.

That means that discussion whether a game is P2W or not P2W is really presenting as black and white what in effect is a grey area.

The problem is that as soon as you start selling anything that helps you to progress in the game, you've stepped on a slippery slope. We first had 10% boosts in the subscription. Now we get 50% in a potion? Even if that doesn't land us on the "pay to win" side of the spectrum, we're moving in that direction.

In a game where it takes months and months to level a character you also have to think ahead: If you will still be leveling your character 6 months from now, how far will we have progressed towards the P2W end of the spectrum by then?

All we have are assurances that the crown store will only sell cosmetic and convenience items. However, "convenience" is very flexible term. Even if the crown store only sells what could also be obtained through gameplay you could effectively take that a long way towards pay to win. That is, if those items would take a disproportionate amount of time to obtain through gameplay.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO · March 2015

Something that gives someone an advantage that is NOT available in game. Such as XP potions that can not be crafted but are instead sold via the guild store.

ItsGlaive · March 2015

kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »

Something that gives someone an advantage that is NOT available in game. Such as XP potions that can not be crafted but are instead sold via the guild store.

What if they can be crafted but the ingredients are incredibly rare? I'd still say that whiffs of P2W because paying cash becomes the preferable route by a long shot. Similar to the thunderstruck tree situation in Archeage.

VincentBlanquin · March 2015

dont wanna write about p2w, but

if you are casual, you probably dont care about your power and performance so you dont buy xp potions

if you are active player, you probably care about your power and performance and much more inclined to buy xp potions

when its too much difference beteween characters powers, its bad for the game, which have only open pvp events. if pvp is instanced, you can wait to instance end if you are against overpowered and start new instance. in open pvp you can only quit...

michael_bimson · March 2015

My personal definition of P2W is quite narrow, as others have said above. To me it is spending real money for an advantage unavailable to players who choose not to spend real money. Therefore I don't consider convenience items a P2W item. What I would consider P2W is paying for specific new items that are superior to what is available as lootable/craftable in game.

However, that said, the change from subscription to B2P will most likely lead to more items in the cash store heading toward that imaginary line where they are P2W.

Prior to Tamriel Unlimited (and simplistically) you could argue the player base can be divided by how much time they have to play. The more time you have, the more likely you are to be at the top end of the player base, the less time you have, the more likely you will be at the bottom. This, I would argue, was tied into the subscription system. You pay a flat rate and regulate your own time spent in the game, everyone is treated the same economically.

However by opening up the real money store and changing to B2P ZOS have added a new financial dynamic to the game where people can spend money instead of time. Now there are two dynamics promoting players. Time and Money. Players with only Time will fall toward the middle levels, Players with only Money will rise toward the middle levels, Players with no Money and no Time will be at the bottom of the pile and Players with both Time and Money will rise to the top. This rebalancing of the player base is already happening because of the XP potions and is not necessarily a bad thing, ultimately more players will be competitive, but the top tier will change.

The crux comes when the XP potions bring in more profit than the cosmetic items (buy a cosmetic item once, buy XP potions repeatedly, its going to happen). How ZOS handle this is the issue, will they be happy with their income, or will they look for other items which will add new revenue streams? How about a bigger, better, longer XP potion? How about existing items in the Vet Dungeons? How about items from the trials? We're creeping closer to the P2W line (although I still wouldn't consider these to be P2W because it is opening up existing items to players who might otherwise leave the game when they realise the games expects them to invest more time than they have to progress (although if ZOS went down this route I would much prefer they sell a different version of the trial or vet dungeon etc so players would still have to work at gaining the items)). At some point the line will be crossed.

TLDR: We've already started down the road to P2W , whether you have a narrow or wide definition of P2W, it is just a matter of time.

ItsGlaive · March 2015

michael_bimson wrote: »

My personal definition of P2W is quite narrow, as others have said above. To me it is spending real money for an advantage unavailable to players who choose not to spend real money. Therefore I don't consider convenience items a P2W item. What I would consider P2W is paying for specific new items that are superior to what is available as lootable/craftable in game.

However, that said, the change from subscription to B2P will most likely lead to more items in the cash store heading toward that imaginary line where they are P2W.

Prior to Tamriel Unlimited (and simplistically) you could argue the player base can be divided by how much time they have to play. The more time you have, the more likely you are to be at the top end of the player base, the less time you have, the more likely you will be at the bottom. This, I would argue, was tied into the subscription system. You pay a flat rate and regulate your own time spent in the game, everyone is treated the same economically.

However by opening up the real money store and changing to B2P ZOS have added a new financial dynamic to the game where people can spend money instead of time. Now there are two dynamics promoting players. Time and Money. Players with only Time will fall toward the middle levels, Players with only Money will rise toward the middle levels, Players with no Money and no Time will be at the bottom of the pile and Players with both Time and Money will rise to the top. This rebalancing of the player base is already happening because of the XP potions and is not necessarily a bad thing, ultimately more players will be competitive, but the top tier will change.

The crux comes when the XP potions bring in more profit than the cosmetic items (buy a cosmetic item once, buy XP potions repeatedly, its going to happen). How ZOS handle this is the issue, will they be happy with their income, or will they look for other items which will add new revenue streams? How about a bigger, better, longer XP potion? How about existing items in the Vet Dungeons? How about items from the trials? We're creeping closer to the P2W line (although I still wouldn't consider these to be P2W because it is opening up existing items to players who might otherwise leave the game when they realise the games expects them to invest more time than they have to progress (although if ZOS went down this route I would much prefer they sell a different version of the trial or vet dungeon etc so players would still have to work at gaining the items)). At some point the line will be crossed.

TLDR: We've already started down the road to P2W , whether you have a narrow or wide definition of P2W, it is just a matter of time.

So to clarify, because the EXP pots are superior to anything available in game, and because they allow you to accrue CP at a faster rate, would you consider that P2W?

Forget the EXP element for a moment, I'm asking specifically about the benefits of additional CP accrued at a 50% faster rate.

DDuke · March 2015

Since when has P2W meant multiple things?

P2W=Pay to Win, it's that simple really.

Player A plays 6 hours a day and is as competent as Player B
Player B plays 6 hours a day and purchases potions, making him have 50% more Champion Powers, which equals to significant amounts of power.
Player B thus has a huge advantage over Player A, and wins because they were equally competent. What caused Player B to win? $$$. Pay to Win, aka P2W.

Playing equal amounts of time with someone else who uses potions, you will never reach the same spot as that person. That is simply a symptom of having an infinite leveling progress.

That makes the P2W not be "short term" P2W (e.g. armour and weapons you can find in game, because "you'll get them eventually"), but just flat out, "long term" (infinite) P2W.

I could have a thing or two to say about people that think XP Boosters in a MMO with "infinite" levels aren't P2W, but I doubt the moderators would like that.

Crica · March 2015

At this point in the game, ALL subscribers are paying to win =P

Majic · March 2015

Pay-To-Win (P2W)

adj.

1. Anything I think is pay-to-win.

kevlarto_ESO · March 2015

no stat fuzzy bunny slippers LOL

a sword of a thousand truths

and really what do you win ? /shrug

Kuettbullen · March 2015

@DDuke

DDuke wrote: »

Since when has P2W meant multiple things?

P2W=Pay to Win, it's that simple really.

Refer to this post by Tiamak

tiamak wrote: »

I guess there are two legitimate readings of the phrase "pay to win":
You're not payin'? Well, then you're not winning!

You're payin'? Well, then you're winning!

According to the first reading, spending real cash is a necessary condition on winning the game, whatever the latter might mean in an MMORPG. According to the second reading, spending real cash is a sufficient condition on winning the game.

What might winning in an MMORPG mean? Here are two suggestions:
Doing well way above average in PvP, i.e. dying much less and killing much more often than the average player in your level segment.

Completing end game content in PvE.

With that conception of "winning", I doubt that we will ever see P2W articles according to the first reading in the crown store. The only candidates for P2W articles in that sense would have to be items that have a significant impact on ingame performance and cannot be received ingame by any means. If such stuff turned up there, however, that would be a serious issue, most likely a deal breaker for many players. It would certainly not conform to the proclaimed only-convenience-and-fluff-items policy. Neither potions, repair kits, mounts and pets, nor the imperial upgrade seem to be necessary for winning.

Furthermore, I doubt that there can be P2W articles with respect to the second reading. After all, experience and skill do matter in PvP and PvE. Stuff which would be sufficient to win the game would have to be strong enough to compensate an overall lack of skill, something like the "Breastplate of Zero Pain" or the "Dagger of Infinite Sorrow".

As you can see, my conception of P2W is rather narrow. Hence, I'm not worried about the crown store.

DDuke wrote: »

Player A plays 6 hours a day and is as competent as Player B
Player B plays 6 hours a day and purchases potions, making him have 50% more Champion Powers, which equals to significant amounts of power.
Player B thus has a huge advantage over Player A, and wins because they were equally competent. What caused Player B to win? $$$. Pay to Win, aka P2W.

That is exactly the point with my statements in the first post. If Player A and Player B are equally competent both players will still have an equal chance of winning. Because how the game works it promotes teamplay and skill over such small and petty stats. Champion Points are designed in such a way that they give an EDGE not insta-win.

tiamak wrote: »

Stuff which would be sufficient to win the game would have to be strong enough to compensate an overall lack of skill, something like the "Breastplate of Zero Pain" or the "Dagger of Infinite Sorrow".

That is P2W in my book.

Uviryth · March 2015

To determine if a game is pay2win I use a simple formula.
I ask 2 questions:

1: Do dollars make your character stronger than GoldCoins? (like ingame unobtainable items)
2: Do dollars make you spare time in Real Life? (Like EXPboosts or ingameitems that are so expensive it takes you weeks to collect the money/materials)

If 1 or 2 can be anwered with yes, then I consider a game p2w, if not its f2p/p2p

Disclaimer: Be aware that this is MY OPINION and MY DEFINITION of the term pay to win. I in no way claim its the undeniable and undisputable truth!

DDuke · March 2015

Kuettbullen wrote: »

@DDuke

DDuke wrote: »

Since when has P2W meant multiple things?

P2W=Pay to Win, it's that simple really.

Refer to this post by Tiamak

tiamak wrote: »

I guess there are two legitimate readings of the phrase "pay to win":
You're not payin'? Well, then you're not winning!

You're payin'? Well, then you're winning!

According to the first reading, spending real cash is a necessary condition on winning the game, whatever the latter might mean in an MMORPG. According to the second reading, spending real cash is a sufficient condition on winning the game.

What might winning in an MMORPG mean? Here are two suggestions:
Doing well way above average in PvP, i.e. dying much less and killing much more often than the average player in your level segment.

Completing end game content in PvE.

With that conception of "winning", I doubt that we will ever see P2W articles according to the first reading in the crown store. The only candidates for P2W articles in that sense would have to be items that have a significant impact on ingame performance and cannot be received ingame by any means. If such stuff turned up there, however, that would be a serious issue, most likely a deal breaker for many players. It would certainly not conform to the proclaimed only-convenience-and-fluff-items policy. Neither potions, repair kits, mounts and pets, nor the imperial upgrade seem to be necessary for winning.

Furthermore, I doubt that there can be P2W articles with respect to the second reading. After all, experience and skill do matter in PvP and PvE. Stuff which would be sufficient to win the game would have to be strong enough to compensate an overall lack of skill, something like the "Breastplate of Zero Pain" or the "Dagger of Infinite Sorrow".

As you can see, my conception of P2W is rather narrow. Hence, I'm not worried about the crown store.

DDuke wrote: »

Player A plays 6 hours a day and is as competent as Player B
Player B plays 6 hours a day and purchases potions, making him have 50% more Champion Powers, which equals to significant amounts of power.
Player B thus has a huge advantage over Player A, and wins because they were equally competent. What caused Player B to win? $$$. Pay to Win, aka P2W.

That is exactly the point with my statements in the first post. If Player A and Player B are equally competent both players will still have an equal chance of winning. Because how the game works it promotes teamplay and skill over such small and petty stats. Champion Points are designed in such a way that they give an EDGE not insta-win.

tiamak wrote: »

Stuff which would be sufficient to win the game would have to be strong enough to compensate an overall lack of skill, something like the "Breastplate of Zero Pain" or the "Dagger of Infinite Sorrow".

That is P2W in my book.

Sorry, but you are just wrong. This is not just arguing about opinions, this is arguing about facts.

That competitive edge attained by $$$ is exactly what P2W refers to.

Player A & B do not have equal chance of winning if one of them has a (significant or not) edge.

Of course there is a chance Player B loses because of bad luck or whatever, but that chance is smaller than Player A's.

To not think money had an impact on the outcome (aka P2W) is just lying to yourself.

Also regarding to your point about game promoting "teamplay and skill over such small and petty stats", I will have to assume you aren't properly informed about the difference on power 50% more XP grants via Champion System.

This is the difference between 750 & 500 CPs (50%) for a stamina build:

-5.3% Stamina Costs Spells/Abilities
+4.5% Stamina Regeneration
+5.1% more Healing Reduction
+5.8% Light/Heavy Attack Damage
+9% Physical Critical Strike damage
+5.9% Armour Penetration
+1.2% Spell Resistance
-6.9% DoT damage taken
-5% Poison/Disease/Magic damage taken
-5% Flame/Frost/Shock damage taken.

When killed, heal Allies within 8m by X
50% reduced Gathering times
Better items from Treasure Chests
15% chance to return X damage to attacker when blocking a melee attack, 5 second cooldown

How is that any different than purchasing the "Breastplate of Zero Pain" or "Dagger of Infinite Sorrow"?

In fact, rarely even in other P2W MMOs do you see such power disparity granted by $$$ as I linked above.

And about teamplay... nothing prevents an entire team from being made of P2W warriors.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · March 2015

Kuettbullen wrote: »

Do you agree or disagree with the examples and reasons above? Please respond and motivate why you think that way.

In PVE there is no 'win' so you raise a false dichotomy in that context .. and as I don't PVP so I have no interest one way or the other.

DDuke · March 2015

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Kuettbullen wrote: »

Do you agree or disagree with the examples and reasons above? Please respond and motivate why you think that way.

In PVE there is no 'win' so you raise a false dichotomy in that context .. and as I don't PVP so I have no interest one way or the other.

Couldn't be further from the truth.

In PvE, winning is overcoming the challenges put into the game. Difficult bosses & dungeon, getting achievements... all are winning.

You can even make it competitive, and it becomes about who can kill the hardest bosses first, before others. About who are truly the best players.

There's even a whole documentary made about the competitive scene of MMO gaming: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2093215/

Ley · March 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Sorry, but you are just wrong. This is not just arguing about opinions, this is arguing about facts.

Here we go again.

Fact of the matter is, people are entitled to their own opinion of what they consider to be p2w and what they don't. You disagreeing with someone doesn't necessarily make them wrong, it makes their opinion different than yours.

I imagine this thread will turn into a exp potion argument and eventually be closed but enjoy it while it lasts!

starkerealm · March 2015

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Kuettbullen wrote: »

Do you agree or disagree with the examples and reasons above? Please respond and motivate why you think that way.

In PVE there is no 'win' so you raise a false dichotomy in that context .. and as I don't PVP so I have no interest one way or the other.

The problem comes in when content is later balanced for the players who are paying. I've seen this with a couple MMOs in the past. "You can't have Pay to Win outside of PvP," but, then the new content rolls around, and it's technically completable by the non-paying players, but those who have paid up can sail through it, and then complain on the forums about how it's too easy, feeding into a vicious cycle.

DDuke wrote: »

In fact, rarely even in other P2W MMOs do you see such power disparity granted by $$$ as I linked above.

Given the amount of money it would cost to cause that amount of disparity? No, that's about on the mark. Maybe a little better than some. Still, not a good situation.

Sallington · March 2015

Anything bought with real money that gives an increase to a character's stats or power, either directly or indirectly.

Hortator Mopa · March 2015

Any advantage over another player gained through currency that is external. Does not mater how big or small. Having a bigger bank does not give you a power advantage over another player. Having the ability to gain faster CP to invest in power over another player is p2w.

You dont have to "win" to have it p2w. You just have to had a external currency increase your power over another player..

Welcome to the end of the good eso.

Kuettbullen · March 2015

Balance is key in all aspects of the game not just items whether it is from Crown store, crafting or drop. Though I understand ZoS from wanting to put things in the crown store that people wants to buy because they need money to further develop the game and keeping the servers running.

I think that a company should try to stay away from any kind or form that players can perceive as P2W, but at the same time I want the company to get enough money to keep the game running and I dont think having only cosmetic items and other similar things will keep the game up in the long run.

So I want to pose another question to everyone. What do you think would help keep the game running while maintaining B2P (no subscription) and able to release new content at a fairly good rate?

whvice · March 2015

the more you dismiss things that are in essence P2W as NOT P2W (because of your godly experience/knowledge/legal expertise on the meaning of words/ignorance/whatever), the more companies can get away with it and start throwing more variations of stuff like this at the players

Dubhliam · March 2015

To all of you saying that Exp is P2W:
Take a look at Cabal online.
Now THAT is where I encountered my first P2W cash store.
The whole game revolves around grinding dungeons to accumulate upgrade stones (for upgrading gear).
The more you upgrade your gear, the more stones you need to upgrade it. Oh yeah, and it becomes increasingly more difficult to upgrade it. Oh yeah, did I mention if you fail at the upgrade it downgrades (sometimes even -2).
Needless to say it is very difficult and VERY expensive to have the best gear (upgraded to +15).
It is, in fact, so difficult that every time someone upgrades an item to +15, every player can see a system notification of it.
Then they introduced a cash shop item that could prevent the downgrading at the failure of upgrading. Each time you fail, simply one of that item is expended.
A few $ later, everybody with a credit card had themselves +15 gear.
Impossible to beat in PvP, even if they were unskilled.
Time & effort spent: ZERO.
So quit your whining because somebody will get something 10% faster than you!
They still need to spend time and effort for it.