Why I think PVP Enforcers would be a bad idea...

Dru1076 · March 2015

This is something I am seeing getting asked for... And I have read the official announcement regarding the Justice System where ZOS say PVP elements like enforcers are in the works. I think its a bad idea, and for several reasons.

A lot of us don't like PVP, for various reasons...and it will give skilled PVP players a huge advantage over people like me. How? I will give an example. Say you are sneaking around, waiting for an NPC to turn away so you can steal some stuff... Only along comes a V14 pvp expert who quietly laughs at you and just steals the stuff right in front of you and the NPC. In comes the enforcer, who is then brutality hit with a Jesus Beam and quickly taken out. They wouldn't have to sneak around at all if they can two hit kill enforcers, and they only have to fight their way to the fence to cash in. See how the system would become unbalanced for people who suck at PVP?

As for the "Don't steal or get caught" argument...the easiest way to get motifs and recipes and lots of stuff is looting in towns. Motifs are already super expensive items...I saw a purple motif going for 100000 in the chat window the other day. Now... Having the system there with an option between invincible guards or enforcers sounds good, and I am open to that idea though it would still leave skilled PVP with a big leg up when dealing with the law. Invincible guards are painful, no doubt...but at least the system is fair for everyone.

Please leave PVP out of the PVE zones... Let bounty hunters have their fun in Cyrodil and the Imperial City (when it is released)

Thymos · March 2015

That's funny about the 100k motif. I'm sure someone bought it, too, right?

ZeroInspiration · March 2015

Part of committing crimes is dealing with the consequences. It seems to me a lot of players want to commit crimes without consequences seeing how much complaining you hear about the guards. I'm not a PvP player at all (haven't even been to Cyrodiil yet and I've been playing since launch) but I want the enforcers to be implemented.

Gidorick · March 2015

Will a player character witnessing a crime cause the player character committing the crime to become wanted in this type of system or will Enforcers have to wait for the thief to be caught by an NPC and become wanted?

Majic · March 2015

Judge Dread

If the PvP part of the justice system is implemented poorly -- for example, making it so the entrances to every outlaws refuge in the game are perma-camped by crowds of player guards ready to instagank anyone trying to get in or out of them with a bounty -- then it could effectively kill the justice system.

However, I think it's quite possible to implement it in a way that would make the justice system even better, even from the point of view of players who don't like PvP.

Which way it will go remains to be seen, but based on what I've seen so far, I am cautiously optimistic that ZOS will do it right.

If not, well, I'm sure they will get plenty of feedback about it.

jnjdun_ESO · March 2015

This one bets her crusty socks that this will never come to pass.

Rest easy li'l PvE'rs.….ssshhhhh now, s'ok

IcyDeadPeople · March 2015

I imagine if there is some gold incentive involved, there will be strong PVP players on the guard side as well.

Could be lots of fun if there are battles between multiple outlaws and multiple guards. Not looking forward to getting ganked by @Araxleon.

.

Dru1076 · March 2015

jnjdun_ESO wrote: »

This one bets her crusty socks that this will never come to pass.

Rest easy li'l PvE'rs.….ssshhhhh now, s'ok

And that goes toward a point i didn't want to make. Some PVP players look down their noses at people who want to just PVE.. That can really suck the fun out of a game for me. This is the sort of thing that makes me dread PVP going global.

lihentian · March 2015

agree.. if they implement pvp into the justice system, it will likely means low level can't steal or they will get pwn by high level..

very likely high level character will camp at low level area to kill low level for profit.. which is not good for the game nor anyone...

bowmanz607 · March 2015

I think your looking at it wrong. You can only be attacked by an enforcer if you are wanted by the law. It is entirely possible for you to sneak around and steal things and kill people without being seen and therefore have no bounty lvl. If you are skilled and patient at sneaking then you wont have a bounty lvl and therefore no player can touch you. Moreover, and this is part is just pure speculation, but it would make sense that the only time that you could be attacked by another player is if u have a bounty lvl high enough that guards attack you on site. I would imagine that if guards wont attack you on site and simply ask you to pay your bounty, then a player also can not attack you. the point is, a player cant just watch you steal something and then attack you.

Dru1076 · March 2015

The point I was trying to make is that highly skilled PVPers wouldn't need to sneak around. They'd probably prefer not to. That's my main reason for concern. Skilled PVPers would gain a huge advantage.

Taleof2Cities · March 2015

lihentian wrote: »

agree.. if they implement pvp into the justice system, it will likely means low level can't steal or they will get pwn by high level..

very likely high level character will camp at low level area to kill low level for profit.. which is not good for the game nor anyone...

You could have the enforcer not be more than 5 levels above the intended outlaw for there to be any reward (monetary or XP) ... similar to low level loot.

... just brainstorming ideas here ...

Dru1076 · March 2015

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

lihentian wrote: »

agree.. if they implement pvp into the justice system, it will likely means low level can't steal or they will get pwn by high level..

very likely high level character will camp at low level area to kill low level for profit.. which is not good for the game nor anyone...

You could have the enforcer not be more than 5 levels above the intended outlaw for there to be any reward (monetary or XP) ... similar to low level loot.

... just brainstorming ideas here ...

That actually sounds like a really reasonable idea to me.

bowmanz607 · March 2015

I think I see what your saying. but at the same time why would a low level want to pick a fight with a higher lvl. that is dumb even in pvp. forget if they are skilled or not a big lvl difference is enough. you should stick to fights that are realistic. also, if they just steal from an npc w/o sneaking and a guard sees, then that is trouble for anyone. Idc what lvl you are you are runnig or dieing from the guard. at that point a even a low lvl toon can be effective against a higher lvl cause the higher lvl has to worry about the guard. at the very least you will prvent that person from escaping the guards and help the guard to take that person down.

lihentian · March 2015

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

lihentian wrote: »

agree.. if they implement pvp into the justice system, it will likely means low level can't steal or they will get pwn by high level..

very likely high level character will camp at low level area to kill low level for profit.. which is not good for the game nor anyone...

You could have the enforcer not be more than 5 levels above the intended outlaw for there to be any reward (monetary or XP) ... similar to low level loot.

... just brainstorming ideas here ...

well.. usually be able to pwn noob is already rewarding enough... at least from past experience there are always certain percent of the population enjoy pray one the weak~~

what we could do though.. is when player reach over 1k bounty(you can never get this much from stealing).. npc will assign quest to search & kill the murderer.. which could work.. but then again.. player can teleport to shrine.. or stay in the hideout.. not sure if it will be efficient..

Videonauth · March 2015

Dru1076 wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

lihentian wrote: »

agree.. if they implement pvp into the justice system, it will likely means low level can't steal or they will get pwn by high level..

very likely high level character will camp at low level area to kill low level for profit.. which is not good for the game nor anyone...

You could have the enforcer not be more than 5 levels above the intended outlaw for there to be any reward (monetary or XP) ... similar to low level loot.

... just brainstorming ideas here ...

That actually sounds like a really reasonable idea to me.

Whilst we are brainstorming here. Just scale the enforcer to te culprits level in the moment they engage in a fight.

Cagro · March 2015

I do not understand how people not get bored playing against the AI. I am not too good at PVP in this game but love the unpredictability and excitement of it. The AI is just waiting for you to kill it. Against other players you have to really watch your back. I am just leveling up so I can play more in Cyrodiil and hopefully one day against other players in the justice system otherwise I would have quited LONG AGO.

nightwalkerrobin_ESO · March 2015

I would hope that ZOS has thought about all this and is still working on ways to make the system doable. One thing is that they would also need to ensure that Enforcers could not fight in the Outlaw Dens. Imagine having the elite mercs in the Outlaw Dens just to attack Enforcers onsite if they enter.

Leeric · March 2015

Dru1076 wrote: »

This is something I am seeing getting asked for... And I have read the official announcement regarding the Justice System where ZOS say PVP elements like enforcers are in the works. I think its a bad idea, and for several reasons.

A lot of us don't like PVP, for various reasons...and it will give skilled PVP players a huge advantage over people like me. How? I will give an example. Say you are sneaking around, waiting for an NPC to turn away so you can steal some stuff... Only along comes a V14 pvp expert who quietly laughs at you and just steals the stuff right in front of you and the NPC. In comes the enforcer, who is then brutality hit with a Jesus Beam and quickly taken out. They wouldn't have to sneak around at all if they can two hit kill enforcers, and they only have to fight their way to the fence to cash in. See how the system would become unbalanced for people who suck at PVP?

As for the "Don't steal or get caught" argument...the easiest way to get motifs and recipes and lots of stuff is looting in towns. Motifs are already super expensive items...I saw a purple motif going for 100000 in the chat window the other day. Now... Having the system there with an option between invincible guards or enforcers sounds good, and I am open to that idea though it would still leave skilled PVP with a big leg up when dealing with the law. Invincible guards are painful, no doubt...but at least the system is fair for everyone.

Please leave PVP out of the PVE zones... Let bounty hunters have their fun in Cyrodil and the Imperial City (when it is released)

Your post is 100% bs.
You can farm motifs in other locations, not just towns.
100000 purple motif...yah...right. The fact you even listed that as a reason screams nonsense.

Dru1076 · March 2015

I was bracing myself for trolls. Great to see some good ideas coming. Maybe if we get some more I might be swayed to argue in favour of enforcers. But I'm not sold yet. Scaling the enforcers up or down to within a reasonable level of the perp is good way to stop gankers. I also really liked the idea about only being hunted by enforcers when you get a certain amount of bounty hanging over you. Maybe that's the best idea I've heard yet.

bowmanz607 · March 2015

i personally dont think enforcers should be allowed in outlaw refugees b/c they are acting on behalf of the guards. in fact if they enter the NPC in the refuge should attack them on sight. outlaw refuge guards posted on the outside alos to deter ganking.

RainfeatherUK · March 2015

Leeric wrote: »

Your post is 100% bs.
You can farm motifs in other locations, not just towns.
100000 purple motif...yah...right. The fact you even listed that as a reason screams nonsense.

You mean like any other time a pve carebear opens their mouth? Shocking! Or not, depending on your take lol.

Theres nothing wrong with PvP enforcement, providing its implemented carefully. I actually think ZoS has done pretty well with the system thus far.

Alot of people do want PvP justice (myself and many others @TamrielFoundry included) and despite my disdain for cowards, none of us wish to see it break the game - for any person who plays it.

Theres room for everyone to get something however. If you think otherwise, you're merely thinking of yourself and selfish **** can head to the nearest exit.

Content has to take everyone into consideration. Which is precisely why I hate 'me me me' threads.

bowmanz607 · March 2015

i do have to agree though just cause someone was advertising a purp motif for 100k does not mean someone bought it. I am constantly selling daedric motifs which are the more expensive ones and i have trouble moving them at 30k which is usuall y the minimum. Im not sure if the dwemer motif book is purp but if it is i can see that going for 100k cause each page goes for 6-10k.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · March 2015

completely disagree. you only defence is its not fair you cant steal and be immune to pvp?
there is no need to steal in this game, it is added flavour. adding pvp to justice is great. you dont like it, dont be a thief/ dont enforce the law.
motifs are cosmetic and useless otherwise so complaining about that garners no sympathy from me.

Unbalanced for people who suck at pvp? AvA is mostly group builds, so the majority would need to have different builds around justice anyway, in other words, eveyone will need to cater builds for when they are commiting crime and enforcing the law, cater you build or dont partake.

bowmanz607 · March 2015

for me its a great way to implement dueling between faction members

Dru1076 · March 2015

Leeric wrote: »

Dru1076 wrote: »

This is something I am seeing getting asked for... And I have read the official announcement regarding the Justice System where ZOS say PVP elements like enforcers are in the works. I think its a bad idea, and for several reasons.

A lot of us don't like PVP, for various reasons...and it will give skilled PVP players a huge advantage over people like me. How? I will give an example. Say you are sneaking around, waiting for an NPC to turn away so you can steal some stuff... Only along comes a V14 pvp expert who quietly laughs at you and just steals the stuff right in front of you and the NPC. In comes the enforcer, who is then brutality hit with a Jesus Beam and quickly taken out. They wouldn't have to sneak around at all if they can two hit kill enforcers, and they only have to fight their way to the fence to cash in. See how the system would become unbalanced for people who suck at PVP?

As for the "Don't steal or get caught" argument...the easiest way to get motifs and recipes and lots of stuff is looting in towns. Motifs are already super expensive items...I saw a purple motif going for 100000 in the chat window the other day. Now... Having the system there with an option between invincible guards or enforcers sounds good, and I am open to that idea though it would still leave skilled PVP with a big leg up when dealing with the law. Invincible guards are painful, no doubt...but at least the system is fair for everyone.

Please leave PVP out of the PVE zones... Let bounty hunters have their fun in Cyrodil and the Imperial City (when it is released)

Your post is 100% bs.
You can farm motifs in other locations, not just towns.
100000 purple motif...yah...right. The fact you even listed that as a reason screams nonsense.

And there's the post I was bracing for. Sorry mate... But it was a real thing. Someone was trying to seek the Imperial motif for100k. I don't tell lies. Yes you can farm elsewhere... But it is faster and easier to get them in towns. That is not BS. Now...whether someone paid the 100k i don't know... But i hope not.

Don't accuse me of lying. That is very bad form... And incorrect.

Dru1076 · March 2015

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

completely disagree. you only defence is its not fair you cant steal and be immune to pvp?
there is no need to steal in this game, it is added flavour. adding pvp to justice is great. you dont like it, dont be a thief/ dont enforce the law.
motifs are cosmetic and useless otherwise so complaining about that garners no sympathy from me.

Unbalanced for people who suck at pvp? AvA is mostly group builds, so the majority would need to have different builds around justice anyway, in other words, eveyone will need to cater builds for when they are commiting crime and enforcing the law, cater you build or dont partake.

There are achievements related to motifs, so they are not merely cosmetic. And I am a crafter, so I want them all otherwise I wont be able to make all the stuff I want. Not partaking in stealing is just a ridiculous proposal. It would take forever to get the stuff I need. And it would be unbalanced for people who suck.at pvp if your only solution is don't break the law.

And please, keep your sympathy. I have no need for it.

Dru1076 · March 2015

bowmanz607 wrote: »

for me its a great way to implement dueling between faction members

I hadn't thought of that. Good point.

jircris11 · March 2015

my only issue would be V14s hunting lvl 5s and such. If there is say a 1 lvl higher/lower limit then it would be fine but yea. this is a system that needs careful balancing.

bowmanz607 · March 2015

motifs are more than cosmetic. they are a source of income. I use them to pay for my potions on a weekly basis. they help promote a healthy economy.

Ley · March 2015

I don't think the pvp enforcers were meant to be able to hunt down petty thieves or casual criminals; essentially anyone with a low bounty. Don't quote me on this, but I'm fairly certain I read a post from Zenimax stating that they would only be able to hunt down players with high bounties. I think that if a player willingly racks up a very high bounty, then all bets should be off for them, and other players should be free to hunt them down, by any means available to them; including camping key locations.

On the flip side, if you're trying to be an enforcer, then you're specifically trying to participate in a pvp mechanic of the game and should either learn to be skilful in it or opt not to partake. You don't have to participate in cyrodiil and don't have to participate in law enforcement. I think that the assumption is that those who do participate in either of those, do so intentionally.

It's not like players will be able to just randomly kill other players in pve zones. They will only be able to kill players who have racked up a high enough bounty and unless you attack those players, they can not attack you. If you don't get caught too often stealing, then your bounty should be well below the range at which enforcers can hunt you down.

This is all speculation based on what I've read and heard about the future plans of the justice system but seems like a good mechanic.

Hope that sets your mind at ease.

TLDR: Unless you're a terrible thief and get caught all the time, enforcers can not kill you. As long as you don't attack high bounty criminals, they can not retaliate. You can therefor carry on being a small time thief in peace.