The Champion System and PvP

Rohaus · March 2015

For those whom would prefer to skip past my wall of text, simply scroll down to the end of my post where you will find the points I have highlighted.

Formerly, I played Age of Conan extensively from its release back in 2008 to 2014. It was a wonderful game that was always on the cusp of greatness but remained mediocre in many ways. A game with so much potential, as they say, but fell short of the glory.

Comparatively speaking, ESO is vastly superior game in just about every aspect than AoC ever was. ESO is the game I had wished AoC would have been. I do miss the melee fatalities of AoC and the combat system but will take ESO polish and content over a game that, for the 8 years I played it, continually was a game of potential and nothing more. Even still, the ESO combat system is superb as it is a system which encompasses reaction in the form of blocking, dodging, and defensive measures… knowing when to go offensive with abilities and when to go defensive with counter abilities.

The reason why I bring up AoC is because I fear I have been down this road before with respect to ESO’s newly introduced Champion System. The Champion System is so similar to the Alternate Advancement system found within AoC that it is easy for me to compare. The AA system was introduced back in 2010 with the release of the expansion, Rise of the Godslayer. It quickly became apparent that if one were to succumb and tread down the AA path, it would take a solid 2+ years to obtain all of the AA points within the AA system which was for someone who played quite regularly. What kept people moving along on that treadmill was there being certain AA’s that were just flat out superior to others in every way and once obtained, all the other AA’s were merely passives or ‘just for fun’ abilities. That is the biggest difference when comparing the AA system to the CS system of ESO is that with the AA system you actually got new abilities and or morphed abilities that made the original ability stronger. Still though, it created a gap between new players and veteran players much like what I see the Champion System ultimately becoming down the road.

My primary interest with this post is with regards to PvP. Yes, new content in the form of battlegrounds and arenas would be nice but ultimately what I think many people fail to understand, especially developers, is that for MMO PvP to work, especially Siege / Massive PvP, YOU MUST have a population!!! Certainly, one could argue that new gear and new environments to fight in would keep existing players PvPing and potentially bring in new PvPers. However, without a population, Cyrodiil will obviously become a ghost town. A healthy PvP Player Population is PvP content!

I know it is fun to roflstomp people… but that gets old quickly. I believe that the majority of PvPers, when looking at the subject objectively, will agree that an even playing field is the best route to take so as to encourage new players to stick with it. The only advantage should come from those who have put the time in and understand the mechanics of the game better than someone who is new. The Champion System introduces a significant advantage for those willing to put in the time. Just think about it though, if you become an unstoppable wrecking ball, to those new to the game, how long would that last and would you stick around if you didn’t have people to fight? We NEED people to fight in order for there to be PvP which means we NEED there to be a level playing field. When you take the Champion System out of the equation, there is already a 3 month+ time commitment just to get to max level, obtain sufficient gear, and gain the abilities required to be proficient in PvP.

Prior to 1.6 release, we saw quite a boom in population and Cyrodiil PvP was very much alive and well and still is. Once the game goes to B2P, I am quite certain we will see an even bigger increase in population both for PvE and PvP. How long will that last though? 6 months from now, when the majority of loyal ESO players have obtained a good chunk of the passives, that are specific to their build, those players will have a distinct advantage over new players. This doesn’t matter as much for PvE but when it comes to competitive PvP, players that know they are at a distinct disadvantage will give up and leave or find something else to do in the game. A small percentage of new players will love the game enough to stick with it and grind it out to get to that point where they are on even ground with the competition. However, that small percentage, of new players that stick with it, will not be enough.

In summary,

The Champion System and PvP

New players will be turned off by the advantage that veteran players have over them due to the Champion System and thus, through attrition, PvP numbers will dwindle to the point of no return.
- When you take the Champion System out of the equation, there is already a 3 month+ time commitment just to get to max level, obtain sufficient gear, and gain the abilities required to be proficient in PvP. This doesn’t include the time it takes to understand the synergies between gear and abilities not to mention how to properly play within an organized group.
- The only advantage a player should have over another is from the time put in to understand the mechanics better than someone who is new.
In order for PvP to exist, there MUST be a PvP population! PvP’s #1 content is the players. It does not matter how many new pieces of gear you add or how many new battlegrounds you add or how many changes and or additions to Cyrodiil you make, without people to fight, there is no PvP. Obviously, there are no battlegrounds or arena’s in ESO. I simply mention it because I know that there are PvPers who want these features. I include myself in this group.

Agree or disagree, I am hoping that the folks at Zenimax will read and comment on the future of PvP within this wonderful game. I truly do love ESO and my intent with this post is simply out of concern for its future.

Cheers,

Panda244 · March 2015

This was an obvious problem with the Champion System and it's unlikely that ZOS will do anything about it, or at least, not until very far down the road. Either way, once people start getting 1,000-2,000 CP they're going to need to rebalance the entire game to compensate, because you can fly through things at max CP it's so ridiculous, and you're practically invincible in PvP. The new players will get absolutely destroyed, even right now, because they'll be testing builds, learning to play, siege, zerg, flank, etc.

The future of PvP as it stands currently is...

cozmon3c_ESO · March 2015

pvp needs help with stability of their servers first, this is a long term problem they will deal with down the road, change things, *** off the people who earned the most. you know the usual.

Rohaus · March 2015

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

pvp needs help with stability of their servers first, this is a long term problem they will deal with down the road, change things, *** off the people who earned the most. you know the usual.

Given my experiences with previous MMO's and LARGE scale PvP battles, I have high doubts that ZOS or anyone for that matter has the knowledge and or expertise to tackle this ongoing MMO technological problem.

There is probably some undiscovered algorithm that could solve the issue... and perhaps it would take a series of complex algorithms to eradicate this pervasive MMO issue.

With smaller scaled Cyrodiil PvP battles, I have experienced smooth gameplay. It's when you have 50+ fighting each other, especially inside a keep, that in game performance suffers tremendously.

The most fun, for me, is with small scaled skirmishes. Which leads me to the desire for a battleground setup where you have small groups fighting each other... say, 10 vs 10 being the max. My fear with an implementation of battlegrounds and or the addition of an Arena system would be that Cyrodiil would unquestionably be affected in a negative way. I do love world PvP and in my experiences, Cyrodiil is hands down the best I have seen. However, it most certainly could be improved in terms of performance.

david.haypreub18_ESO · March 2015

I have to agree. I thought the VR grind was bad; the CP grind is orders of magnitude worse. Just thinking of it depresses me.

At the very least, I think they need to make it a progressive system. The first 1,000 or so CPs should cost a lot less; the last ones a lot more. Otherwise, the gap between veteran, hardcore player and newbie will simply be too great to bridge, and that will discourage people from playing.

Potenza · March 2015

To a certain degree I disagree.
New players should get squashed in pvp. This will encourage them to play hard and get leveled up - like the rest of us already did. I worked hard for a year to build my characters. Why should a newbie come in and be up to par with me in two months?
No. Do the work required like the rest of us.

Rohaus · March 2015

j.murro2ub17_ESO wrote: »

To a certain degree I disagree.
New players should get squashed in pvp. This will encourage them to play hard and get leveled up - like the rest of us already did. I worked hard for a year to build my characters. Why should a newbie come in and be up to par with me in two months?
No. Do the work required like the rest of us.

If you had a choice, would you:

Have people to fight against in PvP?
Not have people to fight against in PvP?

Those may seem like silly questions but with the Champion System in mind, this is in reality what we are faced with.

Also, if you read my post, you will see that I state that the only advantage a veteran ESO player should have is the knowledge of game mechanics. If you took a new player and gave them everything... the best gear, all abilities... and they had no prior knowledge of how to play ESO... and you put them up against a veteran ESO player that also had everything... best gear, all abilities... and they had to duel... who do you think would win?

david.haypreub18_ESO · March 2015

I think the VR grind discouraged a lot of people; I know several that left the game because of it, and I even contemplated it myself. The CP system seems worse.

Potenza · March 2015

Rohaus wrote: »

j.murro2ub17_ESO wrote: »

To a certain degree I disagree.
New players should get squashed in pvp. This will encourage them to play hard and get leveled up - like the rest of us already did. I worked hard for a year to build my characters. Why should a newbie come in and be up to par with me in two months?
No. Do the work required like the rest of us.

If you had a choice, would you:
Have people to fight against in PvP?

Not have people to fight against in PvP?

Those may seem like silly questions but with the Champion System in mind, this is in reality what we are faced with.

I think that there will always be people to fight in PvP because those who want to PvP - will PvP. Now they may not jump in at low levels - they may want to get leveled up first, but I don't think it will discourage - it will encourage to work hard to level up.
They could however offer a PvP server for low levels only, so they can hone their skills and get xp.

MrGhosty · March 2015

Another game that I have played for over two years now has gotten their balance down pretty great. To preface what I'm about to say, the game I speak of is Planetside 2 so I am not comparing apples and oranges but rather looking at the design of their core systems.

In PS2, as you level you are able to improve your character but the key aspect of the game lies in it's weaponry. These weapons are all roughly the same damage adjusted for fire rater, type of weapon etc so that they all largely give you the same damage output. What works to reward veteran players isn't vertical progression but rather horizontal progression. If you find that you prefer to be a support player you can adjust your build accordingly and be better at that specific challenge at a cost of not being as efficient in the all around.

New players that come in are weaker, but it is only enough of a gap to provide incentive to level up and improve your skills.

The problem that I see with ESO pvp is that there is already a rather extreme gap (minus the battle leveling thing I've seen mentioned) between new and veteran players. I don't think anyone wants these new players to be as strong or stronger than those who have put in the time but one could argue they should be stronger.

I have no doubt that ZOS will adjust CP if too many players get an advantage but that seems like it would a stop gap measure. Much like they completely revamped systems and skills in 1.6 I think Cyrodil could use a similar revamp. Maybe creating a set of skill values that changes depending on whether the player is in PvP or PvE. Adding in smaller encounter spaces since they can't seem to get a handle on the lag.

One idea that comes to mind is to make Cyrodil a non PvP zone, but sprinkle instanced battlegrounds into key locations based on a variety of win conditions. You could have smaller scale siege, capture the flag, etc and outside of those instances allow cross faction interaction. This could be a sort of hybrid zone that could be compelling, I love the idea of large scale combat as referenced by my longtime love of PS2 but at this point Cyrodil doesn't seem to be working and I feel like if they haven't found a fix for the problems by now they never will.

Pirhana7_ESO · March 2015

Personally i think the Champion System is the best thing to happen to PVP. It give people that next point to push for a reason to keep playing. No one likes to hit that "i'm finished wall" People want to play and be rewarded with progression even if its very minor which the champion system is. This system is similiar to the realm rank system in DAOC and it kept people playing their characters for 5+ years because they were always getting ever so slightly stronger.

The champion system is very very small progression and very long term. It gives people who keep playing a slight edge (which they deserve) and basically it gives people a reason to keep playing. Always getting that next point is something to look forward to and it s NOT a requirment to compete like V14 is

Hexyl · March 2015

PvP is the best content for give people a reason to keep playing.

And champion system breaks the PvP ( atm).

Roechacca · March 2015

Potenza · March 2015

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

Personally i think the Champion System is the best thing to happen to PVP. It give people that next point to push for a reason to keep playing. No one likes to hit that "i'm finished wall" People want to play and be rewarded with progression even if its very minor which the champion system is. This system is similiar to the realm rank system in DAOC and it kept people playing their characters for 5+ years because they were always getting ever so slightly stronger.

The champion system is very very small progression and very long term. It gives people who keep playing a slight edge (which they deserve) and basically it gives people a reason to keep playing. Always getting that next point is something to look forward to and it s NOT a requirment to compete like V14 is

This. And having a sense of accomplishment is much better than just making the game easy and fast to gain levels and gear. Then we go back to the QQ about how the game is too easy.

Vizier · March 2015

Ya, I'm not too terribly concerned. There will likely be changes, nerfs and buffs to balance things out. I started PvPing soon as I hit level 15 with my first character. I had fun and continued to have fun and contribute. I didn't have to be maxed out to have a good time and get kills. I did finally grind to 14 with my main though so I could take advantage of the Champion System. Getting to 14 was indeed a huge increase in my characters ability to kill and survive. It also allowed for me to fully concentrate on getting my gear in top form. T

here are pro's and cons to all systems but in the end this isn't a cookie cutter shooter where all things are equal in the arena. It's a MMO with progression and reward for the time spent playing the game. So long as new players can get kills even if it's table scraps and relatively survive with smart play I'm fine with it.

It may very well be that player characters under a certain level and or Champion level get buffed much in the same way the are now in PvP when they are under vet1 rank. If that's what it takes as the system evolves I'm fine with that too. So long as it's not advantageous to remain under rank for the buffs.

With regard to the OP. I think you worry too much, but your point is well taken.

Robbmrp · March 2015

j.murro2ub17_ESO wrote: »

To a certain degree I disagree.
New players should get squashed in pvp. This will encourage them to play hard and get leveled up - like the rest of us already did. I worked hard for a year to build my characters. Why should a newbie come in and be up to par with me in two months?
No. Do the work required like the rest of us.

I agree with you that new people to PVP should get squashed but NOT one shotted. The difference in CP that someone new will have against someone who's been here 6 months and farming CP will equate to just that, one shots every time. It doesn't skill to click a 1 button death sentence. Is that new person going to go, "well I better put in my time and get stronger" or are they going to go "this is f-en bull****" and quit PVPing altogether.

I was in a group with a friend of mine killing some random mobs in Craglorn and experienced a BIG difference in damage output from CP. We had two Sorcs in the group, one had 73 CP and another has 93. The one with more CP was able to consistently do 7k damage more with only a 20 CP difference. They did have a monster helm with shoulders so that helped a little but maybe for 1.5k. How much DPS is someone going to do with 200, 500, 1000? Anyone with that high of CP is going to one shot everyone with a fraction of that CP.

Here it is only a week out, and there's already some big differences being shown. It's only going to get worse. Eventually the only people going to PVP will be the few players with 1000 CP. How much fun will it be to PVP then when there's only 10 players in there from each faction...

Just my op...

Potenza · March 2015

Robbmrp wrote: »

j.murro2ub17_ESO wrote: »

To a certain degree I disagree.
New players should get squashed in pvp. This will encourage them to play hard and get leveled up - like the rest of us already did. I worked hard for a year to build my characters. Why should a newbie come in and be up to par with me in two months?
No. Do the work required like the rest of us.

I agree with you that new people to PVP should get squashed but NOT one shotted. The difference in CP that someone new will have against someone who's been here 6 months and farming CP will equate to just that, one shots every time. It doesn't skill to click a 1 button death sentence. Is that new person going to go, "well I better put in my time and get stronger" or are they going to go "this is f-en bull****" and quit PVPing altogether.

I was in a group with a friend of mine killing some random mobs in Craglorn and experienced a BIG difference in damage output from CP. We had two Sorcs in the group, one had 73 CP and another has 93. The one with more CP was able to consistently do 7k damage more with only a 20 CP difference. They did have a monster helm with shoulders so that helped a little but maybe for 1.5k. How much DPS is someone going to do with 200, 500, 1000? Anyone with that high of CP is going to one shot everyone with a fraction of that CP.

Here it is only a week out, and there's already some big differences being shown. It's only going to get worse. Eventually the only people going to PVP will be the few players with 1000 CP. How much fun will it be to PVP then when there's only 10 players in there from each faction...

Just my op...

Just so you know - you cannot compare your numbers that you are getting in PvE with what will happen in PvP.
PvP damage will be very different depending on the type gear you are wearing.
Regardless of the amount of CP's you have, you can obtain and craft high level gear and skills to mitigate damage taken just like anyone else.
I am just speaking in general terms - one could argue the details about this till doomsday - and I not going there. With that said, nothing will ever change my opinion that to allow new players an even playing field as a veteran player is just wrong.

Earn it - like everyone else did.

Wreuntzylla · March 2015

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

Personally i think the Champion System is the best thing to happen to PVP. It give people that next point to push for a reason to keep playing. No one likes to hit that "i'm finished wall" People want to play and be rewarded with progression even if its very minor which the champion system is. This system is similiar to the realm rank system in DAOC and it kept people playing their characters for 5+ years because they were always getting ever so slightly stronger.

The champion system is very very small progression and very long term. It gives people who keep playing a slight edge (which they deserve) and basically it gives people a reason to keep playing. Always getting that next point is something to look forward to and it s NOT a requirment to compete like V14 is

The issue is not whether progression motivates people, it clearly does. The issue is whether you can ever build and maintain a healthy PvP population where the progression causes a significant disparity. The answer turns out to be no. Almost no one is willing to roll a boulder uphill behind early players, for months or years, so that they can finally reach a competitive power level.

The slight edge you deserve in PvP is your knowledge of the game and whatever edge your skill brings. I understand that some people like to pug stomp and kick kittens. While I do not understand a non-competitive mentality at all, I do understand that people don't suffer being kittens for long.

It's funny that you point to DAOC, which lost a huge number of players as 24/7 peeps pushed up beyond the average players to the point that PvP was a joke. In response, much too late, Mythic rebalanced the realm rank system.

Matt Frior knows better. He killed DAOC with ToA. After people realized they had to run 6-8 hour raids for a chance at gear that completely unbalanced PvP, as well as grind for scrolls at an abysmal drop rate, the population dropped like a stone. I never before or after DAoC played a game with such a severe population hit at one time.

Kromus · March 2015

j.murro2ub17_ESO wrote: »

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

Personally i think the Champion System is the best thing to happen to PVP. It give people that next point to push for a reason to keep playing. No one likes to hit that "i'm finished wall" People want to play and be rewarded with progression even if its very minor which the champion system is. This system is similiar to the realm rank system in DAOC and it kept people playing their characters for 5+ years because they were always getting ever so slightly stronger.

The champion system is very very small progression and very long term. It gives people who keep playing a slight edge (which they deserve) and basically it gives people a reason to keep playing. Always getting that next point is something to look forward to and it s NOT a requirment to compete like V14 is

This. And having a sense of accomplishment is much better than just making the game easy and fast to gain levels and gear. Then we go back to the QQ about how the game is too easy.

"Sense of accomplishment" in PvP should be in defeating your enemy on equal terms, as underdog, with your skills and knowledge of combat, not by going with a tank/zerg against bear handed rookies. PvP should be about what you do and not what you wear. CS is not "very very small progression" and will bring huge disparity between players over time.

Personally, what attracted me most to stay in Cyro when I entered it for first time was that as veteran player I got smacked by non-veteran players, several times, in good fights. For me it was a sign that neither levels or gear make big role in Cyro, and gave me motivation to improve and actually PvP. In case I got steamrolled in 1-2 seconds, without actual fighting, like it will be when CS+ player meet CS- player, my thoughts would probably be 'k, this is broken, move on'. In meantime, zergs and zos/exploiters ruined the game and it seems CS will nail it down to the ground. Who in right mind would want to grind for year or more, just to be competitive in PvP aspect of game? I don't want to see Cyrodiil turning into desolated national park where only old crocodiles and young chickens resides.

It would be really great if you could point me at some post where people is QQ-ing how game is too easy in PvP. In PvE you have somewhat fixed level of difficulty and you could describe it as hard or easy, for you, at that moment, but in PvP its dynamic and changes with each enemy you encounter. I'm also not sure how can PvP player hit "i'm finished wall" but wth.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · March 2015

taking cp out of pvp is too extreme. A cap im ok with, but complete removal of cp will have players leave now instead of your theoretical new palyers who will quit in the future.

they also can always just sell leveld characters to keep the gap samller like some games do.

IcyDeadPeople · March 2015

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

Personally i think the Champion System is the best thing to happen to PVP. It give people that next point to push for a reason to keep playing. No one likes to hit that "i'm finished wall" People want to play and be rewarded with progression even if its very minor which the champion system is. This system is similiar to the realm rank system in DAOC and it kept people playing their characters for 5+ years because they were always getting ever so slightly stronger.

The champion system is very very small progression and very long term. It gives people who keep playing a slight edge (which they deserve) and basically it gives people a reason to keep playing. Always getting that next point is something to look forward to and it s NOT a requirment to compete like V14 is

The issue is not whether progression motivates people, it clearly does. The issue is whether you can ever build and maintain a healthy PvP population where the progression causes a significant disparity. The answer turns out to be no. Almost no one is willing to roll a boulder uphill behind early players, for months or years, so that they can finally reach a competitive power level.

It's one thing if you can "roll the boulder uphill" while you are participating in PVP, learning how to fight other players as you progress and gain new abilities, earning XP/CP at a reasonable rate compared to PVE.

It would be another situation entirely if new PVP players have to go back and grind PVE for 6 months just to be remotely competitive in Cyrodiil.

Lied · March 2015

The stupid thing is I'm certain that something will be done in the future to entice new players into PvP. It's stupid because, like every other MMO that does this, we're going to have to wait until it actually gets bad enough to make something happen. The players that will be lost and not come back between now and then is just a waste.

Rohaus · March 2015

I am just hoping ZOS does not follow the same path as AoC in regards to waiting till it is too late to balance PvP and add new PvP content. Part of me thinks that if they ever do get around to adding battlegrounds and possibly an arena system that it will NOT be because Cyrodiil is dead... Not enough PvPers will kill Cyrodiil.

Wreuntzylla · March 2015

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

Personally i think the Champion System is the best thing to happen to PVP. It give people that next point to push for a reason to keep playing. No one likes to hit that "i'm finished wall" People want to play and be rewarded with progression even if its very minor which the champion system is. This system is similiar to the realm rank system in DAOC and it kept people playing their characters for 5+ years because they were always getting ever so slightly stronger.

The champion system is very very small progression and very long term. It gives people who keep playing a slight edge (which they deserve) and basically it gives people a reason to keep playing. Always getting that next point is something to look forward to and it s NOT a requirment to compete like V14 is

The issue is not whether progression motivates people, it clearly does. The issue is whether you can ever build and maintain a healthy PvP population where the progression causes a significant disparity. The answer turns out to be no. Almost no one is willing to roll a boulder uphill behind early players, for months or years, so that they can finally reach a competitive power level.

It's one thing if you can "roll the boulder uphill" while you are participating in PVP, learning how to fight other players as you progress and gain new abilities, earning XP/CP at a reasonable rate compared to PVE.

I agree, except that you are awarded in PvP for winning fights, not losing them.

LtCrunch · March 2015

Why don't we just give everyone the same gear, stats and ability bar for PVP. ZOS should take away any form of significant progression so new players don't feel alienated.

/s

That's the extreme example but that's largely what this thread comes down to, making progression less meaningful. It's an MMORPG and progression is a thing that is there to differentiate more experienced players from newer players. If a player doesn't expect to be at a disadvantage coming into a year old game that's on them, not a fault of the champion system or any other form of progression system present in any MMORPG ever.

ZRage · March 2015

Rohaus wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

pvp needs help with stability of their servers first, this is a long term problem they will deal with down the road, change things, *** off the people who earned the most. you know the usual.

Given my experiences with previous MMO's and LARGE scale PvP battles, I have high doubts that ZOS or anyone for that matter has the knowledge and or expertise to tackle this ongoing MMO technological problem.

There is probably some undiscovered algorithm that could solve the issue... and perhaps it would take a series of complex algorithms to eradicate this pervasive MMO issue.

With smaller scaled Cyrodiil PvP battles, I have experienced smooth gameplay. It's when you have 50+ fighting each other, especially inside a keep, that in game performance suffers tremendously.

The most fun, for me, is with small scaled skirmishes. Which leads me to the desire for a battleground setup where you have small groups fighting each other... say, 10 vs 10 being the max. My fear with an implementation of battlegrounds and or the addition of an Arena system would be that Cyrodiil would unquestionably be affected in a negative way. I do love world PvP and in my experiences, Cyrodiil is hands down the best I have seen. However, it most certainly could be improved in terms of performance.

Design > Algorithm

For instance, buff the AP gain, xp rewards in other campaigns to encourage people spread into various campaigns more evenly = there you go no more overpopulated PvP campaigns. The thing is everybody want's to play in most populated campaigns because they get AP faster (bigger rewards) you don't really need excessive algorithms to fix that, buff small fights AP/XP gain and underpopulated campaign bonuses could solver the lag problem.