The "Catch 22" of the Champion Points system . . . what is to be done?

Messy1 · March 2015

Okay, yes, there are multiple threads on this topic popping up all over this forum, but this discussion is designed to evaluate the grievances that some players have with the system and suggest solutions . . .

First, the major source of anger seems to be coming from the VR14 community that is faced with a difficult situation . . .
Situation 1: You are VR14 you have completed Cadwell's silver and gold and Craglorn content and you have been doing trials, pledges, and VR dungeons for quite a while, you also may be taking a role in the PvP area.
-In this case it is very hard for a VR14 to earn CPs without grinding, in fact the repeatable quests and trials become a form of grind in and of themselves.

Situation 2: You have multiple VR14 characters that you have leveled up through content and grinding. You probably have completed Cadwell's silver and gold and craglorn, but you may have just decided to grind yourself up to VR 14 and then go back and do content to get achievements. You may also be very involved in PvP and want to have a few different VR14 builds and you don't particularly care for most of the PvE content
-This situation may be the most frustrating because in order to be very effective in PvP you need to be VR14 and you like having multiple characters at VR14 to switch between, and with some of the skill line adjustments in patch 1.6 you're still not sure how things will play out

Situation 3: You grind all your characters up to VR14 and do minimal PvE, you probably do a lot of PvP
-Also a frustrating situation . . . why should you have to go through all the PvE content to be viable in PvP? You seem to be at a disadvantage earning exp, CPs, and gold because you focus on PvP a lot. Or maybe you just leveled a character to VR14 as quick as you could because you just want the endgame experience and don't care about the rest, but now you are disappointed because you feel like you have nothing else to do, but in reality shame on you for skipping all the content LOL

Situation 4: Other (tell us your situation)

What can we draw from all of this? Well, I think that ZOS is still trying to create a fun enduring game for fans, but I hope they do not get too mired down in the bottom line (i.e. dollars and cents). If the game is developed in the right way success will be in the fact that it is fun to a variety of people and profits will grow. Unfortunately, there seems to be a perception and even a reality that ZOS has defaulted on some of their original promises that they made when they began this whole process. The justice system is a true bright spot and the heart and soul of Elder Scrolls game has always been one of awe and intrigue because of the freedom allowed in the game world. ZOS probably needs to rededicate themselves to making an Elder Scrolls game first and worry about some of the MMO stuff second (but in reality we know that they are pretty much intertwined). ZOS is at a critical juncture in development right now. The promise of the game will hinge on how well Tamriel Unlimited does. In my opinion there is a lot more that needs to be added to the game and even adjusted such as a true open world feeling, more content, PvP zones outside of Cyrodil, cloaks and or capes, spellcrafting, more skill lines, more classes, more of a lot of stuff that have been mentioned over and over again in threads on this forum. ZOS has the luxury of being able to have meetings in rooms and plan out the destiny of this game, players can only hope that there is some sort of consensus on issues in the player base that will lead to the content and features that we truly want. So here's to the future of ESO.

Phinix1 · March 2015

The grinding crowd is impossible to please, and no MMO company should try.

Grinders don't WANT a balanced game, they want a winning simulation to stroke their epeen.

Xexpo · March 2015

Dear ZOS,
No one will play when it sucks beyond diehard comprehension.
Please stop for the love of god.

sput4ueb17_ESO · March 2015

it feels like we are the paying beta testers again....

Lookstowindwards · March 2015

Beside of giving new content as fast as possible, so at least the PvE-people have something to do for their CPs, I think Zenimax could relax the situation by doing some ajustments to CP-gain in generel:

1) CP should also be gained through inspiration

2) Crafting dailies should give as much CP-Exp as other dailies do

3) In PvP there should be a ration between gaining CP-Exp and doing PvP things (maybe tight to APs? More Exp per Kill? Must be inplemented carefully to hinder abuse, but there must be done something, as the only thing giving reasonable CP-Exp in Cyro are ... quests! So at the very moment, if you dont have the right scroll quest, dont turn in your kill quests asap, you loose Exp. Not to mention that doing the PvE-quests in Cyro is much more effective then doing PvP at the moment)

4) With TU coming we will face another problem (which is already here, but it will become even more frustrating for all players, old and new): a lot of people will have friends returning to/starting playing the game. If some of us want to level with them - we will loose time for CP-gain. So it would be nice if one would get the first CPs in the normal leveling progress toward 50 - say 1 CP for 2 levels or so?

On all other things you said: I agree that giving the game more of an ES-feeling asap is needed, so more skill lines, spell crafting, housing, more PvP-options and more PvE-regions to explore (the last two first, as the people become bored with doing the same stuff all over again).

And give us the ability to craft jewelry, goddamit!

Messy1 · March 2015

sput4ueb17_ESO wrote: »

it feels like we are the paying beta testers again....

I wouldn't mind being a paying beta tester if the general consensus was "oh man this game is getting better and better because of our efforts." I still enjoy ESO, but I thought it would be improving a lot more in the categories of stability and game mechanics/ content, which it has kind of stagnated on.

Messy1 · March 2015

Lookstowindwards wrote: »

Beside of giving new content as fast as possible, so at least the PvE-people have something to do for their CPs, I think Zenimax could relax the situation by doing some ajustments to CP-gain in generel:

1) CP should also be gained through inspiration

2) Crafting dailies should give as much CP-Exp as other dailies do

3) In PvP there should be a ration between gaining CP-Exp and doing PvP things (maybe tight to APs? More Exp per Kill? Must be inplemented carefully to hinder abuse, but there must be done something, as the only thing giving reasonable CP-Exp in Cyro are ... quests! So at the very moment, if you dont have the right scroll quest, dont turn in your kill quests asap, you loose Exp. Not to mention that doing the PvE-quests in Cyro is much more effective then doing PvP at the moment)

4) With TU coming we will face another problem (which is already here, but it will become even more frustrating for all players, old and new): a lot of people will have friends returning to/starting playing the game. If some of us want to level with them - we will loose time for CP-gain. So it would be nice if one would get the first CPs in the normal leveling progress toward 50 - say 1 CP for 2 levels or so?

On all other things you said: I agree that giving the game more of an ES-feeling asap is needed, so more skill lines, spell crafting, housing, more PvP-options and more PvE-regions to explore (the last two first, as the people become bored with doing the same stuff all over again).

And give us the ability to craft jewelry, goddamit!

Interesting . . . I wonder . . . if I deleted all my characters would all my CPs disappear? Or could I have a new character with the same amount of max CPs that I currently have? You make a very valid point . . . why can't people start earning CPs from lvls 1-50, unfortunately the counter argument to this will be . . . grinding, a person could just start a new character play it to lvl 10 earn 2-4 CPs and just repeat the process to gain many many CPs

Lookstowindwards · March 2015

Messy1 wrote: »

Interesting . . . I wonder . . . if I deleted all my characters would all my CPs disappear? Or could I have a new character with the same amount of max CPs that I currently have?

Good question... would be nice to get an answer from Zenimax on that, as i doubt, we will find a volunteer to try out. ;D

Messy1 wrote: »

You make a very valid point . . . why can't people start earning CPs from lvls 1-50, unfortunately the counter argument to this will be . . . grinding, a person could just start a new character play it to lvl 10 earn 2-4 CPs and just repeat the process to gain many many CPs

There is already a cap for deleting characters, Zeni would just have to make it smarter. Still, you are right, people would try to exploid, as they do with grinding for CP now.

Another way to hinder exploiting this system would be to give CPs on certain quests, maybe the quests that give a skill point already?

Also: Why not give at least _some_ CPs for Achivements? One per doing each big delve with all bosses and the group challenge (so one per region)? For the big quest metas? The fishing metas? etc.?

Yolokin_Swagonborn · March 2015

GIVE Champion points for playing PvP.

It's that simple. Why is it that I can press impulse on mobs and get more CP than ostensibly helping the war effort?

What is ZOS's major hangup with allowing people who enjoy PvP the most to progress at the same level as people who PvE?

There is a large portion of the community that only plays this game for PvP. As long as there is PvP, they will stay. Even through the bugs, lag, imbalance, and exploiters. They love PvP, they will stay.

So why does ZOS force such a dedicated fanbase out of PvP to grind PvE to remain competitive? You don't need to incentives for PvP players to play your game more. We love PvP we will play it till we drop from exhaustion. Just bloody reward us for it.

sput4ueb17_ESO · March 2015

Guys is as simple as this... The game is called The Elder Scrolls..... We are not Elder yet

Yolokin_Swagonborn · March 2015

sput4ueb17_ESO wrote: »

Guys is as simple as this... The game is called The Elder Scrolls..... We are not Elder yet

Well the game is set 1000 years before skyrim. Maybe we have to wait 1000 years to be fully powered?

IcyDeadPeople · March 2015

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

GIVE Champion points for playing PvP.

It's that simple. Why is it that I can press impulse on mobs and get more CP than ostensibly helping the war effort?

What is ZOS's major hangup with allowing people who enjoy PvP the most to progress at the same level as people who PvE?

There is a large portion of the community that only plays this game for PvP. As long as there is PvP, they will stay. Even through the bugs, lag, imbalance, and exploiters. They love PvP, they will stay.

So why does ZOS force such a dedicated fanbase out of PvP to grind PvE to remain competitive? You don't need to incentives for PvP players to play your game more. We love PvP we will play it till we drop from exhaustion. Just bloody reward us for it.

Well said, and there are ways to do this while avoiding exploits like people trading kills, etc.

Higher XP for the Cyrodiil dailies might be enough to attract people back to these quest hub areas for ganking and small battles. Or some new category of quests added to the mission board at the gate, specific tasks that actually help your faction based on the map conditions, etc.

reften · March 2015

I'm just happy we don't have to go underwater as in the trials of Atlantis fail that killed daoc for me.

Faugaun · March 2015

Lookstowindwards wrote: »

Messy1 wrote: »

Interesting . . . I wonder . . . if I deleted all my characters would all my CPs disappear? Or could I have a new character with the same amount of max CPs that I currently have?

Good question... would be nice to get an answer from Zenimax on that, as i doubt, we will find a volunteer to try out. ;D

Messy1 wrote: »

You make a very valid point . . . why can't people start earning CPs from lvls 1-50, unfortunately the counter argument to this will be . . . grinding, a person could just start a new character play it to lvl 10 earn 2-4 CPs and just repeat the process to gain many many CPs

There is already a cap for deleting characters, Zeni would just have to make it smarter. Still, you are right, people would try to exploid, as they do with grinding for CP now.

Another way to hinder exploiting this system would be to give CPs on certain quests, maybe the quests that give a skill point already?

Also: Why not give at least _some_ CPs for Achivements? One per doing each big delve with all bosses and the group challenge (so one per region)? For the big quest metas? The fishing metas? etc.?

Suggested and community was opposed:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/149963/a-radical-redesign-of-the-champion-system/p1

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

GIVE Champion points for playing PvP.

It's that simple. Why is it that I can press impulse on mobs and get more CP than ostensibly helping the war effort?

What is ZOS's major hangup with allowing people who enjoy PvP the most to progress at the same level as people who PvE?

There is a large portion of the community that only plays this game for PvP. As long as there is PvP, they will stay. Even through the bugs, lag, imbalance, and exploiters. They love PvP, they will stay.

So why does ZOS force such a dedicated fanbase out of PvP to grind PvE to remain competitive? You don't need to incentives for PvP players to play your game more. We love PvP we will play it till we drop from exhaustion. Just bloody reward us for it.

Suggested:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/154286/fixed-dynamic-experience-for-pvp-at-a-rate-of-100k-exp-per-hour#latest

Very little interest

Or the alternate very level PvP idea:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153432/suggestion-competition-server#latest

No interest either

Lookstowindwards wrote: »

Beside of giving new content as fast as possible, so at least the PvE-people have something to do for their CPs, I think Zenimax could relax the situation by doing some ajustments to CP-gain in generel:

1) CP should also be gained through inspiration

2) Crafting dailies should give as much CP-Exp as other dailies do

3) In PvP there should be a ration between gaining CP-Exp and doing PvP things (maybe tight to APs? More Exp per Kill? Must be inplemented carefully to hinder abuse, but there must be done something, as the only thing giving reasonable CP-Exp in Cyro are ... quests! So at the very moment, if you dont have the right scroll quest, dont turn in your kill quests asap, you loose Exp. Not to mention that doing the PvE-quests in Cyro is much more effective then doing PvP at the moment)

4) With TU coming we will face another problem (which is already here, but it will become even more frustrating for all players, old and new): a lot of people will have friends returning to/starting playing the game. If some of us want to level with them - we will loose time for CP-gain. So it would be nice if one would get the first CPs in the normal leveling progress toward 50 - say 1 CP for 2 levels or so?

On all other things you said: I agree that giving the game more of an ES-feeling asap is needed, so more skill lines, spell crafting, housing, more PvP-options and more PvE-regions to explore (the last two first, as the people become bored with doing the same stuff all over again).

And give us the ability to craft jewelry, goddamit!

Even a potential solution for RPers:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/150031/how-zos-can-get-lots-of-new-players/p1

Finally a suggestion for improving communication between players and developers to ensure they are developing in a way their customers desire:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/152050/opinion-economics-business-and-entertainment#latest

In the end fixes have been suggested ( i know they have cause ive personally suggested fixes) for all the problems in this (and other similar posts) there are some really good solutions that have been proposed (not just in my threads, they were just easiest to locate).

The bottom line: a player should just be able to walk into the game and do what is fun for them (whatever that may be) and progress through the game. This should be standardized so all activities progress mostly equally (ya perfection is hard and maybe in more complex systems impossible). Dynamic calculation of exp with a cap on daily maximum for various activities to benchmark them at the desired progression speed for various activities ....this ensures all activities progress at about the right rate but actively modifies the returns (automatically without the need for zos to constantly rebalance stuff cause it rebalances itself...). Ideas like these take a lot of front end development but help immensely on the back end (cause they auto control exploiters and they prevent speed creep (you know where more powerful players kill the same NPC faster thus receiving exp and progression faster...).

Maybe some of these ideas need to be reexamined by the community and zos.

Finally and this is probably the biggest thing....if the community cannot come to a consensus because we are busy fighting with each other instead of taking ideas and improving them... Then any progress will be both slow and hit or miss....

Messy1 · March 2015

Can we all agree that this man should make more appearances on the ESO website and in ESO live? Maybe even have his own show . . . heck, put him in charge of future development

Lawrence Schick for President!

andrantos · March 2015

I tabled my main once I hit 50/VR1 knowing CP were coming and other end-game advancements...

My question is, weren't players with VR2-VR14 given additional CP for their efforts? If so, won't we all be in the same point once we all reach V14?

I assume, if balanced fairly, by the time I hit VR14, I should have attained as much CP as a VR14 had once 1.6 went live.

In regards to some statements, I agree that the goal should be to provide a very open-ended endgame that fairly rewards CP progress across a variety of content.

For players that have effectively accomplished everything there was to do in the game prior to 1.6, there obviously won't be much in the way of "new" stuff to make the CP "grind" engaging/interesting. Hopefully, this is resolved in 1.7 because it will simply become a larger issue as new players, players such as myself, and console players catch up.

phreatophile · March 2015

"Johnny got a cookie" holds breath and pounds head on floor

"But we told you cookies are over by the basketball hoop"

"But I wanna build sand castles. I want my cookie" face turning purple

So tired of the nerf this nerf that. Can we get a nerf to the effectiveness of forum tantrums?

You find a spot to grind...Tell no one. Except me of course.

For the record, I only have 84 CP. I just think the attitude of some posters in these CP whine threads is beneath contempt and closely resembles the three lines above. Thanks to them nobody gets cookies.

Faugaun · March 2015

andrantos wrote: »

I tabled my main once I hit 50/VR1 knowing CP were coming and other end-game advancements...

My question is, weren't players with VR2-VR14 given additional CP for their efforts? If so, won't we all be in the same point once we all reach V14?

I assume, if balanced fairly, by the time I hit VR14, I should have attained as much CP as a VR14 had once 1.6 went live.

In regards to some statements, I agree that the goal should be to provide a very open-ended endgame that fairly rewards CP progress across a variety of content.

For players that have effectively accomplished everything there was to do in the game prior to 1.6, there obviously won't be much in the way of "new" stuff to make the CP "grind" engaging/interesting. Hopefully, this is resolved in 1.7 because it will simply become a larger issue as new players, players such as myself, and console players catch up.

Actually you will have exactly half the cp of aome one who had 1 (and only 1) VR14, the conversion was 200,000 exp per cp .. Now you need 400k per cp

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2015

Faugaun wrote: »

andrantos wrote: »

I tabled my main once I hit 50/VR1 knowing CP were coming and other end-game advancements...

My question is, weren't players with VR2-VR14 given additional CP for their efforts? If so, won't we all be in the same point once we all reach V14?

I assume, if balanced fairly, by the time I hit VR14, I should have attained as much CP as a VR14 had once 1.6 went live.

In regards to some statements, I agree that the goal should be to provide a very open-ended endgame that fairly rewards CP progress across a variety of content.

For players that have effectively accomplished everything there was to do in the game prior to 1.6, there obviously won't be much in the way of "new" stuff to make the CP "grind" engaging/interesting. Hopefully, this is resolved in 1.7 because it will simply become a larger issue as new players, players such as myself, and console players catch up.

Actually you will have exactly half the cp of aome one who had 1 (and only 1) VR14, the conversion was 200,000 exp per cp .. Now you need 400k per cp

That depends upon how many vr14's you had, as the amount earned previously was limited.

Faugaun · March 2015

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

andrantos wrote: »

I tabled my main once I hit 50/VR1 knowing CP were coming and other end-game advancements...

My question is, weren't players with VR2-VR14 given additional CP for their efforts? If so, won't we all be in the same point once we all reach V14?

I assume, if balanced fairly, by the time I hit VR14, I should have attained as much CP as a VR14 had once 1.6 went live.

In regards to some statements, I agree that the goal should be to provide a very open-ended endgame that fairly rewards CP progress across a variety of content.

For players that have effectively accomplished everything there was to do in the game prior to 1.6, there obviously won't be much in the way of "new" stuff to make the CP "grind" engaging/interesting. Hopefully, this is resolved in 1.7 because it will simply become a larger issue as new players, players such as myself, and console players catch up.

Actually you will have exactly half the cp of aome one who had 1 (and only 1) VR14, the conversion was 200,000 exp per cp .. Now you need 400k per cp

That depends upon how many vr14's you had, as the amount earned previously was limited.

I bolded what I wrote

Edit: and it was hidden in a show previous quotes box...

Faugaun wrote: »

andrantos wrote: »

I tabled my main once I hit 50/VR1 knowing CP were coming and other end-game advancements...

My question is, weren't players with VR2-VR14 given additional CP for their efforts? If so, won't we all be in the same point once we all reach V14?

I assume, if balanced fairly, by the time I hit VR14, I should have attained as much CP as a VR14 had once 1.6 went live.

In regards to some statements, I agree that the goal should be to provide a very open-ended endgame that fairly rewards CP progress across a variety of content.

For players that have effectively accomplished everything there was to do in the game prior to 1.6, there obviously won't be much in the way of "new" stuff to make the CP "grind" engaging/interesting. Hopefully, this is resolved in 1.7 because it will simply become a larger issue as new players, players such as myself, and console players catch up.

Actually you will have exactly half the cp of aome one who had 1 (and only 1) VR14, the conversion was 200,000 exp per cp .. Now you need 400k per cp