Vampires - It's not enough

MADshadowman · March 2015

Leon119 wrote: »

even if they buff vamps again evil hunter wrecks them so doesnt matter. Go in pvp slot evil hunter and you will notice half population is vampires. Makes you wonder why vampires are considered evil by the majority if they ARE the majority. I for one like having bright shiny targets in pvp. If u want to be a vampire you have to accept the weaknesses. Active skills may be nerfed but the passives are good too.
you should become a vamp because its something you want not because its better than being human

Haven't you read the thread?

We are playing vamps because we want to be vamps, not for the benefits. But in order to feel like a vampire, there need to be more abilities to choose from. Vampires are basically a sub class and classes need skills so you can actively play them. 3 abilities are not enough to really play as a vampire.

And we are accepting our weaknesses, we are actually asking for more in exchange for more abilities.

You might wanna read the thread, so your comments make sense and fit into this discussion.

phreatophile · March 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

Leon119 wrote: »

even if they buff vamps again evil hunter wrecks them so doesnt matter. Go in pvp slot evil hunter and you will notice half population is vampires. Makes you wonder why vampires are considered evil by the majority if they ARE the majority. I for one like having bright shiny targets in pvp. If u want to be a vampire you have to accept the weaknesses. Active skills may be nerfed but the passives are good too.
you should become a vamp because its something you want not because its better than being human

Haven't you read the thread?

We are playing vamps because we want to be vamps, not for the benefits. But in order to feel like a vampire, there need to be more abilities to choose from. Vampires are basically a sub class and classes need skills so you can actively play them. 3 abilities are not enough to really play as a vampire.

And we are accepting our weaknesses, we are actually asking for more in exchange for more abilities.

You might wanna read the thread, so your comments make sense and fit into this discussion.

That's been the pattern since launch. Someone complains about the obvious deficiency in ESO's implementation of vampires, and takes great pains to make a case that boils down to "more interesting not more powerful", and some Troll whose every word makes clear that they didn't read any of it lifts their leg all over the place with an argument that amounts to "twilight/bats/OP".

Rust_in_Peace · March 2015

Vamps and Werewolves should never have been allowed to use fighter's guild abilities or passives but they *** it up by making that part of one of the main quests as you level so that's basically impossible. That should have been the difference between being a monster or a human.

Hortator Mopa · March 2015

Heres a awesome idea.

Vamps can only use vamp skills and never use a human skill ever OR they are only a half human so they should only be allowed to use human skills at 50% strength. That includes class skills.

vamps.

Orihara_Izaya · March 2015

I felt I should mention that vampires also get a 75% health nerf at stage 4, I think that's plenty bad not to mention the fire thing. All the skills have been nerfed repetitively since launch, all the passives are useless except for dark stalker, and the 10% magicka/stamina regen. Yes the dmg reduction passive is usless not only is it a stupid low amount but it only reaches it's max potential when your dead.

I dunno I really like vampire simply just for the dark stalker and regen, but I might end up droping it since it's just a pain in the ass. Hopefully a few balancing changes to make the trade off more equal.

Forestd16b14_ESO · March 2015

Oh vampire are weak for once? Sorry couldn't tell from all the cookie cutter builds.

Pfft honestly cookie cutter builds are problems cause sure vamps were strong at the start but there suppose to be like WW they are magical immortal beings after all. But due to players finding out early on the the Dunmer passive power of reduce fire damage canceled out the vampires weakness to fire they were able to abuse that and make a vampire build that had no negatives and all the pluses. With that vampires were branded as OP and every patch every one screamed nerf just like DKs with the infi tank build. Not all vampires DK Sorc or what ever are these OP monsters that the cookie cutter builds make them out to be I got friends who are vamps pre patch who died all the time be PvE or PvP. I'm a DK and I am far from a OP god as to Sheogorath is the mad prince. So if we ever wanna see real balancing to all classes, races, skills, and what else we need to get rid of cookie cutter builds and try out our own skills and make combos that we come up with and not seen on youtube.

ZOS_ShannonM · March 2015

Hello folks,
We have edited and removed multiple posts from this thread for rude and insulting comments as well as off topic comments.
It is never appropriate to resort to personal attacks and insults. We would like to allow this thread to continue, but to do so the Code of Conduct must be adhered to.
Thank you for understanding.

WraithAzraiel · March 2015

Now there's this awesome new bug that doesn't show your appearance change for the Stages until AFTER you wayshrine, use a door, or change zones!

MornaBaine · March 2015

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Now there's this awesome new bug that doesn't show your appearance change for the Stages until AFTER you wayshrine, use a door, or change zones!

Yep, it's much like the sit emote bug that has been around since, I'm pretty sure, launch. With the sit bug, unless you were WITH the character when they sat down, if you come into the area they are in later, they will appear to be standing to you instead of sitting. I know that's been reported numerous times but thus far they've not felt the need to fix it.

With the vampire appearance bug, If you feed your appearance does NOT change to reflect the Stage you are now in. However, if someone zoned in after you had fed THEY would see your appearance reflecting the correct stage. However, as time goes on, while your Stage WILL change on the mechanics side of things, your APPEARANCE will not. Not until you use a wayshrine to--or travel to another player, at which point you will appear at your correct Stage. But, once again, your appearance will NOT change as you progress through the Stages. So, say you and a friend are questing together, you feed until you are Stage 1 and then use a wayshrine to get to a tavern. 4 hours later in that tavern your friend (and you yourself) will still see your character as APPEARING to be at Stage 1 even though you are Stage 4 now. Now say you've been at the tavern for a couple hours since you entered it at Stage 1 and ANOTHER friend comes in. THAT friend will then see you at Stage 2 while you and your original friend will still see you at Stage 1. It is entirely possible to have 4 different people seeing you at 4 different Stages all at once. I reported this bug the first day after 1.6 but they did not see fit to address it in the latest patch.

MornaBaine · March 2015

Thank you ZOS for fixing the Stage appearance bug. Now PLEASE consider revamping the Stage Timers themselves. My favorite idea is STILL to switch up the times between Stage 1 and Stage 3.

MADshadowman · March 2015

MornaBaine wrote: »

Thank you ZOS for fixing the Stage appearance bug. Now PLEASE consider revamping the Stage Timers themselves. My favorite idea is STILL to switch up the times between Stage 1 and Stage 3.

i would like them even longer, like an ingame day or so

MornaBaine · March 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Thank you ZOS for fixing the Stage appearance bug. Now PLEASE consider revamping the Stage Timers themselves. My favorite idea is STILL to switch up the times between Stage 1 and Stage 3.

i would like them even longer, like an ingame day or so

Personally, I would too. But that would freak out the PvPers if it took them "too long" to get back to Stage 4. This is the best compromise I can think of that doesn't affect them in the slightest.

DHale · March 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

All my toons are vampires. I enjoy being a vampire, not only for the skills and passives, but also for RP reasons (even though i don't really RP).

Vampires were pretty strong in the beginning, maybe a little too strong, since then they have taken a good beating with the nerf hammer and now they feel like a collection of misadvantages with abilities that can't make up for that.

We take 50% more fire damage.
We have a 75% reduced health regen.
We're always in vampire form, so fighters guild abilities work on us at all times.

Of course there have to be some disadvantages, but what do we get for being so vulnerable?

Bat swarm
A good AOE that does damage and heals and sticks with you. But it got nerfed, first 25% less damage, then 30% less healing. Now it's not a real danger anymore. I can't remember the last time i died through bat swarm or really killed someone with it.

Drain Essence
Only useful in PVE, but not really worth replacing another skill with it. In PVP it rarely works. If the target is blocking or using immovable, the skill won't work. If you can really place it on a player, he just breaks out of it. After you used it once, even if it got cancelled immediately, you can't use it again on this target.

Mist Form
This used to be a good getaway move, before it was nerfed. Now you won't regen magicka while you're in mistform, which means you can't use it that much anymore and after several casts, you will be out of magicka and be very vulnerable.

We also have the feeding self-synergy, but it's so hard to place it in PVP and it does no damage, it only heals us and puts an unbreakable stun on the target. In 1.6 this will no longer be the case, since this patch makes the feeding synergy stun breakable. Obviously there were enough DKs that complained about other people having a counter to their invincibility. Thanks for that.

Then there are 6 passives, 2 of them are not worth taking: Savage feeding and blood ritual.

That's it, that's the vampire. There is not much that makes you feel like a vampire. Only 3 active skills? More looks like a party gimmick.

When i was testing stuff on the PTS i took a look at the WW skill line and was a little shocked, cause there were so many active skills and even though i haven't tested them, the option to fill an entire skillbar with these abilities is just amazing.

Why can't vampires have as many active abilities? This would allow us to really play a vampire and not just a hobby clown with some little tricks.

Here is a visual comparison of these 2 skill lines

That looks a little unfair to me, since we have to find someone that can bite us, or find npc vamps that bite us, then complete the vamp quest and live with our weaknesses and disadvantages AT ALL TIMES. We cannot toggle this on and off, we have to commit to this and stick with it.

This is not about making vamps OP, this is just about giving us more options to really play as a vampire, to make it feel like we're actual vampires.

Please no stupid vamp hate comments, please keep this discussion objective and constructive.

I'd also like to involve our spokeswoman @MornaBaine‌ in this discussion.

You used to have a great build before 1.6 and you were always on my kill log when you were zerging as you mowed over us. Now I think we killed you a dozen time or more with your band of well less effective zergers on Chill this last weekend. Since we now zerg we fight fire with fire and now you will have to update your build and decide whether the vamp is worth it. I am not trying to insult you it just that zerging takes zero skill and pushing two buttons was never going to last as a viable play style. Bats spamming has been the cornerstone of many of your guilds builds and now it doesn't do the damage it used to relative to the buffs from other abilities. To be really honest I called you out Friday or Saturday as a target for all of us to target in TS. My "crown" said she is no longer a factor". So now you know we call out targets one at a time and move on to the next person.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

gard · March 2015

that's because you can't spam it. But imagine 20 werewolves jumping you and tell me that this is not a problem.

20 of anything jumping me is going to be a problem. Unless they are Victoria's secret models.

Naor_Sarethi · March 2015

I had to cure my vamp because the up's weren't good enough to justify the downside.
Firedamage got insane and the Ult was hardly worth it anymore.
Generally it's all about kewl looks now, and RP wise there aren't any NPC vampire clans as it was in Morrowind or quests/items for Vampires only.
Alot of hype for nothing unless you want to cash 25k weekly for selling a bite

MADshadowman · March 2015

DHale wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

All my toons are vampires. I enjoy being a vampire, not only for the skills and passives, but also for RP reasons (even though i don't really RP).

Vampires were pretty strong in the beginning, maybe a little too strong, since then they have taken a good beating with the nerf hammer and now they feel like a collection of misadvantages with abilities that can't make up for that.

We take 50% more fire damage.
We have a 75% reduced health regen.
We're always in vampire form, so fighters guild abilities work on us at all times.

Of course there have to be some disadvantages, but what do we get for being so vulnerable?

Bat swarm
A good AOE that does damage and heals and sticks with you. But it got nerfed, first 25% less damage, then 30% less healing. Now it's not a real danger anymore. I can't remember the last time i died through bat swarm or really killed someone with it.

Drain Essence
Only useful in PVE, but not really worth replacing another skill with it. In PVP it rarely works. If the target is blocking or using immovable, the skill won't work. If you can really place it on a player, he just breaks out of it. After you used it once, even if it got cancelled immediately, you can't use it again on this target.

Mist Form
This used to be a good getaway move, before it was nerfed. Now you won't regen magicka while you're in mistform, which means you can't use it that much anymore and after several casts, you will be out of magicka and be very vulnerable.

We also have the feeding self-synergy, but it's so hard to place it in PVP and it does no damage, it only heals us and puts an unbreakable stun on the target. In 1.6 this will no longer be the case, since this patch makes the feeding synergy stun breakable. Obviously there were enough DKs that complained about other people having a counter to their invincibility. Thanks for that.

Then there are 6 passives, 2 of them are not worth taking: Savage feeding and blood ritual.

That's it, that's the vampire. There is not much that makes you feel like a vampire. Only 3 active skills? More looks like a party gimmick.

When i was testing stuff on the PTS i took a look at the WW skill line and was a little shocked, cause there were so many active skills and even though i haven't tested them, the option to fill an entire skillbar with these abilities is just amazing.

Why can't vampires have as many active abilities? This would allow us to really play a vampire and not just a hobby clown with some little tricks.

Here is a visual comparison of these 2 skill lines

That looks a little unfair to me, since we have to find someone that can bite us, or find npc vamps that bite us, then complete the vamp quest and live with our weaknesses and disadvantages AT ALL TIMES. We cannot toggle this on and off, we have to commit to this and stick with it.

This is not about making vamps OP, this is just about giving us more options to really play as a vampire, to make it feel like we're actual vampires.

Please no stupid vamp hate comments, please keep this discussion objective and constructive.

I'd also like to involve our spokeswoman @MornaBaine‌ in this discussion.

You used to have a great build before 1.6 and you were always on my kill log when you were zerging as you mowed over us. Now I think we killed you a dozen time or more with your band of well less effective zergers on Chill this last weekend. Since we now zerg we fight fire with fire and now you will have to update your build and decide whether the vamp is worth it. I am not trying to insult you it just that zerging takes zero skill and pushing two buttons was never going to last as a viable play style. Bats spamming has been the cornerstone of many of your guilds builds and now it doesn't do the damage it used to relative to the buffs from other abilities. To be really honest I called you out Friday or Saturday as a target for all of us to target in TS. My "crown" said she is no longer a factor". So now you know we call out targets one at a time and move on to the next person.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

What are you talking about? Are you talking to me? I was in chillrend for like 3 hours yesterday and never before. My build is good and updated and i haven't been using any vampire skills for months. But thanks for rambling nonsense and making up a story that 1. nobody cares about and 2. not even fits in this discussion.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]

Wulfgren · April 2015

gard wrote: »

that's because you can't spam it. But imagine 20 werewolves jumping you and tell me that this is not a problem.

20 of anything jumping me is going to be a problem. Unless they are Victoria's secret models.

LMFAO!!!!

MornaBaine · April 2015

"Blood" potions, please ZoS. These would keep you in your preferred Stage for 2 hours.

Audigy · April 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

Leon119 wrote: »

even if they buff vamps again evil hunter wrecks them so doesnt matter. Go in pvp slot evil hunter and you will notice half population is vampires. Makes you wonder why vampires are considered evil by the majority if they ARE the majority. I for one like having bright shiny targets in pvp. If u want to be a vampire you have to accept the weaknesses. Active skills may be nerfed but the passives are good too.
you should become a vamp because its something you want not because its better than being human

Haven't you read the thread?

We are playing vamps because we want to be vamps, not for the benefits. But in order to feel like a vampire, there need to be more abilities to choose from. Vampires are basically a sub class and classes need skills so you can actively play them. 3 abilities are not enough to really play as a vampire.

And we are accepting our weaknesses, we are actually asking for more in exchange for more abilities.

You might wanna read the thread, so your comments make sense and fit into this discussion.

So would you accept that as a Vampire walking in the sunlight is no longer possible? Would you accept that you can no longer walk on holy ground? Would you accept that your body is squishy and you can die easily by a simple stick falling down from a tree?

I don't know, but to feel like a vampire someone has to accept the downsides, but exactly there opinions differ greatly. I would love to have a vampire that actually plays like one, where I can not just pick flowers under the sun, but have to hide on day and walk through sewers. I would love to have an actual need for blood, to have a specific type of "out of control" thing. After all, Vampires are demons and nobody should be able to control those 24/7.
Sadly most "vampire" players would be totally against such things, as they indeed didn't pick the class due the vampire thing, but the strength of the char and Twilight lore.

Buffing or nerfing shouldn't be what we discuss here, its about the immersion, so that being a Vampire actually means something, something that has serious consequences and benefits. You gain the speed and regeneration, but you lose the sunlight and several quests in towns.

Code2501 · April 2015

Maybe I'm a minority but I never use any of the vampire spells, they feel too gimicky and miss-placed from a lore perspective. I embraced the gift for RP and because I pretty much always play at least one vamp character in ES games. Fat load of good that did me, when even Vampire NPC's fail to recognize me with appropriate dialogue (hint hint ZOS)

Personally I would have hoped TESO vampires were more in line with historical ES games. More passive traits, less active spells.
The passives for vampires though seem more penalty than buff.
Even with the unnatural resistance passive I am frequently sitting around only 1-200 HP/2s regen, and +40% fire damage even still really hurts. Not saying these weaknesses need to be reduced, but where is my illusion/stealth mastery?
Supernatural recovery is nothing to write home about and dark stalker is a minor quality of life benefit rather than real stealth mastery.
From a pvp perspective there's a whole fighters (read vampire hunters) guild to contend with, which is fine, but you can't pretend they aren't massive penalties to being embraced.

There should also be item sets and spells that specifically buff undead players like the saviours hide for WW. Should also be more WW gear, and "blessed" holy gear that cannot be used by undead.

Breg_Magol · April 2015

MornaBaine wrote: »

I DON'T want to play a Sorc with a couple "vampy" spells and a bad skin condition and weakness to fire. But that's what I have.

I totally agree ... I absolutely love your way with language MornaBaine! I'm so glad you speak for vampires!

Respect, Breg

MornaBaine · April 2015

Breg_Magol wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

I DON'T want to play a Sorc with a couple "vampy" spells and a bad skin condition and weakness to fire. But that's what I have.

I totally agree ... I absolutely love your way with language MornaBaine! I'm so glad you speak for vampires!

Respect, Breg

LOL Aw, thanks! Now if ZoS would just...you know... listen.

Vampires have the potential to be so amazing in this game, it just kind of breaks my heart that they were implemented half baked. But I continue to hope!

Haxer · April 2015

Yeah having 2 mediocre active abilities, and an ult, is really lame for all the disadvantages.

Roechacca · April 2015

I liked the idea of being able to charm people into letting them into their homes and feeding on them in order to create a Thrall or blood fiend temporary companion .

WraithAzraiel · April 2015

Somebody had mentioned it in another thread, can't remember who, but the idea of ZOS putting out an entire DLC that polishes and gives love to not only Vampires and Werewolves, making them much more robust and dynamic but also adding a few areas and quests specific to those skill lines and play styles as well as adding a Dawnguard skill and quest line to finally shut up all the haters.

I can get behind this idea.

ZiRM · April 2015

Never played one and probably never will for all the disadvantages it sounds like they have.
I hope ZOS makes become a Zombie skill line.

WraithAzraiel · April 2015

ZiRM wrote: »

Never played one and probably never will for all the disadvantages it sounds like they have.
I hope ZOS makes become a Zombie skill line.

Nooo, be a ghost.

j3crow · April 2015

gard wrote: »

that's because you can't spam it. But imagine 20 werewolves jumping you and tell me that this is not a problem.

20 of anything jumping me is going to be a problem. Unless they are Victoria's secret models.

At 20 of them, I think even that would be a problem

Vaerth · April 2015

ZOS_ShannonM wrote: »

Hello folks,
We have edited and removed multiple posts from this thread for rude and insulting comments as well as off topic comments.
It is never appropriate to resort to personal attacks and insults. We would like to allow this thread to continue, but to do so the Code of Conduct must be adhered to.
Thank you for understanding.

You come here for that but not to comment on the problem with Vampires in the game?

Agobi · April 2015

j3crow wrote: »

gard wrote: »

that's because you can't spam it. But imagine 20 werewolves jumping you and tell me that this is not a problem.

20 of anything jumping me is going to be a problem. Unless they are Victoria's secret models.

At 20 of them, I think even that would be a problem

Face the peril!

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtcSYPjJbgg]https://youtube.com/watch?v=DtcSYPjJbgg[/url]