Vampires - It's not enough

MornaBaine

In an effort to clear up some of the confusion....
A request for more skills to fill the bar with in the skill line does not necessarily equate to a request for buffs. Since vampires are vampires all the time (unlike werewolves apparently though I think they SHOULD keep both their passives and their weaknesses in human form) it makes sense to have enough vampire skills to fill both bars and 2 ultimates as well. Don't make them any stronger than anything else in the game but give us the option of playing fully as a vampire. That's what the OP is asking.

MADshadowman

MornaBaine wrote: »

In an effort to clear up some of the confusion....
A request for more skills to fill the bar with in the skill line does not necessarily equate to a request for buffs. Since vampires are vampires all the time (unlike werewolves apparently though I think they SHOULD keep both their passives and their weaknesses in human form) it makes sense to have enough vampire skills to fill both bars and 2 ultimates as well. Don't make them any stronger than anything else in the game but give us the option of playing fully as a vampire. That's what the OP is asking.

Morna is right. We just want more options, not more power.

MornaBaine

MADshadowman wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

In an effort to clear up some of the confusion....
A request for more skills to fill the bar with in the skill line does not necessarily equate to a request for buffs. Since vampires are vampires all the time (unlike werewolves apparently though I think they SHOULD keep both their passives and their weaknesses in human form) it makes sense to have enough vampire skills to fill both bars and 2 ultimates as well. Don't make them any stronger than anything else in the game but give us the option of playing fully as a vampire. That's what the OP is asking.

Morna is right. We just want more options, not more power.

Here's hoping for some Dawnguard-esque DLC at some point! Hmmm.... maybe we ought to dedicate a new thread to that?

MADshadowman

I think the first step should be to get ZOS to make a statement about our wish(es). i just want an official response to this thread.

Lazrael

I personally feel that both WW and Vamp need some work. Just a way to make them better fit into the game that, neither makes them a necessity, nor an easy target. But both should have a noticeable impact on play for those who choose to become them. Noticeable impact mind you, not insane power leap. It should make you have to play in a different way. Yeah it should offer you some advantages, but it also should somewhat confine your play-style.

But these things are always tricky to balance in a multiplayer game, where ideally there is an appeal for every play-style for every player.

That said. Yes, making Vamps more flavorful, fun to play and unique, would be greatly appreciated, seeing as on my Vamp the only time I really feel like a POWERFUL AND DANGEROUS VAMPIRE is when I cast Bat Storm, which is a solid but not EARTH SHATTERING ULT. Otherwise, the drain is just kind meh (slow wind up, not great in pvp, nothing special in pve), and I've never really found Mistform as anything to write home about.

There are ways to make Vampire feel more powerful, and well, VAMPIRIC, without actually making them gamebreakingly strong.

And I think that adding unique VAMPIRE (and Werewolf) ONLY, quests (with rewards only relevant to vamps and ww), locations, and housing would make a HUGE difference, but I also think we need to look at the source, i.e. the skill line itself.

The post 1.6 game is the perfect opportunity to begin to design and implement these changes.

phreatophile

Sorry to say, you will only get a response if you drop an F-bomb or two, and then only to the language. Vampire threads are ranked somewhere between requests for a My Little Pony mount and requests for a Gumby costume in ZOS's eyes.

technohic

roechacca wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

oren74 wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

Bat swarm
A good AOE that does damage and heals and sticks with you. But it got nerfed, first 25% less damage, then 30% less healing. Now it's not a real danger anymore. I can't remember the last time i died through bat swarm or really killed someone with it.
quote]

Ahhh, no. Batswarm is still a top 5 ultimate in the game for vamp NBs. Sap and bats, with tri-pots still makes me an virtually unkillable DPS machine for a time bats are running...with sap recharging ultimate at times enough to pop bats again if nobody throws a negate down.

1.6 that changes a bit with ultimate generation change, but we'll see.

We're not discussing classes + vamps here, this is only about vamps. And it is in no way stronger than other ultimates and the only negative effect on targets is that they take damage, nothing else happens. no stun, no root, no snare, no disorient, no fear, just damage and the damage can easily be outhealed or outshielded, or you can just run or dodge roll out of it. There is nothing really impressive about it. You need at least 4-5 people around you to get so much healing, that you're hard to kill, but with 4-5 people that are attacking you, you can still die pretty easily

Yes it's never been a problem .

http://youtu.be/Ucmjldufa6U



Oh wait .. It has an we should be careful .

Those who have not seen Dracula Untold yet; save your time as this video pretty much sums it up without all the boring stuff. (Yes; I know the video isn't all that exciting either)

EDIT (forgot my on topic part) Problem with Vamp is that there is so much focus on bat swarm without bothering to make the other stuff interesting. Really in stead of nerfing that so much, they needed to address the synergies in stead such as with talons or siphon or bolting through crowds with it. Could have just made it more like a channel where abilities could not be used during.

What else is there now that vamps do like to use though; other than bat swarm, mist form and the once popular feeding chain of unbreakable CC?

phreatophile

technohic wrote: »

What else is there now that vamps do like to use though; other than bat swarm, mist form and the once popular feeding chain of unbreakable CC?

Well, let's see. At the risk of being painfully obvious.

You've mentioned ALL 3 of our active slottable skills, so no, there isn't anything else. (That's why I really love the idea of Vampire style animations for some existing skills.)

Most of them have been nerfed really hard, without ever touching the actual root of the problem (broken Ult generation) until the 1.6 fixes. There is a reason why it was always Vamp DK Emps that were the biggest problem, but all the wailing and gnashing of teeth was always vampire this and vampire that. Quite simply, fixing the actual problem was always going to cost everybody instead of just vampires.

MornaBaine

phreatophile wrote: »

Sorry to say, you will only get a response if you drop an F-bomb or two, and then only to the language. Vampire threads are ranked somewhere between requests for a My Little Pony mount and requests for a Gumby costume in ZOS's eyes.

And I really wish I understood why that is. The frustration of being endlessly ignored on this topic is pretty high with vampire players and makes me wonder what ZOS is hoping to accomplish here.

WraithAzraiel

phreatophile wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

What else is there now that vamps do like to use though; other than bat swarm, mist form and the once popular feeding chain of unbreakable CC?

Well, let's see. At the risk of being painfully obvious.

You've mentioned ALL 3 of our active slottable skills, so no, there isn't anything else. (That's why I really love the idea of Vampire style animations for some existing skills.)

Most of them have been nerfed really hard, without ever touching the actual root of the problem (broken Ult generation) until the 1.6 fixes. There is a reason why it was always Vamp DK Emps that were the biggest problem, but all the wailing and gnashing of teeth was always vampire this and vampire that. Quite simply, fixing the actual problem was always going to cost everybody instead of just vampires.

EXACTLY

I've been saying this since the first batch of Vampire Nerfs. No matter WHAT nerf they hit the Vampire skill line, light armor wearing, stick/sword+board waving DK Vampires were still OP as frak.

And now after all that, I'm not even sure if they really understand that Vampire was never the problem. We'll see after 1.6 but here's to hoping all the Flavor of the Year builds end up dropping Vampire.


On another unrelated note, how long as everyone of us Vamp players had Vamp on their toons? Out of curiosity. I ran my dude up to Reaper's March at level 19 on day 2 of the early access.

phreatophile

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

On another unrelated note, how long as everyone of us Vamp players had Vamp on their toons? Out of curiosity. I ran my dude up to Reaper's March at level 19 on day 2 of the early access.

My first was at level 20ish in mid April 2014, I should have done what you did, by the time I got there, we were in the thick of the spawn killing/bite selling malarky and it took weeks to find a spawn without campers and get bit. To this day, beause of that, I still chime in with a free bite, if it's available, every time I see somebody getting offered one for gold. I usually make sure to explain why in zone chat as well, too. I love getting between a scammer and their mark.

Since then, I have 3 more that I grabbed at lvl 13 or 14.

MADshadowman

I became vamp when i was vr3, but don't know when exactly that was. probably in may or so. I have 5 veteran toons and they're all vampires.

MornaBaine

Hortator Mopa wrote: »

On another unrelated note, how long as everyone of us Vamp players had Vamp on their toons? Out of curiosity. I ran my dude up to Reaper's March at level 19 on day 2 of the early access.

My main (and first character rolled) has been a vampire since level 23 back at pre-lauch. I have one other that is in the 40s now. The rest are human. So yeah, lived through the cries of "Vamps are OP!" and suffered getting continually flattened with the nerf hammer while literally everything else about vampires that actually NEEDS adjustment has been ignored. Most of us here know whereof we speak.

Hortator Mopa

MornaBaine wrote: »

Hortator Mopa wrote: »

On another unrelated note, how long as everyone of us Vamp players had Vamp on their toons? Out of curiosity. I ran my dude up to Reaper's March at level 19 on day 2 of the early access.

My main (and first character rolled) has been a vampire since level 23 back at pre-lauch. I have one other that is in the 40s now. The rest are human. So yeah, lived through the cries of "Vamps are OP!" and suffered getting continually flattened with the nerf hammer while literally everything else about vampires that actually NEEDS adjustment has been ignored. Most of us here know whereof we speak.

I did not post this, why are you quoting me.

MornaBaine

Hortator Mopa wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Hortator Mopa wrote: »

On another unrelated note, how long as everyone of us Vamp players had Vamp on their toons? Out of curiosity. I ran my dude up to Reaper's March at level 19 on day 2 of the early access.

My main (and first character rolled) has been a vampire since level 23 back at pre-lauch. I have one other that is in the 40s now. The rest are human. So yeah, lived through the cries of "Vamps are OP!" and suffered getting continually flattened with the nerf hammer while literally everything else about vampires that actually NEEDS adjustment has been ignored. Most of us here know whereof we speak.

I did not post this, why are you quoting me.

No idea why it did it that way.

Valmond

Vampires (and werewolves) need an overhaul.
As is, they are too shallow, have little to no impact to your playstyle and (apart from batswarm) too weak (and have too few drawbacks).

The stuff they give are largely just additional skills, which are mostly no better than any other skill (and with vampires, apart from bat swarm, are weak and extremely situational to the point of being useless).

The "attack on sight at stage 4" idea (in/when implemented) is a step in right direction, but nowhere near enough.

WraithAzraiel

Hortator Mopa wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Hortator Mopa wrote: »

On another unrelated note, how long as everyone of us Vamp players had Vamp on their toons? Out of curiosity. I ran my dude up to Reaper's March at level 19 on day 2 of the early access.

My main (and first character rolled) has been a vampire since level 23 back at pre-lauch. I have one other that is in the 40s now. The rest are human. So yeah, lived through the cries of "Vamps are OP!" and suffered getting continually flattened with the nerf hammer while literally everything else about vampires that actually NEEDS adjustment has been ignored. Most of us here know whereof we speak.

I did not post this, why are you quoting me.

Forums are broken, when you quote somebody that quoted somebody it quotes the person that the other somebody quoted.


Wrap your mind around that one.

dafox187

[hushed mumble] dirty vampires

Cody

WWs are not comparable to vampires. WWs can only use their abilities in WW form, which only lasts for a short amount of time.

Cody

starkerealm wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

dafox187 wrote: »

[hushed mumble] dirty vampires

Keep stuff like this out of this thread. first warning.

Dafox, you say?

Cody wrote: »

WWs are not comparable to vampires. WWs can only use their abilities in WW form, which only lasts for a short amount of time.

And have no downside with +15% stamina regen the rest... I might be missing the point, sorry.

WWs DO have downsides.

When they go into WW form; they take 50% extra poison damage; meaning any archer that uses venom arrow or poison injection(which is a lot of people) will tear them apart. Its the main reason I rarely ever used my WW form in PVP.

and again, they can only use their abilities in WW form, which can only be activated by a 400 point ultimate, which lasts for a tiny amount of time; which all cost stamina save the self heal; meaning only most-full on stamina builds can benefit.

Lazrael

I feel like this has turned into a WW vs Vamps discussion that it was never intended to be.

MADshadowman

Lazrael wrote: »

I feel like this has turned into a WW vs Vamps discussion that it was never intended to be.

Yeah, it's really just about vampires, but of course there are always people that bring the ww issues up. I think it's better to put ww related stuff in a separate thread.

MornaBaine

Lazrael wrote: »

I feel like this has turned into a WW vs Vamps discussion that it was never intended to be.

The thing is that they share a lot of similarities, the most notable of which is that they were (and remain!) very poorly implemented and those who play them really wish they were more fun. Yet any and all suggestions on how to MAKE them more fun continue to fall on deaf ears.

Supernaturals of ESO, unite already! LOL

WraithAzraiel

MornaBaine wrote: »

Lazrael wrote: »

I feel like this has turned into a WW vs Vamps discussion that it was never intended to be.

The thing is that they share a lot of similarities, the most notable of which is that they were (and remain!) very poorly implemented and those who play them really wish they were more fun. Yet any and all suggestions on how to MAKE them more fun continue to fall on deaf ears.

Supernaturals of ESO, unite already! LOL

Did....someone say...Supernatural?

Nebthet78

I"M BAAAAACK!!!!

Glad to see you keeping up the fight Morna and that we have some additional members to the 'lets make vampires better' army on here.

While I have taken a break for the last couple of months, I have been reading the threads and there have been a lot of great ideas brought up that could be worked into the game. There were a few times that it sucked not being subscribed so I could come on and comment, but was glad to see MADshadowman actually coming on and basically saying what I wanted to for the most part.

It would be really nice to be able to gain additional skill lines, based on available lore and doing quests to open up and expand our vampire characters and just make the game more dynamic for us players. Unfortunately, I doubt it will ever happen, but we can still hope, there are plenty of areas on the map that need to open up.

I agree Morna, I would LOVE to see a quest where we find out what happened to Verandis and go back to Coldharbour to rescue him after he delivered the thing to Molag Bal. I like to imagine that another Daedra intervened and he didn't make it to his master but is imprisoned in another Daedric realm.

At least with the crown store soon to be implemented, hopefully we can at least convince them to make us a disguise/costume just for vampires that we have been asking for for nearly six months or so. Something that can hide us, or act as an illusion so that we look normal. That way, all those people who like the Justice System can stop complaining about seeing vamps everywhere and the guards not doing anything about it.

MADshadowman

Nebthet78 wrote: »

I"M BAAAAACK!!!!

Glad to see you keeping up the fight Morna and that we have some additional members to the 'lets make vampires better' army on here.

While I have taken a break for the last couple of months, I have been reading the threads and there have been a lot of great ideas brought up that could be worked into the game. There were a few times that it sucked not being subscribed so I could come on and comment, but was glad to see MADshadowman actually coming on and basically saying what I wanted to for the most part.

It would be really nice to be able to gain additional skill lines, based on available lore and doing quests to open up and expand our vampire characters and just make the game more dynamic for us players. Unfortunately, I doubt it will ever happen, but we can still hope, there are plenty of areas on the map that need to open up.

I agree Morna, I would LOVE to see a quest where we find out what happened to Verandis and go back to Coldharbour to rescue him after he delivered the thing to Molag Bal. I like to imagine that another Daedra intervened and he didn't make it to his master but is imprisoned in another Daedric realm.

At least with the crown store soon to be implemented, hopefully we can at least convince them to make us a disguise/costume just for vampires that we have been asking for for nearly six months or so. Something that can hide us, or act as an illusion so that we look normal. That way, all those people who like the Justice System can stop complaining about seeing vamps everywhere and the guards not doing anything about it.

Glad you're back, we need every voice on this topic!

Lokryn

In ESO Live on 2/27, they actually referred to Morna's question about what is being added for vampires and their answer was a huge letdown. All they mentioned was the change to fire vulnerability in 1.6. WTF ZOS? That's all you can say considering all the feedback?

Vizier

MADshadowman wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

It's understood that vampires, when they were KNOWN, were despised and feared in all the previous TES games. But because until they hit Stage 4 there's an element of doubt, they just got the odd comment. That's what I would like to see in ESO. The funy and sometimes cautiously hostile comments in Stage 3, KOS in Stage 4 because at that point it becomes impossible to hide what you are. But this would force ZOS to make some changes to the Stage Timers which they are apparently too lazy to do.

Yeah but what about full helmets and masks? How does a guard know you're a vampire if he can't see your skin or your face?

i would find it immersion breaking if suddenly everyone knows what you are, even though they can't really see it.

And i think the duration of the stages should be way way way longer, not just half an hour or 2 hours. More like 1-2 ingame days. So it's not so easy to go back to stage 4 and get the cost reduction if you have fed on someone. this would force us to commit to stage 4 or the stages below and not be stage hoppers.

Guards have always been Psychic in TES. Duh.

MornaBaine

Vizier wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

It's understood that vampires, when they were KNOWN, were despised and feared in all the previous TES games. But because until they hit Stage 4 there's an element of doubt, they just got the odd comment. That's what I would like to see in ESO. The funy and sometimes cautiously hostile comments in Stage 3, KOS in Stage 4 because at that point it becomes impossible to hide what you are. But this would force ZOS to make some changes to the Stage Timers which they are apparently too lazy to do.

Yeah but what about full helmets and masks? How does a guard know you're a vampire if he can't see your skin or your face?

i would find it immersion breaking if suddenly everyone knows what you are, even though they can't really see it.

And i think the duration of the stages should be way way way longer, not just half an hour or 2 hours. More like 1-2 ingame days. So it's not so easy to go back to stage 4 and get the cost reduction if you have fed on someone. this would force us to commit to stage 4 or the stages below and not be stage hoppers.

Guards have always been Psychic in TES. Duh.

Sadly true. But frankly I'd be happier with guards who have some sort of mystical detect undead skill over the guards who stand there nonchalantly with a fully transformed werewolf howling in their face and they're all like, "Move along citizen.. move along." Drives me freakin' crazy.

MornaBaine

Nebthet78 wrote: »

I"M BAAAAACK!!!!

Glad to see you keeping up the fight Morna and that we have some additional members to the 'lets make vampires better' army on here.

While I have taken a break for the last couple of months, I have been reading the threads and there have been a lot of great ideas brought up that could be worked into the game. There were a few times that it sucked not being subscribed so I could come on and comment, but was glad to see MADshadowman actually coming on and basically saying what I wanted to for the most part.

It would be really nice to be able to gain additional skill lines, based on available lore and doing quests to open up and expand our vampire characters and just make the game more dynamic for us players. Unfortunately, I doubt it will ever happen, but we can still hope, there are plenty of areas on the map that need to open up.

I agree Morna, I would LOVE to see a quest where we find out what happened to Verandis and go back to Coldharbour to rescue him after he delivered the thing to Molag Bal. I like to imagine that another Daedra intervened and he didn't make it to his master but is imprisoned in another Daedric realm.

At least with the crown store soon to be implemented, hopefully we can at least convince them to make us a disguise/costume just for vampires that we have been asking for for nearly six months or so. Something that can hide us, or act as an illusion so that we look normal. That way, all those people who like the Justice System can stop complaining about seeing vamps everywhere and the guards not doing anything about it.

Welcome back dearie! And I realllly hope you are right about the Crown Store goodies even though part of me will still resent that because it's just another lazy way to address the issue and doesn't deal with all the broken mechanics of vampires and the lack of abilities to fill out the vampire bar. Still, at this point I guess I'll take what I can get. *cries bitterly*