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Vampires - It's not enough
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MornaBaine✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WraithAzraiel wrote: »MornaBaine wrote: »I feel like this has turned into a WW vs Vamps discussion that it was never intended to be.
The thing is that they share a lot of similarities, the most notable of which is that they were (and remain!) very poorly implemented and those who play them really wish they were more fun. Yet any and all suggestions on how to MAKE them more fun continue to fall on deaf ears.
Supernaturals of ESO, unite already! LOL
Did....someone say...Supernatural?
ROFL! I needed that! Thanks!PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!0 -
MADshadowman✭✭✭✭✭Yeah, what they said in ESO love was basically:
They're thinking about making vampires only weak to fire for a certain amount of time after they used a vampire ability.
This is so wrong on so many levels. Nobody asked for that. And this doesn't make sense at all. We wanna keep our weaknesses, but our skill line needs to be expanded so we can actually be vampires and not just a class with 3 vampire gimmicks.
I don't understand how they can come up with such an idea. Why is it so hard to look into this thread and pick up some of the ideas here? It's always this "WE think there's nothing wrong with that", "WE think this is ok the way it is". Yeah, but WE - the vampire community don't think so, and we have to play them everyday and don't like the way it is.
Pleeeease please take a look at this thread and start to communicate with us.2 -
Lazrael✭✭✭MornaBaine wrote: »I feel like this has turned into a WW vs Vamps discussion that it was never intended to be.
The thing is that they share a lot of similarities, the most notable of which is that they were (and remain!) very poorly implemented and those who play them really wish they were more fun. Yet any and all suggestions on how to MAKE them more fun continue to fall on deaf ears.
Supernaturals of ESO, unite already! LOL
Oh I definitely agree with you there, and I am (or at least wish I was) amazed to see that there has yet to be a single post from ZOS after this thread has reached the ten page mark. But what I'm saying is, the comparing Vamps to WW discussion in an us vs them sort of way, is both nonconstructive and goes against the intention of this discussion. If anything, we should be addressing the problems with both, equally. As you said, a more SUPERNATURALS UNITE! attitude, as opposed to a
Twilight-esque Werewolves vs Vampires one (shudder).
I don't understand what they are thinking with removing fire weakness. It flies in the face of the lore, and if anything makes Vampires less flavorful. Playing a Vampire or Werewolf should be a meaningful choice for the player, from either a role play or strategic build perspective, ideally both. It should open up more options, powers, and role play opportunities, to the player, while also somewhat constricting their play style. From a design perspective, its all about balancing risk and reward. It should never be something that's an obvious must have skill line. Nor should it be something that no player would be interested in, due to it being completely lack luster, unnecessary, or gimped.
Changing fire damage on Vamps, in the way they have described, will only make the class more bland and uninteresting. It will become just another item on a check list. "Acquire Vampirism for the the nice passives..... check." Terrible design choice, and it reeks of laziness. Its just another way to cut corners, and put a band-aid on the issue while avoiding actually addressing and correcting it, a practice that has unfortunately seemed to become the norm.
Artists and Theives...2 -
MADshadowman✭✭✭✭✭MornaBaine wrote: »I feel like this has turned into a WW vs Vamps discussion that it was never intended to be.
The thing is that they share a lot of similarities, the most notable of which is that they were (and remain!) very poorly implemented and those who play them really wish they were more fun. Yet any and all suggestions on how to MAKE them more fun continue to fall on deaf ears.
Supernaturals of ESO, unite already! LOL
Oh I definitely agree with you there, and I am (or at least wish I was) amazed to see that there has yet to be a single post from ZOS after this thread has reached the ten page mark. But what I'm saying is, the comparing Vamps to WW discussion in an us vs them sort of way, is both nonconstructive and goes against the intention of this discussion. If anything, we should be addressing the problems with both, equally. As you said, a more SUPERNATURALS UNITE! attitude, as opposed to a
Twilight-esque Werewolves vs Vampires one (shudder).
I don't understand what they are thinking with removing fire weakness. It flies in the face of the lore, and if anything makes Vampires less flavorful. Playing a Vampire or Werewolf should be a meaningful choice for the player, from either a role play or strategic build perspective, ideally both. It should open up more options, powers, and role play opportunities, to the player, while also somewhat constricting their play style. From a design perspective, its all about balancing risk and reward. It should never be something that's an obvious must have skill line. Nor should it be something that no player would be interested in, due to it being completely lack luster, unnecessary, or gimped.
Changing fire damage on Vamps, in the way they have described, will only make the class more bland and uninteresting. It will become just another item on a check list. "Acquire Vampirism for the the nice passives..... check." Terrible design choice, and it reeks of laziness. Its just another way to cut corners, and put a band-aid on the issue while avoiding actually addressing and correcting it, a practice that has unfortunately seemed to become the norm.
yes, yes and yes.
also yes.1 -
MornaBaine✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MADshadowman wrote: »Yeah, what they said in ESO love was basically:
They're thinking about making vampires only weak to fire for a certain amount of time after they used a vampire ability.
This is so wrong on so many levels. Nobody asked for that. And this doesn't make sense at all. We wanna keep our weaknesses, but our skill line needs to be expanded so we can actually be vampires and not just a class with 3 vampire gimmicks.
I don't understand how they can come up with such an idea. Why is it so hard to look into this thread and pick up some of the ideas here? It's always this "WE think there's nothing wrong with that", "WE think this is ok the way it is". Yeah, but WE - the vampire community don't think so, and we have to play them everyday and don't like the way it is.
Pleeeease please take a look at this thread and start to communicate with us.
So agreed! It's like every time it's, "I guess we have to do something about vampires."
"OK well there's like 20 threads with detailed ideas about what should be done by the people who actually play them to make them better and more engaging."
"Nah."PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!2 -
Fizzlewizzle✭✭✭✭Both Vampires and Werewolves need some changes (Vampires a bit more then werewolves) neither has enough advantages, as well as drawbacks.
My personal view, Starting with the Werewolves:
Drawback:
Ultimate Price should be increased, 500-750.
Poison weakness (as it is)
Fighters guild weakness (as it is now)
Advantages:
Human Form:
+15% Stamina Regeneration (as it is now).
Werewolf Form:
Increased Werewolf form time (minimum 3-5 minutes), Each defour gives 30 seconds - 1 minute.
Increased Stamina Regeneration (30%).
Increased Health Regeneration (15%).
Resistance against Knockdown and Rooting (25/50%).
Increased damage while in werewolf form (25/50%).
Restore 10% Health and Stamina while feeding.
Reduced Magicka Regeneration (50/75%).
The skills they have are pretty okey.
As for Vampires:
Drawback:
Fire Weakness depending on stage (25/50/75/100%)
Reduced Health Regeneration (as it is now)
Fighters guild Weakness (as it is now)
Advantages:
Increased Magicka regeneration based on stage (15/30/45/60%)
Increased Movement speed while sneaking (as it is now)
Decreased size of own detection radius based on stage (10/20/30/40%)
Increased detection radius based on stage (10/20/30/40%)
Bleed damage will heal them for 25% of the damage done.
Vampire skills will be TWICE as effective during the night.
As for the skills:
Bat Swarm and Morphs, could stay as it is now.
Drain Essence: Becomes a long Ranged spell like Entropy. Low damage (no Stun), High health recovery over time.
- Invigorating Drain: Recover moderate Health, Stamina and Magicka over time.
- Accelerated Drain: Like Drain essence, but will also hit up to 3 enemies if they are close enough to the target.
Mist Form: Same as current Mist form:
- Elusive mist: Target becomes completely invisible, and high movement speed increase.
- Red Mist: Instead of Poison damage (like the current Poison Mist has) the Mist will cause bleed damage (which will allow the user to heal themselves).
For new skills maybe summon skills, Skills that boost players around them/ fellow Vampires?
Mending-The-Wounded, Aldmeri Dominion, Templar.3 -
Valmond✭✭✭I'd actually prefer they get rid of batswarm completely, make a active skill like the sorcerer lightning form instead (no, or extremely reduced, healing) and make more interesting Ultimate skill (possibly vampire lord form, further morphed into stamina or magicka based variants).0
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MADshadowman✭✭✭✭✭Fizzlewizzle wrote: »Both Vampires and Werewolves need some changes (Vampires a bit more then werewolves) neither has enough advantages, as well as drawbacks.
My personal view, Starting with the Werewolves:
Drawback:
Ultimate Price should be increased, 500-750.
Poison weakness (as it is)
Fighters guild weakness (as it is now)
Advantages:
Human Form:
+15% Stamina Regeneration (as it is now).
Werewolf Form:
Increased Werewolf form time (minimum 3-5 minutes), Each defour gives 30 seconds - 1 minute.
Increased Stamina Regeneration (30%).
Increased Health Regeneration (15%).
Resistance against Knockdown and Rooting (25/50%).
Increased damage while in werewolf form (25/50%).
Restore 10% Health and Stamina while feeding.
Reduced Magicka Regeneration (50/75%).
The skills they have are pretty okey.
As for Vampires:
Drawback:
Fire Weakness depending on stage (25/50/75/100%)
Reduced Health Regeneration (as it is now)
Fighters guild Weakness (as it is now)
Advantages:
Increased Magicka regeneration based on stage (15/30/45/60%)
Increased Movement speed while sneaking (as it is now)
Decreased size of own detection radius based on stage (10/20/30/40%)
Increased detection radius based on stage (10/20/30/40%)
Bleed damage will heal them for 25% of the damage done.
Vampire skills will be TWICE as effective during the night.
As for the skills:
Bat Swarm and Morphs, could stay as it is now.
Drain Essence: Becomes a long Ranged spell like Entropy. Low damage (no Stun), High health recovery over time.
- Invigorating Drain: Recover moderate Health, Stamina and Magicka over time.
- Accelerated Drain: Like Drain essence, but will also hit up to 3 enemies if they are close enough to the target.
Mist Form: Same as current Mist form:
- Elusive mist: Target becomes completely invisible, and high movement speed increase.
- Red Mist: Instead of Poison damage (like the current Poison Mist has) the Mist will cause bleed damage (which will allow the user to heal themselves).
For new skills maybe summon skills, Skills that boost players around them/ fellow Vampires?
100% fire weakness is too much, that wouldn't be balanced. 50% already hurt a lot and this should be the maximum. Since we get 40% in 1.6, 10%/20%/30%/40% would make more sense.1 -
Fizzlewizzle✭✭✭✭I'd actually prefer they get rid of batswarm completely, make a active skill like the sorcerer lightning form instead (no, or extremely reduced, healing) and make more interesting Ultimate skill (possibly vampire lord form, further morphed into stamina or magicka based variants).
Vampire Lord would be cool, but it should have some big bonuses since a vampire is always walking with his weakness exposed (unlike a Werewolf). It would make Vampires something special.Mending-The-Wounded, Aldmeri Dominion, Templar.1 -
MADshadowman✭✭✭✭✭Fizzlewizzle wrote: »I'd actually prefer they get rid of batswarm completely, make a active skill like the sorcerer lightning form instead (no, or extremely reduced, healing) and make more interesting Ultimate skill (possibly vampire lord form, further morphed into stamina or magicka based variants).
Vampire Lord would be cool, but it should have some big bonuses since a vampire is always walking with his weakness exposed (unlike a Werewolf). It would make Vampires something special.
Nah, then everyone would be a vampire lord. Would you feel special with a hundred other vampire lords around you?0 -
Fizzlewizzle✭✭✭✭MADshadowman wrote: »Fizzlewizzle wrote: »I'd actually prefer they get rid of batswarm completely, make a active skill like the sorcerer lightning form instead (no, or extremely reduced, healing) and make more interesting Ultimate skill (possibly vampire lord form, further morphed into stamina or magicka based variants).
Vampire Lord would be cool, but it should have some big bonuses since a vampire is always walking with his weakness exposed (unlike a Werewolf). It would make Vampires something special.
Nah, then everyone would be a vampire lord. Would you feel special with a hundred other vampire lords around you?
With the changes to Evil Hunter and such, i don't really know if there will be a lot of Vampires in PvP.
You don't see a lot of Werewolves either, so i think that for Vampire Lords the same will be happening.Mending-The-Wounded, Aldmeri Dominion, Templar.0 -
Vaerth✭✭✭✭This game is already Twilight Online. I think both vamp and WW should be nerfed.
More like Underworld to me, these werewolves walk up right and the vampires do not glitter...
Perhaps we are not playing the same ESO? I expect that you see glitter vampires based on your movie reference correct?Pact Bloodwraith0 -
MADshadowman✭✭✭✭✭This game is already Twilight Online. I think both vamp and WW should be nerfed.
More like Underworld to me, these werewolves walk up right and the vampires do not glitter...
Perhaps we are not playing the same ESO? I expect that you see glitter vampires based on your movie reference correct?
It's ok, they don't know any other vampires. They think those twilight dudes are vampires, but everyone who knows at least a little about these creatures, knows that they are far from everything that resembles a vampire.0 -
Shlankwald✭✭✭I can agree with this, vampires have disadvantages all around. Mist form i find useless, theirs better defense buffs without the downside. Drain essence can only be used on normal mobs, and since normal mobs are so easy, it feels wasted. The AoE ult is the only thing i find useful, and even then its not worth the multitude of downsides that accompany it. The vamp has many disadvantages and excels at nothing. furthermore neither of his two moves sync well with most builds. I don't feel we need a lot of abilities, just i'd be fine if the other two were completely changed, maybe add in one more.
@Lynx7386 I can sort of agree, werewolves are only useful if you take up their ultimate slot, but that just makes sense imo, werewolf shouldnt affect you unless you transform for the most part (then again, it would be nice to give you access to your magic abilities at least). However, as it stands the vamp ult is about the only useful thing in that skill tree atm, so we're sort of in the same boat.2 -
MornaBaine✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Shlankwald wrote: »I can agree with this, vampires have disadvantages all around. Mist form i find useless, theirs better defense buffs without the downside. Drain essence can only be used on normal mobs, and since normal mobs are so easy, it feels wasted. The AoE ult is the only thing i find useful, and even then its not worth the multitude of downsides that accompany it. The vamp has many disadvantages and excels at nothing. furthermore neither of his two moves sync well with most builds. I don't feel we need a lot of abilities, just i'd be fine if the other two were completely changed, maybe add in one more.
@Lynx7386 I can sort of agree, werewolves are only useful if you take up their ultimate slot, but that just makes sense imo, werewolf shouldnt affect you unless you transform for the most part (then again, it would be nice to give you access to your magic abilities at least). However, as it stands the vamp ult is about the only useful thing in that skill tree atm, so we're sort of in the same boat.
Agreed. Our poor lackluster vampires need a major revamp and I want to see it definitively on ZOS's roadmap as one of the first things to get attention after their precious console release.PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!1 -
phreatophile✭✭✭✭✭
✭Shlankwald wrote: »I can agree with this, vampires have disadvantages all around. Mist form i find useless, theirs better defense buffs without the downside. Drain essence can only be used on normal mobs, and since normal mobs are so easy, it feels wasted. The AoE ult is the only thing i find useful, and even then its not worth the multitude of downsides that accompany it. The vamp has many disadvantages and excels at nothing. furthermore neither of his two moves sync well with most builds. I don't feel we need a lot of abilities, just i'd be fine if the other two were completely changed, maybe add in one more.
@Lynx7386 I can sort of agree, werewolves are only useful if you take up their ultimate slot, but that just makes sense imo, werewolf shouldnt affect you unless you transform for the most part (then again, it would be nice to give you access to your magic abilities at least). However, as it stands the vamp ult is about the only useful thing in that skill tree atm, so we're sort of in the same boat.
Exactly. I only ever use drain in order to level the skill line. Swarm is useful for grinding mobs and not a heck of a lot else since you need a lot of targets to get anything out of it.
@Morna, I agree, but at this point we need much more than a revamp, the skill line and the associated (terrible) lore needs to be swept clean and rebuilt from the ground up.2 -
WraithAzraiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hortator Mopa wrote: »
I don't agree with that. I don't think they should be nerfed but I do believe NOT being either a Vampire or a Werewolf should be JUST as attractive as being one would be.
IE: Making them all equal in power. Weaker in some areas, stronger in others.
A rework is in order, but nerfing? No. They already tried that, it didn't take. It didn't solve anything, people still found a way to be ***.
They all need some TLC and balancing. That's all.Shendell De'Gull - V14 Vampire Nightblade
Captain of the Black Howling
"There's no such thing as overkill..."
"No problem on the face of the Earth exists what can't be fixed with the proper application of enough duct tape and 550 cord."
P2PBetaTesters
#Tamriel_BETA_Team
#BETA_TESTER4LYF
DominionMasterRace
#GOAHEADTHEYGOTCANDY
#SEEMSLEGIT2 -
Zhoyzu✭✭✭✭✭
more options? you mean limited to a specific 5 skills regardless.MADshadowman wrote: »Changes are coming in 1.6 . WW template comparison isn't relevant imo . Their template is only available while transformed . That isn't a very long duration either .
That is true, but you have more variety when you are in ww form and if you're not in ww form, you don't have disadvantages, but you have +15% stam regen.
No comparing vamp to WW is a bad comparison. I agree Vamp is a little underwhelming atm but you cant compare the two.
Zhoyzu - Nightblade Alchemist (v15) RETIRED
Has-No-Heart - Templar Enchanter (v4) FUBAR
Ambadassador - Dragon knight (v1) Naked with no future (returned from the naked realm to tank PvE)
Sakis Tolis - Sorceror (v10 in progress) Living Legend!
Xuhl'Xotuun - Warden Current Main as im starting the game over essentially with this character aside from crafting.
Creator of Khajiit fall dmg reduction racial passive concept.0 -
Hortator Mopa✭✭✭✭In the end being a vampire or WW should NOT make you any stronger then someone who is neither.
Not at SINGLE TINY BIT stronger at all...0 -
Fizzlewizzle✭✭✭✭
Then what would being a Werewolf or Vampire have for benefits?Hortator Mopa wrote: »In the end being a vampire or WW should NOT make you any stronger then someone who is neither.
Not at SINGLE TINY BIT stronger at all...
"here you have some weaknesses, but don't think you get any benefits".
Its should be a two sided blade, you DO become stronger, but the amount of things that will hurt you will increase.
Currently neither has any real benefits. Werewolves lose their ulti bar and become weaker when they transform, and vampires get blown away by fire, but they can sneak a bit faster (which everyone can do with a 2 trait armor set). Not really a valid trade-off.Mending-The-Wounded, Aldmeri Dominion, Templar.1 -
MornaBaine✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Vamp thinks WW has it better...
Oh no, I don't think anyone believes that. The comparison may not be a fair one since werewolves only get their full abilities briefly while their Ultimate is running but the point the OP was making was that they do actually have enough abilities to fill out their bar whereas vampires do not. But everyone pretty much knows BOTH vampires and werewolves need a serious reworking.PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!1 -
Hortator Mopa✭✭✭✭Fizzlewizzle wrote: »
Then what would being a Werewolf or Vampire have for benefits?Hortator Mopa wrote: »In the end being a vampire or WW should NOT make you any stronger then someone who is neither.
Not at SINGLE TINY BIT stronger at all...
"here you have some weaknesses, but don't think you get any benefits".
Its should be a two sided blade, you DO become stronger, but the amount of things that will hurt you will increase.
Currently neither has any real benefits. Werewolves lose their ulti bar and become weaker when they transform, and vampires get blown away by fire, but they can sneak a bit faster (which everyone can do with a 2 trait armor set). Not really a valid trade-off.
No it should just be a game puffer, once you start being stupid and putting in benefits and cons people do EXACTLY what is happening in this thread now.
Its lame, Its done badly and should be puff not game changing.0 -
MADshadowman✭✭✭✭✭Hortator Mopa wrote: »In the end being a vampire or WW should NOT make you any stronger then someone who is neither.
Not at SINGLE TINY BIT stronger at all...
Once again you prove you know nothing about vampires. Vampires have always been stronger than humans. They have their weaknesses, but they are powerful creatures. This is how this whole vampire concept works.
You have a strong mythical creature that is very dangerous, but you balance it out by giving it some weaknesses.
I think you should go read some classic vampire stories, so you understand what a vampire actually is.1 -
Fizzlewizzle✭✭✭✭Anyway, At @MADshadowman , the idea of what vampires and werewolves can do is a bit messy with the current lore. Unlike Skyrim (no idea about the other ES games) you can't make silver weapons to fight the Werewolves. For Vampires they could add the old Day and Night Cycle, but idk what for effect that would have on the game (most dungeons could be considered night).
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]Edited by ZOS_MichelleA on March 7, 2015 5:39PMMending-The-Wounded, Aldmeri Dominion, Templar.0 -
MADshadowman✭✭✭✭✭Fizzlewizzle wrote: »Anyway, At @MADshadowman , the idea of what vampires and werewolves can do is a bit messy with the current lore. Unlike Skyrim (no idea about the other ES games) you can't make silver weapons to fight the Werewolves. For Vampires they could add the old Day and Night Cycle, but idk what for effect that would have on the game (most dungeons could be considered night).
Well, we have silver bolts from the fighters guild tree, that's maybe the only silver we will get.
With our vampire strain, a day and night cycle could only have advantages for us, cause we don't weaken in sunlight but get stronger at night. That would mean, we could maybe get more health regen or stronger skills at night. But generally i'm not a huge fan of day and night cycles, at least not til the foundation of vampirism gets fixed and improved.
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]Edited by ZOS_MichelleA on March 7, 2015 5:39PM0 -
bloodenragedb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭i agree with most of the gripes, problem is, as a company, admitting they were wrong would look bad. so while all these statements hold some truth, and certianly in a ideal world our concerns would be taken seriously, they wont be, and all in order for zos to save face.
honestly, i trust companies that are willing to admit they were wrong more.1 -
Leon119✭✭✭✭even if they buff vamps again evil hunter wrecks them so doesnt matter. Go in pvp slot evil hunter and you will notice half population is vampires. Makes you wonder why vampires are considered evil by the majority if they ARE the majority. I for one like having bright shiny targets in pvp. If u want to be a vampire you have to accept the weaknesses. Active skills may be nerfed but the passives are good too.
you should become a vamp because its something you want not because its better than being human0 -
Valmond✭✭✭bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »i agree with most of the gripes, problem is, as a company, admitting they were wrong would look bad.
Admitting they were wrong, and then working to fix things, would not only not "look bad", but would actually be exact opposite and make them "look good" to most people.
Constantly claiming "everythings fine" while everyone knows things are not fine, just makes them look, at best, childish and arrogant.0
