Champion System needs revamp or going to kill the game

TehMagnus · March 2015

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/149933/why-champion-system-will-kill-the-game-if-its-implemented-as-is <= I posted the same title stating it would lead to situations like yours before 1.6 was even live.

ZRage · March 2015

I tend to agree even I'm more of a hardcore player, but still there should be some boost to CP for casuals, like bonus for those who play less than XX hour a day or week. Otherwise the gap is gonna be huge.

Or at very least enlightment bonus for new players should be much bigger (max pool), should be increased the longer the game exist. Enlightment could just stack even for non existent account, otherwise if someone jumps in into the game in let's say 2 months from today, jumps into cyrodil with all this people with 300-400 CP no battle spirit will help him having moments of fun.

The thing is new players with current design will have trouble closing the gap even if they are let's say "skilled" in managing they game time efficiently.

glavius · March 2015

Except they still get higher stats with more champ points after the first 1k

Mathius_Mordred · March 2015

There is a simple solution to this. CP system is disabled in pvp. Now everyone is on an equal footing.

jeevin · March 2015

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

There is a simple solution to this. CP system is disabled in pvp. Now everyone is on an equal footing.

Or Cp system is scrapped altogether because if content is doable at VR14 anyway, who needs it? The whole Cp thing reeks of hamster wheel grind syndrome. Jump on and buy our xp boosters or stop playing. It's totally ridiculous.

Jando · March 2015

I agree with the OP. I've been shouting similar concepts in this forum since day 1 of the 1.6 PTS.

Mumyo · March 2015

give it a weekly cap. Pvp will have nothing to do with skill anymore if zos doesnt put a stop to this. i made 1 CP till now, i will be screwed in pvp because i prefer pvp instead of grinding.

spoqster · March 2015

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

There is a simple solution to this. CP system is disabled in pvp. Now everyone is on an equal footing.

yep. posted this in pts a while back: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153790/in-cyrodiil-and-trials-disable-cs-limit-skill-points-and-scale-characters-to-v1#latest

McDoogs · March 2015

At least with the progression cap being VR14 a more casual person could narrow the gap quite a bit. A new VR14 with a pvp set + crafted gear was very close in relative character power to long-time VR14s.

Now, with this more open-ended and FAR too linear progress, the casuals will quickly fall behind and basically never catch up. Not to mention that new players ALSO have the veteran grind to do, they will be light years behind!

Smeag · March 2015

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

There is a simple solution to this. CP system is disabled in pvp. Now everyone is on an equal footing.

I really hope that this happens. PvP should be about skill, not how many points you've accumulated through mindless grinding. Unfortunately their biggest seller in the crown store will be XP boosts for champ points, so it's unlikely it will ever be disabled

RoamingRiverElk · March 2015

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

There is a simple solution to this. CP system is disabled in pvp. Now everyone is on an equal footing.

Except that with the CP system nerfs, some builds are considerably weaker - they now *need* more CP to become effective again, while other builds are just fine even with 70 CP.

Rev Rielle · March 2015

No system is perfect. If you want - or expect - it to be you're in for a very rude shock, because that's not how things work, in the real world or the game world.

The champion point system has two features that help keep the player base together with regard to the hugely varying play times of individuals, a) It is broadly based on Diminishing Returns, and b) the mechanism of Enlightenment.

Outside of that, if one player plays for on average 5 hours a week, and another for 50 hours a week then of course there are going to be differences in the their character's level/champion points/advancement/etc. It's just the way these games work. People have to stop complaining and demanding some form of entitlement and equal playing field when they base such purely on other players. Players with wildly different play styles than their own.

No one wants 'pay to win', but there is far less wrong with 'play to win'. In fact, if there is no incentive for players to play the game (e.g. through continual character development) that is by far the bigger shortcoming of a game's long term planning than the alternative.

Finally, players can complain and feel hard done by all they want, but at the end of it all if you're beaten in PvP by another player the mechanics of the game are such that the reason is likely not their level, or champion points or equipment, it's due to their own skill.

RoamingRiverElk · March 2015

Rev Rielle wrote: »

No one wants 'pay to win', but there is far less wrong with 'play to win'. In fact, if there is no incentive for players to play the game (e.g. through continual character development) that is by far the bigger shortcoming of a game's long term planning than the alternative.

Finally, players can complain and feel hard done by all they want, but at the end of it all if you're beaten in PvP by another player the mechanics of the game are such that the reason is likely not their level, or champion points or equipment, it's due to their own skill.

1.5 was a good system for PvP. 1.6 is not. There should be more actual content to give people to do, rather than an endless grind that gives such Huge advantages for people who grind.

I have PvPd a lot, and I have tested the champion system on the PTS and believe me, the champion points make such a difference that it is Not about skill anymore beyond some basic "don't do something incredibly stupid repeatedly".

Muizer · March 2015

If some can get 4 or five times more xp in the same game time as others, then the disparity between CP awarded for different activities is just too great. This system shouldn't force us to abandon one play style for another, but this way it will.

McDoogs · March 2015

Rev Rielle wrote: »

No system is perfect. If you want - or expect - it to be you're in for a very rude shock, because that's not how things work, in the real world or the game world.

The champion point system has two features that help keep the player base together with regard to the hugely varying play times of individuals, a) It is broadly based on Diminishing Returns, and b) the mechanism of Enlightenment.

Outside of that, if one player plays for on average 5 hours a week, and another for 50 hours a week then of course there are going to be differences in the their character's level/champion points/advancement/etc. It's just the way these games work. People have to stop complaining and demanding some form of entitlement and equal playing field when they base such purely on other players. Players with wildly different play styles than their own.

No one wants 'pay to win', but there is far less wrong with 'play to win'. In fact, if there is no incentive for players to play the game (e.g. through continual character development) that is by far the bigger shortcoming of a game's long term planning than the alternative.

Finally, players can complain and feel hard done by all they want, but at the end of it all if you're beaten in PvP by another player the mechanics of the game are such that the reason is likely not their level, or champion points or equipment, it's due to their own skill.

'Diminishing returns' doesn't really apply to the CS though. Character power progression is actually fairly flat line through the first ~600 or so points, which let's be honest, is a HUGE time commitment for the bulk of players.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153568/giant-wall-of-text-attorneyatlawls-1-6-feedback-megapost/p1

Imagine a new vet player looking at the time commitment to close the gap on VR14 + 500CP players, and this will happen sooner than you think. I'm not nearly as hardcore as I used to be and I'm closing in on 100CP already

$infraction2008b16_ESO$ · March 2015

Mumyo wrote: »

give it a weekly cap. Pvp will have nothing to do with skill anymore if zos doesnt put a stop to this. i made 1 CP till now, i will be screwed in pvp because i prefer pvp instead of grinding.

Weekly cap would just mean those casuals and new players will have a harder time to catch up to and be competive with those who grind since the beginning. What we actually need is a limited bulk supply a day/week which players can earn from completing daily/weekly objectives so newer players can get a good number of champion points within a months playtime in order to be competitive. I think players should be able to earn 10 a day from casually completing usual content like dungeon/trials/craglorn quests and pvp but once they earn that 10 or so a day then it should cap the rate you earn them.

Jamersonb16_ESO · March 2015

It's sad to say but the reason they can't give more xp for PvP is us. There is a significant proportion of players who will glitch and exploit any system to gain an advantage and they would just team up with a friend and trade kills, gaining way more xp than designed.

If they made 'normal' activities in PvP give a sensible amount of xp, exploiters will gain way way more. Look at the situation with PvE, the xp for dungeons, killing mobs while playing the game 'normally' has been massively nerfed because otherwise exploiters will cheat/glich the system by repeatedly killing one mob or room to gain way more xp than is intended.

The exploiters will whine about 'I should be able to play the way I want and do the activities I enjoy' but that's bs. People don't mindlessly do the same thing over and over again for fun, they do it to unfairly gain a competitive advantage over other people and feel like the big shot.

In summary, no xp in PvP and no xp for PvE other than turning in time-gated quests is entirely due to us, the players, exploiting behind the justification of 'grinding'. It's our fault, not the devs.

WhiskyBob · March 2015

Jamersonb16_ESO wrote: »

It's sad to say but the reason they can't give more xp for PvP is us. There is a significant proportion of players who will glitch and exploit any system to gain an advantage and they would just team up with a friend and trade kills, gaining way more xp than designed.

If they made 'normal' activities in PvP give a sensible amount of xp, exploiters will gain way way more. Look at the situation with PvE, the xp for dungeons, killing mobs while playing the game 'normally' has been massively nerfed because otherwise exploiters will cheat/glich the system by repeatedly killing one mob or room to gain way more xp than is intended.

The exploiters will whine about 'I should be able to play the way I want and do the activities I enjoy' but that's bs. People don't mindlessly do the same thing over and over again for fun, they do it to unfairly gain a competitive advantage over other people and feel like the big shot.

In summary, no xp in PvP and no xp for PvE other than turning in time-gated quests is entirely due to us, the players, exploiting behind the justification of 'grinding'. It's our fault, not the devs.

Grind still exists and it feels fine. Reaching 100cp soon.

Flynch · March 2015

EvE-Online has made an entire game revolving around the prospect of 'catch-up or die trying' where the grind is literal time rather than XP and seems to work pretty well. It all comes down to the balance of things. It does allow the player to catch up offline though, so that might be something to consider in the long run. Say, you gain CP at 15% of the normal rate when offline, or something. I'm no good at theory crafting balance though.

Valn · March 2015

Durham wrote: »

Someone who has already farmed 100 CP's they will be a distinct minority in this game... Don't worry you will have plenty to kill.. People like him will burn out or graduate from college... If they dont go school somewhere they will soon have real world issues... Power gamers tend to burn out and move on .... Honestly I would pity the guy...

I take it you know this from personal experience?

Rune_Relic · March 2015

vovus69 wrote: »

Relax - this is the way it is. Whoever has more time will have advantage. And this is right thing to do. Casual will never be able to get on the same foot as pro in the same amount of time. It will just take more time. Find another way to enjoy in game - you will never be at the same level with guy who are playing ESO 24/7. And you don't need it to enjoy the game

The way it is.....How about the way it should be ?
Oh wait because MMO....so its ok right ?

There are those that lead and those that follow.
I don think ZOS should take the lemming route over the cliff.
I think someone with balls should take control of ESO and say....NO.
This is bad and recognise/accept it.

A the very least cap CP gain per day until they figure out a better way forward...and not in 12 months time

ZOS seems to have this "how does it feel on an individual basis.....do you feel powereful with CP" single player PVE view.
They appear oblivious to the "how do you feel compared to others" PVP side of things which is much more important in an MMO. Do you feel competitive ? Do you feel you can hold your own in a fight ?

spoqster · March 2015

Rune_Relic wrote: »

vovus69 wrote: »

Relax - this is the way it is. Whoever has more time will have advantage. And this is right thing to do. Casual will never be able to get on the same foot as pro in the same amount of time. It will just take more time. Find another way to enjoy in game - you will never be at the same level with guy who are playing ESO 24/7. And you don't need it to enjoy the game

The way it is.....How about the way it should be ?
Oh wait because MMO....so its ok right ?

There are those that lead and those that follow.
I don think ZOS should take the lemming route over the cliff.
I think someone with balls should take control of ESO and say....NO.
This is bad and recognise/accept it.

A the very least cap CP gain per day until they figure out a better way forward...and not in 12 months time

ZOS seems to have this "how does it feel on an individual basis.....do you feel powereful with CP" single player PVE view.
They appear oblivious to the "how do you feel compared to others" PVP side of things which is much more important in an MMO. Do you feel competitive ? Do you feel you can hold your own in a fight ?

Yes! With all the good content they are creating they are making questionable gameplay decisions left and right. It's the Elder Scrolls for God's sake. Be a bit innovative or at least avoid the obvious mistakes.

Zsymon · March 2015

The whole point of PvP though, is army vs army warfare, it doesn't matter if that one player is much stronger than you because of higher CPs, because 1vs1 is not a priority in this game. Each army will have a roughly equal amount of very powerful champions, and that way it is balanced.

Zsymon · March 2015

To balance PvP'ers versus grinders, all they have to do is increase the CP/experience you get from PvP'ing.

Jinkins · March 2015

Cazic wrote: »

I see where you're coming from. But, someone who has more time to put into the game grinding will always be ahead of a more casual player. Champion System or not. If you could and wanted to play for 8 hours a day, you'd want to feel rewarded for that time compared to someone who only put in 2 hours a day, wouldn't you?

I see your point, but it should be that way to a lesser degree. Ex: people who grinded to vr10 in a week at launch were ahead for months of casuals. In this case, it is going to be years or possibly never being in line with people who grind 10 cp a day for people who have jobs.

TehMagnus wrote: »

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/149933/why-champion-system-will-kill-the-game-if-its-implemented-as-is <= I posted the same title stating it would lead to situations like yours before 1.6 was even live.

Oh sorry I didn't see this, relatively new here

Zsymon wrote: »

The whole point of PvP though, is army vs army warfare, it doesn't matter if that one player is much stronger than you because of higher CPs, because 1vs1 is not a priority in this game. Each army will have a roughly equal amount of very powerful champions, and that way it is balanced.

You didn't get the point and I could honestly care less about this, I care about my own progression and fun, I could care less who is winning on the leaderboard.
I think this merits a @Zos response
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno
Personally, I would suggest doing something before its too late and the majority of the playerbase sees how ahead grinders are in comparison to everyone else, years ahead as it looks like it is going to be pretty soon, and leaves the game. But that's just my opinion

Seraphyel · March 2015

Vanzen wrote: »

I think diminishing return means that after 1000cp, it wont matter if someone has 1000 or 3600.

It matters.

Mumyo wrote: »

give it a weekly cap. Pvp will have nothing to do with skill anymore if zos doesnt put a stop to this. i made 1 CP till now, i will be screwed in pvp because i prefer pvp instead of grinding.

This is a good idea. With a cap, the gap would be not that big.

Minnesinger · March 2015

I remember ZOS pointed out that there is no big difference between the casual and pro players. The Champion Point system was supposed to be built in a way that you can benefit from it even if you don´t slot many points. As you get points they give less value. Something like this.

Also I like the system it gives me something to do. I usually pvped as I had done the whole content and got enough of pve. Now I can play my alts and get benefits on my toons.

Lionxoft · March 2015

A buddy of mine earned three champion points and significant progress into his fourth yesterday in the first thirty minutes of his stream. He's accruing more than 800k xp p/h unenlightened. The gap in power is there and it is huge!

It's in my signature but I'll restate it.

The Champion System should have rewarded Champion Points based off of achievements and feats earned through excelling at end game content not grinding your life away vs mobs in order to stay competitive. This system is uncreative and is a great example of extremely lazy system design.

Jinkins · March 2015

Minnesinger wrote: »

I remember ZOS pointed out that there is no big difference between the casual and pro players. The Champion Point system was supposed to be built in a way that you can benefit from it even if you don´t slot many points. As you get points they give less value. Something like this.

Also I like the system it gives me something to do. I usually pvped as I had done the whole content and got enough of pve. Now I can play my alts and get benefits on my toons.

You didn't play the pts..... 3600 cp you were like a god. IMO like was suggested in another thread they should make cp out of combat passives rather than what they are now. When people see what grinders are capable in a couple months, maybe less, compared to the casual player, this game is as good as dead

Teeba_Shei · March 2015

You guys are way too late to the party. The time to complain would've been for the months leading up to this patch and not afterwards. I bet it'll be months before we see any major changes relating to this system.