Champion System needs revamp or going to kill the game

Jinkins · March 2015

Hi eso forums,
I'd like to start with the fact that I have multiple vrs and am just as invested as the next in this game.
However, initial returns on the cs for me were rather troubling. I was killed (although it was quite the duel) by a guy who I had killed easily in the past in pvp, and when I conversed with him he said he had 100 cp. Already. As much as I love the game, I work full time and cannot play much more than 1-2 hours a day, and just playing pvp has netted me a total of 1 f****** cp. At this rate, grinders are going to be legions ahead of me in cp and we all saw the difference thousands of cp made on the pts.....
Do something @Zos, or the casual player is going to be gone from this game. Increase xp in cyrodiil, reduce cp to 10 per tree, deduct cp needed to gain a vet rank, I don't care. If something isn't done in a couple months I will be months, hell even years behind grinders in cp and the statistics they have. If this continues as it looks, your game is going to lose 90% of its playerbase, die, and ultimately be regarded as an utter fail if it wasn't already.
Signed, a disgruntled fan who loves the game.

Cazic · March 2015

I see where you're coming from. But, someone who has more time to put into the game grinding will always be ahead of a more casual player. Champion System or not. If you could and wanted to play for 8 hours a day, you'd want to feel rewarded for that time compared to someone who only put in 2 hours a day, wouldn't you?

Rosveen · March 2015

Cazic wrote: »

I see where you're coming from. But, someone who has more time to put into the game grinding will always be ahead of a more casual player. Champion System or not. If you could and wanted to play for 8 hours a day, you'd want to feel rewarded for that time compared to someone who only put in 2 hours a day, wouldn't you?

The problem is that previously we could catch up. People skyrocketed to VR12 and then VR14, but everyone else got there too sooner or later. With 3600 champion points, that's not going to happen. Casual players will earn up to 2 CP a day, reaching their first 120 point passives anywhere between 5 months to over a year from now. Grinders will be there much, much sooner and the gap will only continue to grow. I won't go as far as to say it will kill the game... but it's going to be interesting to watch how new players joining later this year are going to react.

Durham · March 2015

Someone who has already farmed 100 CP's they will be a distinct minority in this game... Don't worry you will have plenty to kill.. People like him will burn out or graduate from college... If they dont go school somewhere they will soon have real world issues... Power gamers tend to burn out and move on .... Honestly I would pity the guy...

Thymos · March 2015

A funny thing. On a level 25, I still kill people in the VRs, one on one, in Cyrodiil. So I don't see it being as bad as the OP suggests. I'm also a casual player.

Durham · March 2015

To me I think you need to find the balance to enjoy real life and this game....

Cazic · March 2015

Rosveen wrote: »

Cazic wrote: »

I see where you're coming from. But, someone who has more time to put into the game grinding will always be ahead of a more casual player. Champion System or not. If you could and wanted to play for 8 hours a day, you'd want to feel rewarded for that time compared to someone who only put in 2 hours a day, wouldn't you?

The problem is that previously we could catch up. People skyrocketed to VR12 and then VR14, but everyone else got there too sooner or later. With 3600 champion points, that's not going to happen. Casual players will earn up to 2 CP a day, reaching their first 120 point passives anywhere between 5 months to over a year from now. Grinders will be there much, much sooner and the gap will only continue to grow. I won't go as far as to say it will kill the game... but it's going to be interesting to watch how new players joining later this year are going to react.

Yeah, I do see the potential issue there. I guess the benefit of the Champion System's longevity is that it keeps people in the game for the long term, and that's of course what ZOS wants. Really it's what we all want if we want the game to thrive for a long period of time. There will always be a portion of the player base that chooses to be hardcore and grind to top of whatever system is in place as quickly as possible.

It's still pretty early on though It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

Tannakaobi · March 2015

Cazic wrote: »

If you could and wanted to play for 8 hours a day, you'd want to feel rewarded for that time compared to someone who only put in 2 hours a day, wouldn't you?

It's a good question. Personally I would have to say yes and no. Of course I want rewards for my time, but I also want the game to be about skill over grind. It's a fine balance and often what makes or breaks a games PVP for me.

I'm not in a position now to say about ESO

Cazic · March 2015

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Cazic wrote: »

If you could and wanted to play for 8 hours a day, you'd want to feel rewarded for that time compared to someone who only put in 2 hours a day, wouldn't you?

It's a good question. Personally I would have to say yes and no. Of course I want rewards for my time, but I also want the game to be about skill over grind. It's a fine balance and often what makes or breaks a games PVP for me.

I'm not in a position now to say about ESO

That's true, it's a very fine balance. Really the passives gained from the Champion System don't seem all that overpowering. Definitely will give you an advantage in PvP, but probably not to the point where someone who has, let's say, the 120 point passive and you only have the 75 point one will totally wipe the floor with you every time.

Try to look at the passives gained from the CS as milestones -- goals to work toward, rather than instant win abilities.

Morshire · March 2015

Well this is like the 100th thread (exaggerating some) about this. Personally, I say let the grinders grind, or power levelers do whatever....well you get the point. BUT the OP is 100% correct and I fully agree. No one, IMO, should let this go on much longer. The CP needs to be capped at whatever number that makes catching up possible. Like the VR only going to 14. This made players powerful, and casuals still had a chance, without giving up their RL to do it. The real issue is that ZOS has nothing out for people who have reached end game, so they are trying to distract from this by throwing this monumental grind out there. But they think it will take 4-5 hours per CP, but people are doing 10-12 a day (I have heard) which mean that before they even release DLC, we are going to see these god characters. The balance they hoped to achieve will be dead, and a large portion of the player base will leave. What they had hoped would = longevity looks more like the quick run that is going to just destroy the game mechanics and the fun for some players, myself included.

vovus69 · March 2015

Relax - this is the way it is. Whoever has more time will have advantage. And this is right thing to do. Casual will never be able to get on the same foot as pro in the same amount of time. It will just take more time. Find another way to enjoy in game - you will never be at the same level with guy who are playing ESO 24/7. And you don't need it to enjoy the game

FadedJeans · March 2015

I've been playing the game casually since beta and I still haven't reached the third zone. (I'm knocking on the door now, though)

I'm still having a blast, and my main wears light armor in Regicide Red.

I'm certainly not having a problem finding a good time. I hope the ride lasts for years.

I can't be the only one.

Dagoth_Rac · March 2015

I think a game where power players grinded to VR14 in a few days while average players took a a few months to get there is one thing. But a game where power players will be grinding out an an ever-expanding power gap that will take the average player multiple years to catch up? That is going overboard.

Also, don't forget that the Veteran Ranks were extremely unpopular. If the VR1 to VR14 grind and power gap was driving players away last year, why would the potentially much more intimidating Champion System power gap not drive players away this year?

Most players want to feel like either there is a big power gap but they can catch up in a reasonable amount of time, or that there will always be a power gap but that it is minor. The Champion System feels like the opposite. It will take an extremely long time for the average player to close the power gap and the power gap is significant.

That being said, I think OP lost because his build was hurt by Update 6 and other guy/girl's build was helped by Update 6. Not because of 70 CP versus 100 CP. 30 CP is not a big enough power gap yet. But 400 CP versus 100 CP? 1000 CP versus 200 CP? I think he is right in principal. We all saw the extreme power of the Champion System on the PTS. It is going to become a problem sooner or later.

Drazhar14 · March 2015

They need to decrease the strength. Maxed out champion points should give something like +10% to a stat. At the current values of +25%, the gap between someone with no champion points and maxed is way too high. Instead of a small bonus over time, it becomes a mandatory grind to remain competitive.

$infraction2008b16_ESO$ · March 2015

I feel what is missing is the replacement for plain old grinding, like another avenue to earn champion points rather than earning xp. Something that would work well would be to actually include them in a daily/weekly quest system or even something like expanding the undaunted pledge system so you can trade gold/silver keys for champion points and having pledges not just for dungeons but all content like trials, craglorn quests, delves and even open world stuff like anomalies and dolmens.

For pvp they could also have a similar system tied to the daily missions.

Doesn't that sound more fun than mindlessly grinding mobs to get ahead? It's the reason other mmo's have dailies.

Morshire · March 2015

Drazhar14 wrote: »

They need to decrease the strength. Maxed out champion points should give something like +10% to a stat. At the current values of +25%, the gap between someone with no champion points and maxed is way too high. Instead of a small bonus over time, it becomes a mandatory grind to remain competitive.

I want to caution here. If you devalue the CP (+10% V 25%) then it is worse, IMO. They should regulate the amount a player can get. Soft cap at 360 (120 per tree or less even) and introduce more with each DLC. Far better in my opinion. DLC appears to be coming in 6-7 months. Now I realize not all casual players will achieve the 360 CP in 6-7 months (myself included) but I think it will be more like the gap we have from VR, which is doable. Even make the CP smaller. Or, instead of getting all the skills maxed, a player needs to select a "type" to specialize in. Something, that will limit the gains, while not diminishing the value. ZOS needs to look at that, or introduce more content so the focus is not maxing the CS. But if they leave it alone......by the time DLC hits, there will be gods, and there will be people ready to quit.

Oh yeah, had to agree with the theory of this. It has merit and got an agree from me.

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

I feel what is missing is the replacement for plain old grinding, like another avenue to earn champion points rather than earning xp. Something that would work well would be to actually include them in a daily/weekly quest system or even something like expanding the undaunted pledge system so you can trade gold/silver keys for champion points and having pledges not just for dungeons but all content like trials, craglorn quests, delves and even open world stuff like anomalies and dolmens.

For pvp they could also have a similar system tied to the daily missions.

Doesn't that sound more fun than mindlessly grinding mobs to get ahead? It's the reason other mmo's have dailies.

deepseamk20b14_ESO · March 2015

Cazic wrote: »

I see where you're coming from. But, someone who has more time to put into the game grinding will always be ahead of a more casual player. Champion System or not. If you could and wanted to play for 8 hours a day, you'd want to feel rewarded for that time compared to someone who only put in 2 hours a day, wouldn't you?

^this. I'm even a casual player and can understand these basic things. Plus I have had no issues. The person can have way more points sure but there are diminishing returns. It's certainly not game breaking. I'm doing just fine as I always have in PvP.

Rydik · March 2015

After let's say 3 months people with job, family etc(1cp per day) will have 90 cp, people who grind 24/7 (we take only let's say 4cp per day (1 full enlightment day)) will have 360 cp, so 270 difference. It's veeeery big power gap for PvP, and it only continues to grow. I'm totally agree with OP, it's very big problem...

RoamingRiverElk · March 2015

It's not just 4 CP that people are grinding per day, it's much, much more. I thought this would become and issue in three or four months, but now it looks like it will become an issue even sooner in PvP. And it absolutely will be an issue. I saw what the CP can do on the PTS.

Chesimac · March 2015

Cazic wrote: »

I see where you're coming from. But, someone who has more time to put into the game grinding will always be ahead of a more casual player. Champion System or not. If you could and wanted to play for 8 hours a day, you'd want to feel rewarded for that time compared to someone who only put in 2 hours a day, wouldn't you?

I see where you're coming from, to a certain degree. Sure, there can be a grind, but it there should be a point where skill eclipses those who play more, and the op's point is that will take years, or never happen, and the disparity is coming soin

Smeag · March 2015

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Most players want to feel like either there is a big power gap but they can catch up in a reasonable amount of time, or that there will always be a power gap but that it is minor. The Champion System feels like the opposite. It will take an extremely long time for the average player to close the power gap and the power gap is significant.

Exactly. It's incredibly discouraging when you know that no matter what you do, you'll NEVER be able to catch up. You'll never be as strong as that guy whose 300 CP ahead of you. You might eventually be able to earn 300 CP, but thats 6 MONTHS later and if that guy is still playing he's still 300 CP ahead. We've already got people with 120+ CP due to extremely efficient grinding spots that have been over looked. These spots will eventually be fixed, but in the mean time people are earning an amount of CP equivalent to months of casual playing in just a few days.

Pmarsico9 · March 2015

Cazic wrote: »

I see where you're coming from. But, someone who has more time to put into the game grinding will always be ahead of a more casual player. Champion System or not. If you could and wanted to play for 8 hours a day, you'd want to feel rewarded for that time compared to someone who only put in 2 hours a day, wouldn't you?

This is not true at all. If gear mattered more, this wouldn't be an issue. And the RNG was strong enough that gear that was superior to crafted gear took a long time to get. Simply grinding ad nauseum is a very poor way to band-aid the real issue here:

There's essentially nothing for a V14 who has done gold and silver to do that doesn't require endless spamming chats for groups. And now the importance of doing so is magnified. That's really bad. Alot of people are going to leave when they see they have to do Craglorn dailies every single day forever.

Chesimac · March 2015

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Cazic wrote: »

I see where you're coming from. But, someone who has more time to put into the game grinding will always be ahead of a more casual player. Champion System or not. If you could and wanted to play for 8 hours a day, you'd want to feel rewarded for that time compared to someone who only put in 2 hours a day, wouldn't you?

This is not true at all. If gear mattered more, this wouldn't be an issue. And the RNG was strong enough that gear that was superior to crafted gear took a long time to get. Simply grinding ad nauseum is a very poor way to band-aid the real issue here:

There's essentially nothing for a V14 who has done gold and silver to do that doesn't require endless spamming chats for groups. And now the importance of doing so is magnified. That's really bad. Alot of people are going to leave when they see they have to do Craglorn dailies every single day forever.

Basically what I am doing now lol... spamming zone for groups, doing skyreach, skyreach some more, pledge. Its ******* boring but pvp barely gives any cp atm so we're kinda forced. Camelot Unchained seems so far away....

spoqster · March 2015

The CP does not need capping. An infinite horizontal progression system is great, it just shouldn't award power. Increase player power up to level 50 and then no more. Change the CS to reward non-combat passives, such as harvesting time, carry capacity, move speed, fast travel cost, barter skills, thieving skills, guild slots, guild bank slots, player housing skills, and so on.

Teeba_Shei · March 2015

spoqster wrote: »

The CP does not need capping. An infinite horizontal progression system is great, it just shouldn't award power. Increase player power up to level 50 and then no more. Change the CS to reward non-combat passives, such as harvesting time, carry capacity, move speed, fast travel cost, barter skills, thieving skills, guild slots, guild bank slots, player housing skills, and so on.

Whatever noncombat passive you can think of will just be something they could add as a perk to subscribers or to the crown store. The combat stuff really has to be in the champion system available to all players while the noncombat stuff can be monetized. Keep in mind, at the end of the day, this is still a business.

NobleX35 · March 2015

spoqster wrote: »

The CP does not need capping. An infinite horizontal progression system is great, it just shouldn't award power. Increase player power up to level 50 and then no more. Change the CS to reward non-combat passives, such as harvesting time, carry capacity, move speed, fast travel cost, barter skills, thieving skills, guild slots, guild bank slots, player housing skills, and so on.

I definitely agree with this, and is what the system should have been in the first place...non combat bonuses! The CP system in it's current state is not a horizontal progression system since it has such a massive impact on the strength of your character. While I like the idea behind the CP system, it essentially is just a much longer version of the VR system...which caused a huge junk of the player base to leave due to how quickly it became tedious and boring.

olemanwinter · March 2015

Cazic wrote: »

If you could and wanted to play for 8 hours a day, you'd want to feel rewarded for that time compared to someone who only put in 2 hours a day, wouldn't you?

Sure. But you are going to be rewarded by an empty low population game that goes F2P.

The issue is the MAXIMUM DEGREE of seperation. Nobody is suggesting evryone be even or that someone who plays more cant be stronger.

However if someone is gaining 10 CP per day then in 3 months time they will have nearly 1000 CP. New players will be extremely discouraged by the gap.

An MMO requires players. If you want to enjoy this game like I do then limiting the speed of progression and maximun level of progression for elite players must be a concern. Or else AT BEST we will be a small group of OP players in an empty game. At worst there bill no game at all.

WraithAzraiel · March 2015

They'll be addressing your issue with the release of Tamriel Unlimited. The Crown Store specifically is all about given people with less time than others an even footing, or so says all the promo's for the B2P launch anyhow.

They'll do something about it, I'm sure.

Whether or not it's before console launch, who knows?

Vanzen · March 2015

I think diminishing return means that after 1000cp, it wont matter if someone has 1000 or 3600.

Seraphyel · March 2015

Cazic wrote: »

I see where you're coming from. But, someone who has more time to put into the game grinding will always be ahead of a more casual player. Champion System or not. If you could and wanted to play for 8 hours a day, you'd want to feel rewarded for that time compared to someone who only put in 2 hours a day, wouldn't you?

Guys like you don't get the real issue with the Champion System.

It's not about players that put more time into the game - they obviously should be better - but it's about the fact that those players are unreachable for anybody else.

In other games, players with more time could achieve things faster but there always has been an "end" so that every player could be equal at some point.

With Champion System, players that spent many many time in the game are in another league when it comes to Champion Points due to the fact that NOBODY can ever reach their amount of time played.

Little example:

Launch player has the best equip and 200 days playtime.

Newer player has the best equip an 50 days playtime.

When it comes to equip, they are equal, but their spent time makes a huge difference now because the launch player has an advantage of 150 days of playtime which ends in a drastically better Champion Point result.

spoqster · March 2015

Cazic wrote: »

I see where you're coming from. But, someone who has more time to put into the game grinding will always be ahead of a more casual player. Champion System or not. If you could and wanted to play for 8 hours a day, you'd want to feel rewarded for that time compared to someone who only put in 2 hours a day, wouldn't you?

But you are being rewarded because your L2P level rises: You simply get better at the game. You also get a much higher chance at having better gear. Is that not enough? Do you really also need a flat base advantage in damage and protection?