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Should Champion Rank Be Displayed in the UI?
Rook_Master
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Should Champion Rank be displayed when you mouse over a player, in much the same way the Alliance Rank is displayed?
It currently does not display.
Edited by Rook_Master on March 6, 2015 5:54PM It currently does not display.
Should Champion Rank Be Displayed in the UI? 102 votes
Yes
45%
46 votes
No
51%
53 votes
Other (Explain)
2%
3 votes
1
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theweakminded✭✭✭NoAll that would do is lead people to statements like "champ 150+ only" preferring grinders over other players.8
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Rook_Master✭✭✭✭✭YesThe separation is inevitable, really.
V14 is a good proxy for skill right now, but I expect that to not be the case after a few weeks or months.1 -
derpsticks✭✭✭✭YesI don't see the harm in showing it. Elitism by some measure will find its way regardless. Ranks, levels, and values are all a legitimate way of expressing the difficulty a player will have overcoming a challenge. Does a VR3 think they should be soloing VR13 mobs with ease? Without knowing what levels things are a player would never know what limits they have until they are dead and frustrated. Bringing that mentality to group play is downright selfish and unfairly burdens other players.
If a player can prove themself, then others will respect that player regardless of champion points. until that player does prove themself they should be treated with caution.1 -
Soulshine✭✭✭✭✭
✭Other (Explain)Back during the guild summit, this was Sage's perspective:What is your stance on the visibility of champion levels, do you want a character’s champion progress to be public knowledge?
We’re playing with different sets of iconography to represent a character’s Champion achievement visually within the UI. There’s a lot of potential also for Champion Ratings as a composite statistic based both on their champion rating as well as the attribute levels of an enemy.
At this point then, I would be more concerned about asking not whether Champion rank should be displayed, but rather how can it be displayed since it is a given that there has to be a way to gate content tiers as the game wears on, especially if they ever do in fact remove VR ranking.1 -
AlnilamE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Noderpsticks wrote: »Does a VR3 think they should be soloing VR13 mobs with ease? Without knowing what levels things are a player would never know what limits they have until they are dead and frustrated.
Mmm... my V3 sorc had no problem dealing with the V13 scorpions in Craglorn. Welwa were a bit iffy and the wasps were a no-no. Not sure what point you are trying to make here.
The Moot Councillor0 -
Rook_Master✭✭✭✭✭YesBack during the guild summit, this was Sage's perspective:What is your stance on the visibility of champion levels, do you want a character’s champion progress to be public knowledge?
We’re playing with different sets of iconography to represent a character’s Champion achievement visually within the UI. There’s a lot of potential also for Champion Ratings as a composite statistic based both on their champion rating as well as the attribute levels of an enemy.
At this point then, I would be more concerned about asking not whether Champion rank should be displayed, but rather how can it be displayed since it is a given that there has to be a way to gate content tiers as the game wears on, especially if they ever do in fact remove VR ranking.
Ah, thank you, that is very revealing.
I didn't even consider the point that future content must be gated behind Champion points somehow. That makes a lot of sense, and I'm fine with an approximate ranking as well.1 -
traigusb14_ESO2✭✭✭✭✭Rook_Master wrote: »Back during the guild summit, this was Sage's perspective:What is your stance on the visibility of champion levels, do you want a character’s champion progress to be public knowledge?
We’re playing with different sets of iconography to represent a character’s Champion achievement visually within the UI. There’s a lot of potential also for Champion Ratings as a composite statistic based both on their champion rating as well as the attribute levels of an enemy.
At this point then, I would be more concerned about asking not whether Champion rank should be displayed, but rather how can it be displayed since it is a given that there has to be a way to gate content tiers as the game wears on, especially if they ever do in fact remove VR ranking.
Ah, thank you, that is very revealing.
I didn't even consider the point that future content must be gated behind Champion points somehow. That makes a lot of sense, and I'm fine with an approximate ranking as well.
It may not be gated so much as it needs to be marked. They said all new combat would be scaled.
If you have 500 CP when Hrothgar comes out, chances are it will scale a bit higher than if it were just 20 CP. Same with 2000 CP. Has to be some challenge in PVE.
So the mobs may have 3 grindy gears over their heads or Stanley cups or something. Maybe combos so it works like roman numerals
OMFG just logged into vet spindleclutch and the party leader must have a lot of CP because the mobs had 3 skulls, 2 Areosmith Logos a honda scooter and what looked like a kitchen sink over their heads!
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derpsticks✭✭✭✭YesThe point I am trying to make is that levels, ranks, and values give a player the ability to gauge their own limits. Maybe the example I gave was not the best but it is obvious that encounters are not favorable towards a mismatched player.
Take health for instance, if a healer can see another players health and know that it is too low, that healer can at least inform the player that they will be one shotted and that there is no heal that could save them. This allows the player to get valuable feedback and adjust accordingly. It also saves the healer a ton of resources and saves them time and trouble and wasted potions. If players had no way of knowing what health their group member had then they would end up wasting time and potentially couldn't resolve the issue. How would you like every player's health to be hidden? Do you want a tank who has 14k hp and not know until he is repeatedly dying, causing wipes?
The same applies to vr ranks. The same should apply to champion points. Players should be able to gauge others so that they know what their groups limits are. They should also be able to judge if a player is going to hold them back as they try to reach their goal. If a group of three hardcore players is attempting to be at the top of the vet dsa leaderboards, you can bet they won't want a vr1 let alone anything less than a vr14 with 70 points to come along with them.1 -
LtCrunch✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yestheweakminded wrote: »All that would do is lead people to statements like "champ 150+ only" preferring grinders over other players.
Once vet ranks are removed it needs to happen. At that point displaying Champion Rank is no different than displaying character level.NerdSauce GamingLaughs-At-Wounds - Sap tanking since 03/30/14ßrandalf - Light armor tanking since 03/03/15Brandalf Beer-Belly - Tanking drunk since 12/30/162 -
theweakminded✭✭✭NoRook_Master wrote: »The separation is inevitable, really.
V14 is a good proxy for skill right now, but I expect that to not be the case after a few weeks or months.
V14 is not a measure of skill, its a measure of time spent. Just as champ 200, 300, etc will be.1 -
Rook_Master✭✭✭✭✭Yestheweakminded wrote: »Rook_Master wrote: »The separation is inevitable, really.
V14 is a good proxy for skill right now, but I expect that to not be the case after a few weeks or months.
V14 is not a measure of skill, its a measure of time spent. Just as champ 200, 300, etc will be.
That's why I said it was a proxy.
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Jaxsun✭✭✭✭NoNo, because the default UI sucks the knob already, they'd probably have it take up half the screen and it would end up being bugged resulting in more lag or permanent character deletion.3
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derpsticks✭✭✭✭YesVR rank is not a measure of skill or time spend, it is a measure of relative power. The same way champion points are a measure of relative power and not skill or time spent. Sure they might take a while to grind them out, but I mean time measured equally. Some players will be able to grind them much faster so we can't say it is a direct measurement of time spent.1
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Soulshine✭✭✭✭✭
✭Other (Explain)derpsticks wrote: »VR rank is not a measure of skill or time spend, it is a measure of relative power. The same way champion points are a measure of relative power and not skill or time spent. Sure they might take a while to grind them out, but I mean time measured equally. Some players will be able to grind them much faster so we can't say it is a direct measurement of time spent.
Actually, even that measure of power is questionable. As in, power to do what, exactly?
Consider for example that Sage discussed one of the benefits of the system pre 1.6 was that it helped to prevent what he called "bad builds." Really? I personally have come across players who talked about not understanding why they weren't able to do damage with a bow, when in fact they invested all their attribute points into magicka, for example.
Those same people could be running around in 3 months with 300 CPs invested in constellations which provide absolutely worthless bonuses for their build and role choice, so the fact that they may have earned them doesn't really mean a whole lot in that type of player.
Truth is that barring a total inspect option, you will never know what someone has done with their CPs and whether those will in fact synergize effectively with the build they are running, since that cannot be seen either - until they actually play.
The only thing that would be useful is for there to be an internal check against the point value to gate content, so players know their own probabilities of successfully meeting the content at hand, as you yourself pointed out before. That can easily be introduced into the game without a UI display for everyone to see since it could be an inherent system of the game world, just as those which are already in place. Then those concerned about another player coming in to do an istance for example, with less than what others feel are acceptable minimums of CPs will be removed from such worries in the first place as the system itself would bar those players from it.
Basically, this is just another example of what happens when systems get introduced incomplete and without proper implementation of the necessary supports to make them effective over the long term.0 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭derpsticks wrote: »The point I am trying to make is that levels, ranks, and values give a player the ability to gauge their own limits. Maybe the example I gave was not the best but it is obvious that encounters are not favorable towards a mismatched player.
Take health for instance, if a healer can see another players health and know that it is too low, that healer can at least inform the player that they will be one shotted and that there is no heal that could save them. This allows the player to get valuable feedback and adjust accordingly. It also saves the healer a ton of resources and saves them time and trouble and wasted potions. If players had no way of knowing what health their group member had then they would end up wasting time and potentially couldn't resolve the issue. How would you like every player's health to be hidden? Do you want a tank who has 14k hp and not know until he is repeatedly dying, causing wipes?
The same applies to vr ranks. The same should apply to champion points. Players should be able to gauge others so that they know what their groups limits are. They should also be able to judge if a player is going to hold them back as they try to reach their goal. If a group of three hardcore players is attempting to be at the top of the vet dsa leaderboards, you can bet they won't want a vr1 let alone anything less than a vr14 with 70 points to come along with them.
"How would you like every player's health to be hidden?"
Wouldn't that basically just be playing without add-ons?"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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derpsticks✭✭✭✭YesIt would be more or less, but I meant hidden as in no possible way to know without getting the player to tell you. As of right now, a players health is partially hidden but is ultimately accessible, whereas the number of champion points their account has is completely hidden and inaccessible. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation because an addon would be available and the topic moot.1
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Rosveen✭✭✭✭✭
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I'm beginning to think this common mistake is the reason why they changed the name from Wrothgar to Orsinium.traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »when Hrothgar comes out
Anyway, I don't see why not. It's the same kind of progress measure as character levels, which of course are displayed.
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Khaldar✭✭✭NoSomeone with 300 champion points all spent in 1 category for each tree is probably not specced as appropriate as someone with 200 points who spread his points out due to diminishing returns. So there could be a substantial difference and skill/gear are still a part of the equation. As a grinder myself, I know its mindnumbingly easy to run in circles killing the same mobs.Edited by Khaldar on March 6, 2015 9:54PM0
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wraith808✭✭✭✭So... if they're going to gate and/or scale based on CP instead of VR... then why even do away with VR?Quasim ibn-Muhammad - VR 12 Redguard Dragon Knight
Taladriel Vanima - VR 5 Altmer Nightblade
Ambalyo iyo Bogaadin - VR 1 Redguard Sorceror0 -
Khaldar✭✭✭NoSo... if they're going to gate and/or scale based on CP instead of VR... then why even do away with VR?
Why gate on CP at all? Because someone has 2% lower maigcka costs, 2% more magicka regen, 2% more health regen, so on and so forth... Its not that big of a difference unless you are talking >600CP vs 70CP.0 -
Soulshine✭✭✭✭✭
✭Other (Explain)So... if they're going to gate and/or scale based on CP instead of VR... then why even do away with VR?
There is a lot of misunderstanding about the phased introduction to the Champion System as a replacement for VR ranking, given the amount of poorly phrased statements Sage gave about this concept.
While it is clear Veteran POINTS have been removed as intended in Phase Two there was never as some assumed any discussion of complete rank removal from Phase Three, which was to introduce the point constellations themselves and translate earned VXP to the system, where we are now.
Phase Four is the missing link here since it was supposed to be the itemization change bringing Season gear, which Sage claimed would be the vehicle to rank players, not the Champion points themselves. He claimed the gear would be tied to a champion rating but lacking in level requirements - a grey area to say the least.
Unfortunately, we don't have proof that any of this will actually work since phase four is not yet in place, we have not ETA on when it will come, if at all, no new zone content for the forseeable next quarter or possibly until fall at the earliest, so meantime everyone is on the treadmill for points. By the time the gear gets here? Who knows what we will really have. You can hear that part of his discussion from minute 43:05 in this link.0 -
derpsticks✭✭✭✭YesWe are talking a big difference here. By the time new content comes out players will have played in 1.6 for around 6 months. Assuming 3 points a day that is somewhat close to the numbers you just mentioned between an old player and a new VR14.
There should be some sort of additional scaling based on the number of points someone has. Maybe creating separate instances based on the number would be reasonable. Are new areas going to allow vr1s? Will they strictly be vr14+? If you have vr1s then how do you separate the vr1s with 600 points from the fresh vr1s?
Perhaps a standardized ranking system should be put in place. Every player gets to run a hard instance with wave after wave of mobs. There could be a test for tanking, healing, and dps. So players would get a score and based on that are eligable for a higher difficulty tier of the content. Players could run the test over and over and progress to higher ranks if they are skilled or if they have simply outgrown that difficulty tier.1 -
Soulshine✭✭✭✭✭
✭Other (Explain)derpsticks wrote: »We are talking a big difference here. By the time new content comes out players will have played in 1.6 for around 6 months. Assuming 3 points a day that is somewhat close to the numbers you just mentioned between an old player and a new VR14.
There should be some sort of additional scaling based on the number of points someone has. Maybe creating separate instances based on the number would be reasonable. Are new areas going to allow vr1s? Will they strictly be vr14+? If you have vr1s then how do you separate the vr1s with 600 points from the fresh vr1s?
Perhaps a standardized ranking system should be put in place. Every player gets to run a hard instance with wave after wave of mobs. There could be a test for tanking, healing, and dps. So players would get a score and based on that are eligable for a higher difficulty tier of the content. Players could run the test over and over and progress to higher ranks if they are skilled or if they have simply outgrown that difficulty tier.
Again, all good points and part of why I keep saying it goes back to ZoS not implementing this properly, let alone practically, especially given the absence of content for the next several months and players hellbent on gridning out points asap.
There already is a system in place to separate players, even if artificially, and that is the VR rank. A simple internal check to that rank and point composite they have aquired, in the absnece of the gear Sage claimed would be the gateway, would be enough to prevent players of disporportionate levels from being thrown into content together.
Without this, merely putting a flag on someone which would be visible to others will not address the issue, just create player confusion nd likely hostile responses to criticism that they lack sufficient points to participate. If the system itself did it, then there is no room to argue.
Once we do actually have this gear he claimed, then it would be self evident where people stack.0 -
Attorneyatlawl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yesderpsticks wrote: »It would be more or less, but I meant hidden as in no possible way to know without getting the player to tell you. As of right now, a players health is partially hidden but is ultimately accessible, whereas the number of champion points their account has is completely hidden and inaccessible. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation because an addon would be available and the topic moot.
It's rather sad that such basic and critical info is still hidden and unavailable without someone specifically going out to install an addon for it. That kind of basic essential info is like being able to see how much gold you have or what spells are on your ability bar. While I like that we can make addons, it needs to stop being used as a crutch to not make the standard UI have even the bare necessities and be so unintuitive and poorly designed for usability & flow.-First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!
-Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
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-In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.1 -
vovus69✭✭✭✭YesOf course it should be shown. If all will be lvl50 I want to know how many champ points guy has. This will give me a handle what he can do."If I'll need your opinion, I'll give one to you" - Rivenspire2
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Thymos✭✭✭✭✭NoOf course it should be shown. If all will be lvl50 I want to know how many champ points guy has. This will give me a handle what he can do.
It'll be more of how much patience this guy has for grinding.The Older Gamers Recruitment Thread
Always accepting new members for NA and EU server. PvP PvE RP all welcome. Must be 25+ yo to join.
http://www.theoldergamers.com/0 -
jcaceresw✭✭✭✭✭Notheweakminded wrote: »All that would do is lead people to statements like "champ 150+ only" preferring grinders over other players.
Right now people still look for v12+ for vet dungeons. Is just matter of time for it to become v12+cp1200+. And no, I don´t defend them. In fact, I disagree with people who answered Yes to this poll. I would think of them as elitists or people who have all the time of the world to get most CP points. I consider myself a casual gamer and I want to enjoy game content without being kicked or "filtered out" for low DPS, low CP earned and such.Edited by jcaceresw on March 7, 2015 12:15AM0 -
derpsticks✭✭✭✭YesAssuming they get rid of veteran ranks they could easily base the gear purely on the number of points a player has. I just see a problem when using the vr rank in combination with the number of points. If a vr1 has 600 points they are most likely all around more effective than a vr3 with a few points. So then does the vr1 get to wear better gear than the vr3? The way I see it working can only mean basing the gear on one or the other but not both.
Im thinking gear could be gated based on the quality . So for instance a piece would require one additional champion point to use each time its quality is improved.
So lets assume vr ranks are gone so everyone is level 50. Now what you can do is have all the current gear from vr1 to vr14 mapped to a range of champion points. So a current white vr1 helm would require a player to have one champion point. If that was a green helm then it would require 2 points. As a matter of curiosity there are 14 ranks and 5 levels of quality, 5x14 = 70... the same number of points that we were given for having a vr14 with 5 increments of 200k xp.
So what I am proposing is to have pieces of armor require players to have more champion points to use as their quality improves. So a current vr14 gold piece would require 70 points in the new system.
A one to one mapping would apply for all current gear, whereas later content might divide the quality tiers over say 10 or 20 points each. So lets say the next content pack addes 2 "levels" worth of gear. Instead of requiring 5 points for each level, they might require 10 or 20 with each quality tier requiring 2 or 4 more champion points to use.
With this system every character at level 50 can be geared based on their entire account and not limited to a subsection of the gear that account has acquired. This also avoids the whole scaling debacle because content could be scaled to specific gear ranges as opposed to player levels which might not be equal anymore. Content overworld would be all the same difficulty, but entering a delve, dungeon, trial, etc. could be easily scaled to the party leader.0 -
Rev Rielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoNo, it makes no sense really. Champion Points are anything but a linear scale to show character 'strength' so putting an indicator on mouse over would not only lead to segregation of the player base (as has been said above in numerous posts) but would also be extremely misleading.If you can be anything, be kind.0 -
Drazhar14✭✭✭✭✭YesOnly for PvP, seeing as how someone with many champions points would be a lot more powerful than someone who just hit 50.derpsticks wrote: »So what I am proposing is to have pieces of armor require players to have more champion points to use as their quality improves. So a current vr14 gold piece would require 70 points in the new system.
How would that be any different than just keeping the veteran ranks? Sorry, but no thanks.2