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1.6 - No Forward Camps Sold by Siege Merchants

  • synnerman
    synnerman
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    Another backtrack! We were told on ESO live that they would be coming back...Not being investigated. Chillrend EU the other night taking blues final emp keep they popped 5 camps on us , this is 3 months after they had stopped being sold.
    Once again through ZoSs incompetence ie releasing the patch notes for NA with the camp change on them, the EU community suffers. Perhaps disable the camps completely until you have sorted them out . If people have tried to circumvent the system by buying hundreds then that's their loss.
  • NukeAllTheThings
    NukeAllTheThings
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    We are still looking at forward camps and whether they will be coming back in a modified form but for now and the foreseeable future, they are still not going to be sold by merchants or the crown store.
    We have talked about re-enabling in their current state on live but opted not to for various reasons such as issues mentioned here with blood-porting and server performance.
    The current state of Forward Camps internally have some UI issues we're still working through before we put them on a public test realm so while I'd like to get them to you to try, they really aren't too functional at the moment.

    We would want them implemented with many of the suggestions made here with reduced radius and respawning within the circle only, but also with a universal timer for using forward camps. Until we get the UI for all of that in and working, they won't be available to test.

    I like having camps in the game but I can live without them too. I really appreciate your input and giving us insight into the thinking and actions behind the decisions. This is the type of dialog I hope to see more of. Well done and thank you


    "it's important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models - but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being "monetized" in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days." - Matt Firor
  • frosth.darkomenb16_ESO
    frosth.darkomenb16_ESO
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    synnerman wrote: »
    Another backtrack! We were told on ESO live that they would be coming back...Not being investigated. Chillrend EU the other night taking blues final emp keep they popped 5 camps on us , this is 3 months after they had stopped being sold.
    Once again through ZoSs incompetence ie releasing the patch notes for NA with the camp change on them, the EU community suffers. Perhaps disable the camps completely until you have sorted them out . If people have tried to circumvent the system by buying hundreds then that's their loss.

    Actually, it was always said that they were investigated.
    People assumed it would mean they'd come back, but it never was stated as such.

    Reintroducing forward camps would be a mistake, but neither getting them back nor never seeing them again would be a back track. It would just be the conclusion of their investigation.
  • Digiman
    Digiman
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    I really can't see why they can reduce the radius of the circle to only be effective against one keep and the camp can be usable outside and not in a keep or tower or guard NPC's?
  • frosth.darkomenb16_ESO
    frosth.darkomenb16_ESO
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    Digiman wrote: »
    I really can't see why they can reduce the radius of the circle to only be effective against one keep and the camp can be usable outside and not in a keep or tower or guard NPC's?

    They can't do that for gameplay reasons, not technical ones.

    The issue with forward camp, aside from the bloodporting, is that it makes a design flaw in Cyrodill even worse: We only fight at or around keeps.
    With forward camp, 90% of the map is not fought over, and we are stuck fighting around mostly copy pasted keeps.

    Since the camps are gone people are complaining not because they miss the camps, but because now they feel that issue much more. Since the only game objectives are keeps and their resources, people feel that the ride there however short it is is still "useless".

    Thereintroduction of camps would just hide that flaw again while making it worse at the same time.
    The way to address all of this is to add intermediary objectives. Things like guard towers that spawn patrols that detect stealth, stables that increase mount speed, control over quest towns that make friendly NPCs fend of gankers, actual forward camps which spawn NPCs to have a position to fall back after a failed assault and so on.

    In short, FC are not necessary for the well being of the game ,quite the contrary, however what anoys detractors of the removal needs to be addressed by making Cyrodill a more lively place.
  • morvegil
    morvegil
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    =========== NO FORWARD CAMPS===========

    Its ruins the beautiful battlefield we have.

    Its makes you think about strategy.

    It makes so you can insta zerg a keep.

    It helps the -=Bridge Bandits=- gank all of you elite players.

    Lo'ke
    Nord Vampire
    Nightblade
    Shield+BOW

    Daggerfall Covenant
    Bandit King
    Bridge Bandits Guild
  • morvegil
    morvegil
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    The current state of Forward Camps internally have some UI issues we're still working through before we put them on a public test realm so while I'd like to get them to you to try, they really aren't too functional at the moment.

    We would want them implemented with many of the suggestions made here with reduced radius and respawning within the circle only, but also with a universal timer for using forward camps. Until we get the UI for all of that in and working, they won't be available to test.

    This leads to multiple side problems like fights that should not have lasted long become the equivalent of trench wars in WW1 evolving sluggishly and not reaching any conclusions until someone fails rather than someone succeeding.
    Until then, no one checks the map to see if they could be needed elsewhere.

    So in a world without camps where the bridge is effectively a 'trench' where no one ever succeeds or fails because running back from Alessia or Sej is how the majority of the pvp population play.

    Where is the difference between when we had camps in your eyes?

    You can take another bridge around....if you cant take Alessia Bridge thats what you do.
    Lo'ke
    Nord Vampire
    Nightblade
    Shield+BOW

    Daggerfall Covenant
    Bandit King
    Bridge Bandits Guild
  • Ezareth
    Ezareth
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    As a player who left while there was still an occasional forward camp being used to one who has returned and have seen none, I find sieges to be far more boring.

    I was the guy who always circled the whole keep to burn forward camps and I have no desire to operate siege equipment. Now I end up waiting for the batch of pugs to finish sieging the front door before I can do much that is useful. There needs to be more useful things for players who are not actively focused on sieging to do while sieging keeps. Yes I know there are some things you could do like pick off straglers coming in or clearing NPCs but if there are no straglers and no NPCs in the area being sieged that is kind of worthless.

    Just an observation I guess. I still have a ton of Forward Camps in my bank ( =
    Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
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  • frosth.darkomenb16_ESO
    frosth.darkomenb16_ESO
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    As a player who left while there was still an occasional forward camp being used to one who has returned and have seen none, I find sieges to be far more boring.

    I was the guy who always circled the whole keep to burn forward camps and I have no desire to operate siege equipment. Now I end up waiting for the batch of pugs to finish sieging the front door before I can do much that is useful. There needs to be more useful things for players who are not actively focused on sieging to do while sieging keeps. Yes I know there are some things you could do like pick off straglers coming in or clearing NPCs but if there are no straglers and no NPCs in the area being sieged that is kind of worthless.

    Just an observation I guess. I still have a ton of Forward Camps in my bank ( =

    I agree.
    Something I suggested once but it got burried at the time, is to give resources more importance. Maybe keep the transitus network connected as long as there is one resources under the defenders control.

    This would make the keep assault be multi layered and have ellements of attacking and defending for both sides. Think of counter strike, as a terrorist, you start out as an attacker then as you plant the bomb, your role switch to a defender. That's two approach of the battlefield mixed in the normal process of reaching the win condition.

    For people like you, you would remain in the open field to make sure no ones try to sneak recapture resources. As the defenders have a reason to take the role of attackers, there should be no lack of targets for you and even just delaying them would contribute to the success of the overall assault.

    Forward camps really are the tree that hides the forest. There are a lot of ways that Cyrodill is dull that was masked by FCs, and now they need to be addressed.

    @ZOS_BrianWheeler‌ for your opinion on this.
  • Oughash
    Oughash
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    Digiman wrote: »
    I really can't see why they can reduce the radius of the circle to only be effective against one keep and the camp can be usable outside and not in a keep or tower or guard NPC's?

    They can't do that for gameplay reasons, not technical ones.

    The issue with forward camp, aside from the bloodporting, is that it makes a design flaw in Cyrodill even worse: We only fight at or around keeps.
    With forward camp, 90% of the map is not fought over, and we are stuck fighting around mostly copy pasted keeps.

    Since the camps are gone people are complaining not because they miss the camps, but because now they feel that issue much more. Since the only game objectives are keeps and their resources, people feel that the ride there however short it is is still "useless".

    Thereintroduction of camps would just hide that flaw again while making it worse at the same time.
    The way to address all of this is to add intermediary objectives. Things like guard towers that spawn patrols that detect stealth, stables that increase mount speed, control over quest towns that make friendly NPCs fend of gankers, actual forward camps which spawn NPCs to have a position to fall back after a failed assault and so on.

    In short, FC are not necessary for the well being of the game ,quite the contrary, however what anoys detractors of the removal needs to be addressed by making Cyrodill a more lively place.

    Well stated and written. You hit most of the let points with FCs. At this point, it doesn't matter what they add in between keeps, as long as they add something.
  • Xexpo
    Xexpo
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    We have talked about re-enabling in their current state on live but opted not to for various reasons such as issues mentioned here with blood-porting and server performance.
    please consider at all the agrees and lol's on the posts about this topic... (this thread and others)
    there are varying points of view on the topic
    please don't bork it for everyone


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  • sarttsarttsarttub17_ESO
    A very simple solution to the forward camp issue, you can only revive in the camps radius, this would solve death ports etc, also guild forward camps where only people from your guild can spawn in on them would be a bonus to pvp guilds. Even decorate the camps with guild colors, icons
    "You are the challenger here, after all. So to you goes the courtesy of the first blow. I'm waiting...."

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  • Draxys
    Draxys
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    WTS NA/AD forward camp placement 50k
    2013

    rip decibel
  • morvegil
    morvegil
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    forward camps were a bad idea. Sieges are better because now you can gank the supply lines.
    Lo'ke
    Nord Vampire
    Nightblade
    Shield+BOW

    Daggerfall Covenant
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    Bridge Bandits Guild
  • untranslated
    Im new to ESO in general. I can say one thing, nothing is more boring than getting to a castle, getting sniped, then spending another 5 minutes running back to the seige. I agree with having more things to do on the way to a seige or bringing back camps, anything that makes the die then just run for 5 minutes , maybe get snipe ganked. The running for 5 minutes is what gets to me. Maybe if there are more players on a server it will increase the PVP density making it more interesting.
  • TiberiusTryton
    TiberiusTryton
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    Delete them from the game forever!!! FC's are bad for ESO! BAD BAD BAD!

  • TiberiusTryton
    TiberiusTryton
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    Im new to ESO in general. I can say one thing, nothing is more boring than getting to a castle, getting sniped, then spending another 5 minutes running back to the seige. I agree with having more things to do on the way to a seige or bringing back camps, anything that makes the die then just run for 5 minutes , maybe get snipe ganked. The running for 5 minutes is what gets to me. Maybe if there are more players on a server it will increase the PVP density making it more interesting.

    Reinforcements cut off.... IMO it just allows for at least some type of tactics/strategies in PvP

  • billcage
    billcage
    But nothing changed about latency issues.I checked the lag before 20 minutes at Thornblade. Latency drops to 500-800 during keep siege
  • Ryuho
    Ryuho
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    billcage wrote: »
    But nothing changed about latency issues.I checked the lag before 20 minutes at Thornblade. Latency drops to 500-800 during keep siege

    + random fps drops.. sometimes fps instantly drop to 5 - 10 for like 5 - 10 seconds, then back to normal.. happend even in small scale (3 vs 3)
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