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1.6 - No Forward Camps Sold by Siege Merchants

  • Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
    Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
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    We are still looking at forward camps and whether they will be coming back in a modified form but for now and the foreseeable future, they are still not going to be sold by merchants or the crown store.

    @ZOS_BrianWheeler‌ Can you give us something to try and take it away again if you don't like it?

    p.s. that personal camp idea back a couple of months ago was genius so please look at it. (small camps size of sieges which only you can res at can have 1 on the map at a time and can pack up etc..)
    Edited by Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO on January 28, 2015 2:58PM
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  • Sallington
    Sallington
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    WebBull wrote: »
    LunaRae wrote: »
    synnerman wrote: »
    What happened to the promised return of revamped forward camps that was stated on ESO live???

    I might be remembering wrong, but I don't believe we shared a timeframe. We are still considering bringing them back, revamped. We don't have an ETA at this time, though.

    It won't happen for 1.6 - or 1.6.1, or 1.6.2, or any other 1.6.x - game is fine w/o forward camps right now.

    Key words "right now" but after the changes to buff keeps, buff siege, and for siege to ignore armor, there very well may be a need for modified camps going forward.

    100% agree.

    With making keeps harder to take, and sieges doing more damage to players, the nightcapping faction has a much easier time keeping the lead now.

    It might take them a few extra minutes to take a keep at 4am EST, but when we try to take them back during peak hours, they'll be much easier to defend.
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  • Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
    Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
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    The current state of Forward Camps internally have some UI issues we're still working through before we put them on a public test realm so while I'd like to get them to you to try, their usability isn't working until we get the UI fixed.

    great :) Just the type of update we like to hear thanks ^^
    When the EU chars get copied over with the update a lot of us will test it for you if you manage to get something there for then
    Edited by Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO on January 28, 2015 3:10PM
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  • Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
    Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
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    The current state of Forward Camps internally have some UI issues we're still working through before we put them on a public test realm so while I'd like to get them to you to try, they really aren't too functional at the moment.

    We would want them implemented with many of the suggestions made here with reduced radius and respawning within the circle only, but also with a universal timer for using forward camps. Until we get the UI for all of that in and working, they won't be available to test.

    Have you considered re-enabling on live whilst you fix them or is that option gone? Players on EU at least still have camps in circulation so would seem like a good option to give this to everyone not just the few who have the camps in my eyes.
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  • ZOS_BrianWheeler
    ZOS_BrianWheeler
    Lead PvP Designer
    We have talked about re-enabling in their current state on live but opted not to for various reasons such as issues mentioned here with blood-porting and server performance.
    Edited by ZOS_BrianWheeler on January 28, 2015 3:28PM
    Wheeler
    ESO PVP Lead & Combat Lead
    Staff Post
  • Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
    Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
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    We have talked about re-enabling in their current state on live but opted not to for various reasons such as issues mentioned here with blood-porting and server performance.

    @ZOS_BrianWheeler‌ The community at least from what I have observed is fairly split on whether its a good or bad thing.

    On EU for example the big guilds still have camps - so we can still blood port and group up in 20-40 blobs. Campaign performance is still bad even when camps aren't being used (it has improved slightly with the population reduction but the enjoyment of the campaign has dropped for at least the people I play with).

    The people at the disadvantage are returning players and players who don't have access to the guild bank stockpiles.

    I would suggest that server performance isn't going to get any worse with the re-introduction of camps because the population limit now wont let it. It might actually improve because I know certain guilds will be more inclined to spread out around cyro with the backup of camps to prevent horse simulator fatigue.

    However I understand if you don't want to risk trying it.

    Perhaps with Thornblade ending this weekend you trial existing camps for 2 weeks and monitor the lag (to sort this all out before B2P brings players back in).
    Edited by Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO on January 28, 2015 3:46PM
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  • Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
    Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
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    The current state of Forward Camps internally have some UI issues we're still working through before we put them on a public test realm so while I'd like to get them to you to try, they really aren't too functional at the moment.

    We would want them implemented with many of the suggestions made here with reduced radius and respawning within the circle only, but also with a universal timer for using forward camps. Until we get the UI for all of that in and working, they won't be available to test.

    This leads to multiple side problems like fights that should not have lasted long become the equivalent of trench wars in WW1 evolving sluggishly and not reaching any conclusions until someone fails rather than someone succeeding.
    Until then, no one checks the map to see if they could be needed elsewhere.

    So in a world without camps where the bridge is effectively a 'trench' where no one ever succeeds or fails because running back from Alessia or Sej is how the majority of the pvp population play.

    Where is the difference between when we had camps in your eyes?
    Edited by Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO on January 28, 2015 3:50PM
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  • frosth.darkomenb16_ESO
    frosth.darkomenb16_ESO
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    The current state of Forward Camps internally have some UI issues we're still working through before we put them on a public test realm so while I'd like to get them to you to try, they really aren't too functional at the moment.

    We would want them implemented with many of the suggestions made here with reduced radius and respawning within the circle only, but also with a universal timer for using forward camps. Until we get the UI for all of that in and working, they won't be available to test.

    This leads to multiple side problems like fights that should not have lasted long become the equivalent of trench wars in WW1 evolving sluggishly and not reaching any conclusions until someone fails rather than someone succeeding.
    Until then, no one checks the map to see if they could be needed elsewhere.

    So in a world without camps where the bridge is effectively a 'trench' where no one ever succeeds or fails because running back from Alessia or Sej is how the majority of the pvp population play.

    Where is the difference between when we had camps in your eyes?

    The difference is that if you were to manage one decisive push on the bridge, and wipe the opposing force, they won't respawn straight away 10m away but back at the next keep.
    You obtain progress faster and success is being rewarded more.

    Those stalemate should also occur less often with the next patch because the target cap is raised. Blobs in chokepoints should now be easier to deal with so learning how to fall back and push dynamically during a fight will be more interesting.
  • Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
    Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
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    The current state of Forward Camps internally have some UI issues we're still working through before we put them on a public test realm so while I'd like to get them to you to try, they really aren't too functional at the moment.

    We would want them implemented with many of the suggestions made here with reduced radius and respawning within the circle only, but also with a universal timer for using forward camps. Until we get the UI for all of that in and working, they won't be available to test.

    This leads to multiple side problems like fights that should not have lasted long become the equivalent of trench wars in WW1 evolving sluggishly and not reaching any conclusions until someone fails rather than someone succeeding.
    Until then, no one checks the map to see if they could be needed elsewhere.

    So in a world without camps where the bridge is effectively a 'trench' where no one ever succeeds or fails because running back from Alessia or Sej is how the majority of the pvp population play.

    Where is the difference between when we had camps in your eyes?

    The difference is that if you were to manage one decisive push on the bridge, and wipe the opposing force, they won't respawn straight away 10m away but back at the next keep.
    You obtain progress faster and success is being rewarded more.

    Those stalemate should also occur less often with the next patch because the target cap is raised. Blobs in chokepoints should now be easier to deal with so learning how to fall back and push dynamically during a fight will be more interesting.

    Only defenders could respawn so close with camps and only if you hadn't dealt with their camp with good siege strategy. Bridge has no progress its not a capturable or destructible and people go there because there are no camps.
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  • Kybotica
    Kybotica
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    DDuke wrote: »
    We are still looking at forward camps and whether they will be coming back in a modified form but for now and the foreseeable future, they are still not going to be sold by merchants or the crown store.

    I called it.

    Called what? To assume that just because he said "or the crown store" means they considered or are considering putting them there is quite the stretch. He probably only mentioned that because SOMEBODY ELSE brought it up first.

    Yeesh. Whoever is selling these tin foil hats must be filthy rich...

    If that isn't what you meant by "called it", then please explain.
    Edited by Kybotica on January 28, 2015 4:55PM
    M'iaq the Honest- PC/NA
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  • Jaxsun
    Jaxsun
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    LonePirate wrote: »
    Siege merchants in 1.6 do not have any forward camps for sale. If they are coming back to the game, they are not present in the current 1.6 build on the PTS.

    Lame.
    "Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist" -Pablo Picasso

    500 Agrees
  • Jaxsun
    Jaxsun
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    Dalglish wrote: »
    Lava_Croft wrote: »
    No need for camps. Only losers need camps.

    Only boring pvpers don't need camps.
    Only bad PvP players need camps, because the good ones don't die often enough to justify the existence of camps.

    Not all of us hide in the shadows waiting to ambush > fear and then go back into shadows :)

    Camps need to be brought back with a maximum radius of death and a res sickness.

    I like this, a lot. Especially the res sickness. It would need either time to clear or be cleared by a purge/purifying ritual.
    "Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist" -Pablo Picasso

    500 Agrees
  • Erondil
    Erondil
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    Lava_Croft wrote: »
    No need for camps. Only losers need camps.

    Only boring pvpers don't need camps.
    Only bad PvP players need camps, because the good ones don't die often enough to justify the existence of camps.

    Ofc when you are following the pug zerg between sejanus and brk/nikel and ash, playing "solo" you dont need camps. I'm mostly a duel/1vX player, and pvp without camps it just... 3 zergs on the whole map. Because ppl dont want to ride 10 mins to open another front.
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  • Lava_Croft
    Lava_Croft
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    Lava_Croft wrote: »
    No need for camps. Only losers need camps.

    Only boring pvpers don't need camps.
    Only bad PvP players need camps, because the good ones don't die often enough to justify the existence of camps.

    If you justify good as hiding in the back of a 50 people zerg then never spawn at a camp which is placed.

    If you try being good enough to fight against the odds 12 vs 40+ and try things on the map then you would see that this stimulates more varied and interesting pvp in cyro.

    Or perhaps you like the lag of 60 reds inside Alessia flipping the flags by numbers alone at 1am because it means the zerg cant die as no abilities or siege is working due to the fact that the fight is concentrated in one area because there are no camps.
    Don't die so much and the lack of camps won't bother you so much. It's not anyone's but your own problem that you like to suicide into zergs, hoping you make more AP than you give to your enemy.
    Xuth.
  • Gooey
    Gooey
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    We have talked about re-enabling in their current state on live but opted not to for various reasons such as issues mentioned here with blood-porting and server performance.

    You should try them out, who knows about the server performance since the cap was reduced. As for blood-porting... C'mon, who doesn't like to farm people all day and get AP.
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  • Rakshat
    Rakshat
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    I don't get it, Cyrodiil is a PvP zone. Is it wrong of me to want to actually do PvP instead of playing Horse Simulator and World of Tanks?
    Raven Ashcrown
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  • Mojomonkeyman
    Mojomonkeyman
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    Lava_Croft wrote: »
    Lava_Croft wrote: »
    No need for camps. Only losers need camps.

    Only boring pvpers don't need camps.
    Only bad PvP players need camps, because the good ones don't die often enough to justify the existence of camps.

    If you justify good as hiding in the back of a 50 people zerg then never spawn at a camp which is placed.

    If you try being good enough to fight against the odds 12 vs 40+ and try things on the map then you would see that this stimulates more varied and interesting pvp in cyro.

    Or perhaps you like the lag of 60 reds inside Alessia flipping the flags by numbers alone at 1am because it means the zerg cant die as no abilities or siege is working due to the fact that the fight is concentrated in one area because there are no camps.
    Don't die so much and the lack of camps won't bother you so much. It's not anyone's but your own problem that you like to suicide into zergs, hoping you make more AP than you give to your enemy.

    So, waiting inmidst of 100 allies for low HP targets to ambush/impale on and disappear into cloakspam afterwards is good play and something to brag about?

    Exciting, mechanically demanding and tactically very impressive, too! Teach us, master!
    Edited by Mojomonkeyman on January 30, 2015 4:12PM
    Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo (MMR too high, RIP) & Mighty Mojo Monkey
  • Lava_Croft
    Lava_Croft
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    Lava_Croft wrote: »
    Lava_Croft wrote: »
    No need for camps. Only losers need camps.

    Only boring pvpers don't need camps.
    Only bad PvP players need camps, because the good ones don't die often enough to justify the existence of camps.

    If you justify good as hiding in the back of a 50 people zerg then never spawn at a camp which is placed.

    If you try being good enough to fight against the odds 12 vs 40+ and try things on the map then you would see that this stimulates more varied and interesting pvp in cyro.

    Or perhaps you like the lag of 60 reds inside Alessia flipping the flags by numbers alone at 1am because it means the zerg cant die as no abilities or siege is working due to the fact that the fight is concentrated in one area because there are no camps.
    Don't die so much and the lack of camps won't bother you so much. It's not anyone's but your own problem that you like to suicide into zergs, hoping you make more AP than you give to your enemy.

    So, waiting inmidst of 100 allies for low HP targets to ambush/impale on and disappear into cloakspam afterwards is good play and something to brag about?

    Exciting, mechanically demanding and tactically very impressive, too! Teach us, master!
    It's very simple: Die less often.
    Xuth.
  • Lorkhan
    Lorkhan
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    We are still looking at forward camps and whether they will be coming back in a modified form but for now and the foreseeable future, they are still not going to be sold by merchants or the crown store.

    ok. but just to say... i'm +1 for foward camps. i miss it. it was nice to be back in action so fast after death. game is slower now. but horses will be better, so.... life will improve a bit
  • Fivefivesix
    Fivefivesix
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    We are still looking at forward camps and whether they will be coming back in a modified form but for now and the foreseeable future, they are still not going to be sold by merchants or the crown store.

    Good. I like PvP without them

    United we stand, divided we fall.
  • Columba
    Columba
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    The current state of Forward Camps internally have some UI issues we're still working through before we put them on a public test realm so while I'd like to get them to you to try, they really aren't too functional at the moment.

    We would want them implemented with many of the suggestions made here with reduced radius and respawning within the circle only, but also with a universal timer for using forward camps. Until we get the UI for all of that in and working, they won't be available to test.

    This leads to multiple side problems like fights that should not have lasted long become the equivalent of trench wars in WW1 evolving sluggishly and not reaching any conclusions until someone fails rather than someone succeeding.
    Until then, no one checks the map to see if they could be needed elsewhere.

    So in a world without camps where the bridge is effectively a 'trench' where no one ever succeeds or fails because running back from Alessia or Sej is how the majority of the pvp population play.

    Where is the difference between when we had camps in your eyes?

    Lol, learn to go around the bridge. Problem solved.

  • Columba
    Columba
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    Rakshat wrote: »
    I don't get it, Cyrodiil is a PvP zone. Is it wrong of me to want to actually do PvP instead of playing Horse Simulator and World of Tanks?

    If you are constantly riding on horses, you are doing something wrong.

  • Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
    Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
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    Columba wrote: »
    The current state of Forward Camps internally have some UI issues we're still working through before we put them on a public test realm so while I'd like to get them to you to try, they really aren't too functional at the moment.

    We would want them implemented with many of the suggestions made here with reduced radius and respawning within the circle only, but also with a universal timer for using forward camps. Until we get the UI for all of that in and working, they won't be available to test.

    This leads to multiple side problems like fights that should not have lasted long become the equivalent of trench wars in WW1 evolving sluggishly and not reaching any conclusions until someone fails rather than someone succeeding.
    Until then, no one checks the map to see if they could be needed elsewhere.

    So in a world without camps where the bridge is effectively a 'trench' where no one ever succeeds or fails because running back from Alessia or Sej is how the majority of the pvp population play.

    Where is the difference between when we had camps in your eyes?

    Lol, learn to go around the bridge. Problem solved.

    Perhaps I wasn't clear I'm talking about the majority of pugs on our server not myself.
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  • Hutuldur
    Hutuldur
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    I like PVP without camps. Riding with fast horse won't take long between the keeps anyway.

    Anyway, some suggestions, if camps come back:
    - You can only use camp, if you die on it's area.
    - Area can be the same size than now, or a bit smaller.
    -Each player can only use each camp once. You get a 2nd chance, but it gives fear of death.
    - After the camp expires or is destroyed, it leaves a ghost camp for 20-30 minutes, which can't be used, but prevents new camps in the same area.

    This helps behind the line excursions, but keeps fear of death and makes the camp something is worth defending as you can't just keep replacing them.
  • Talcyndl
    Talcyndl
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    We are still looking at forward camps and whether they will be coming back in a modified form but for now and the foreseeable future, they are still not going to be sold by merchants or the crown store.

    Similar to how you guys are still looking at Mercenaries? ;)
    Tal'gro Bol
    PvP Vice Officer [Retired] and Huscarl of Vokundein
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  • ZOS_BrianWheeler
    ZOS_BrianWheeler
    Lead PvP Designer
    Mercs will not be making a comeback like L.L. Camps are still being investigated though.
    Wheeler
    ESO PVP Lead & Combat Lead
    Staff Post
  • Lava_Croft
    Lava_Croft
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    Mercs will not be making a comeback like L.L. Camps are still being investigated though.
    Finally, a confirmation! Thank you!
    Xuth.
  • Lorkhan
    Lorkhan
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    mercs never more! great
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