Upset about changes to DK ability Ash Cloud and it's morphs

Djeriko · February 2015

Can you please bring back the miss chance to the Dragonknight ability Ash Cloud and its morph Cinder Storm. We Do Not need ground targeting, non-miss chance ash cloud and its morphs. Granted the idea to give eruption morph fire damage on cast was a good choice sense eruption is exactly what it should do. My point is how can someone really fight effectively with ash and smoke in their face? The answer is they can't so the miss chance was completely logical. If you want, lower it from 30% miss chance to 20%. But put it back on the ability. If it means we lose the ground targeting part, I'm cool with that. If the main reason it's been changed because it was powerful then you have to remember it's the last skill in that tree so it's supposed to be strong. Your changes make me want to not use that ability at all. If I want a ground targeted aoe with DOT I will get the mages guild scalding rune. Why clone scalding rune and put it on the DK skill line?

Idea to run with:

Ash Cloud is player based aoe on cast that stays where it was cast. Causes snare and miss chance of 20% at max level.

Cinder Storm same tool tip as Ash cloud except it cases flame damage over time. Increased damage as level increases. This way you get player based aoe with snare, miss chance and flame damage over time.

Eruption can have your ground targeting effect with the flame damage upon cast. Causes snare and disorientation, lasts as long on the ground as the other morphs but no miss chance. The added disorientation to enemies on cast makes up for lost miss chance.

With these viable options, the Dragonknight can chose to play as defense or offense. Does this not sound better than just completely scrapping a very loved ability that will now become far less used based on the changes coming in 1.6?

Aimelin · February 2015

Djeriko wrote: »

Can you please bring back the miss chance to the Dragonknight ability Ash Cloud and its morph Cinder Storm. We Do Not need ground targeting, non-miss chance ash cloud and its morphs. Granted the idea to give eruption morph fire damage on cast was a good choice sense eruption is exactly what it should do. My point is how can someone really fight effectively with ash and smoke in their face? The answer is they can't so the miss chance was completely logical. If you want, lower it from 30% miss chance to 20%. But put it back on the ability. If it means we lose the ground targeting part, I'm cool with that. If the main reason it's been changed because it was powerful then you have to remember it's the last skill in that tree so it's supposed to be strong. Your changes make me want to not use that ability at all. If I want a ground targeted aoe with DOT I will get the mages guild scalding rune. Why clone scalding rune and put it on the DK skill line?

Idea to run with:

Ash Cloud is player based aoe on cast that stays where it was cast. Causes snare and miss chance of 20% at max level.

Cinder Storm same tool tip as Ash cloud except it cases flame damage over time. Increased damage as level increases. This way you get player based aoe with snare, miss chance and flame damage over time.

Eruption can have your ground targeting effect with the flame damage upon cast. Causes snare and disorientation, lasts as long on the ground as the other morphs but no miss chance. The added disorientation to enemies on cast makes up for lost miss chance.

With these viable options, the Dragonknight can chose to play as defense or offense. Does this not sound better than just completely scrapping a very loved ability that will now become far less used based on the changes coming in 1.6?

No, just .... no.

miss chance is extremely unbalanced in pvp, i'm glad they took it from every ability that had it. it should not be in the game, you want players to miss? get dodge %

xylena · February 2015

(1) to be consistent with 1.6 removing the miss chance mechanic, ash cloud could give "minor evasion" to all allies within the aoe and function similarly to the 1.5 version

(2) not sure why the range can't be the same 28m base as volcanic rune or caltrops

(3) the aoe disorient of eruption in 1.5 has been replaced by light aoe damage, why? it was an excellent crowd control move for stamina dk in 1.5, as it did not depend on magicka or spell power, but now the eruption morph is useless on stamina builds

Aimelin · February 2015

xylena wrote: »

(1) to be consistent with 1.6 removing the miss chance mechanic, ash cloud could give "minor evasion" to all allies within the aoe and function similarly to the 1.5 version

(2) not sure why the range can't be the same 28m base as volcanic rune or caltrops

(3) the aoe disorient of eruption in 1.5 has been replaced by light aoe damage, why? it was an excellent crowd control move for stamina dk in 1.5, as it did not depend on magicka or spell power, but now the eruption morph is useless on stamina builds

you're basically saying:

(1) only give dks a similar effect of miss chance, screw other classes, dks get almost everything allready, why not this

(2) see below

(3) dks don't have enough ccs, ontop of talons plix give dks 28m aoe disorient + dmg + dodge chance, cuz you know, we're not OP / broken enough

XEVENEX · February 2015

Not only are you immune to half of the abilities and ultimates in the game, but you reflect them onto the caster for 130% of the damage that they can do with their own skill. This is absolutely and utterly absurd.

Dragon Knight's might need some love in other areas, but as long as this abomination exists in the game, I can never take a DK QQ thread seriously.

If I played DK, I would be begging for them to make scales an absorb instead of a reflect.

Aimelin · February 2015

XEVENEX wrote: »

Not only are you immune to half of the abilities and ultimates in the game, but you reflect them onto the caster for 130% of the damage that they can do with their own skill. This is absolutely and utterly absurd.

Dragon Knight's might need some love in other areas, but as long as this abomination exists in the game, I can never take a DK QQ thread seriously.

If I played DK, I would be begging for them to make scales an absorb instead of a reflect.

one does not simply make a DK QQ thread, if someone makes one, its caus DKs came across a serious issue that needs to be fixed asap .....

ElliottXO · February 2015

Regardless if you think the miss chance was OP or not, the skill in its current form on the PTS seems useless.

I'm certainly not going to use it with my tank anymore. Does anyone else see any use case for it after the nerf?

asteldian · February 2015

If they gave back the miss cchance, they would have to do the same for Templars, given they replace our skill entirely that won't happen, so afraid you will have to live without it. At least you guys still have some cc.

xylena · February 2015

i wouldn't actually want all 3 of those to happen together now that i look at it...

and to be fair, if i never see talons again in pvp, i would be a happy xylena... talons is the dk ability that needs to be overhauled, not my poor zero-damage ash clouds, nobody is getting perma-rooted by ash clouds, they didn't deserve this QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ

Domander · February 2015

They're now a snare with a little damage.... meh, lame.

I'd like a redesign.

xylena · February 2015

i'll be giving the ranged cinder storm with the increased snare duration a shot on my bow bar, but so far on PTS the range hasn't seemed very useful

Djeriko · February 2015

Aimelin wrote: »

Djeriko wrote: »

Can you please bring back the miss chance to the Dragonknight ability Ash Cloud and its morph Cinder Storm. We Do Not need ground targeting, non-miss chance ash cloud and its morphs. Granted the idea to give eruption morph fire damage on cast was a good choice sense eruption is exactly what it should do. My point is how can someone really fight effectively with ash and smoke in their face? The answer is they can't so the miss chance was completely logical. If you want, lower it from 30% miss chance to 20%. But put it back on the ability. If it means we lose the ground targeting part, I'm cool with that. If the main reason it's been changed because it was powerful then you have to remember it's the last skill in that tree so it's supposed to be strong. Your changes make me want to not use that ability at all. If I want a ground targeted aoe with DOT I will get the mages guild scalding rune. Why clone scalding rune and put it on the DK skill line?

Idea to run with:

Ash Cloud is player based aoe on cast that stays where it was cast. Causes snare and miss chance of 20% at max level.

Cinder Storm same tool tip as Ash cloud except it cases flame damage over time. Increased damage as level increases. This way you get player based aoe with snare, miss chance and flame damage over time.

Eruption can have your ground targeting effect with the flame damage upon cast. Causes snare and disorientation, lasts as long on the ground as the other morphs but no miss chance. The added disorientation to enemies on cast makes up for lost miss chance.

With these viable options, the Dragonknight can chose to play as defense or offense. Does this not sound better than just completely scrapping a very loved ability that will now become far less used based on the changes coming in 1.6?

No, just .... no.

miss chance is extremely unbalanced in pvp, i'm glad they took it from every ability that had it. it should not be in the game, you want players to miss? get dodge %

ElliottXO wrote: »

Regardless if you think the miss chance was OP or not, the skill in its current form on the PTS seems useless.

I'm certainly not going to use it with my tank anymore. Does anyone else see any use case for it after the nerf?

This is exactly my point. They change skills now because they are too powerful or they are never used. Now they turn the skill into a useless one. When it goes live I won't be the only one complaining about a good skill being thrown to the wayside because someone got mad that they were missing. Do they complain when their opponent uses a dodge maneuver too? a DK heavy shouldn't have to dodge, they should stand their ground and either take the hit or make it miss. Let the medium armor ones dodge and the light armor ones absorb.

And by the way dodge and miss are too different mechanics because miss deals with area inside the spell and dodge is just the player using it. Its just logical that ash and smoke in your face should mess with your ability to fight. Ever tried fighting after someone throws sand in your eyes?

kkampaseb17_ESO · February 2015

Djeriko wrote: »

Aimelin wrote: »

Djeriko wrote: »

Can you please bring back the miss chance to the Dragonknight ability Ash Cloud and its morph Cinder Storm. We Do Not need ground targeting, non-miss chance ash cloud and its morphs. Granted the idea to give eruption morph fire damage on cast was a good choice sense eruption is exactly what it should do. My point is how can someone really fight effectively with ash and smoke in their face? The answer is they can't so the miss chance was completely logical. If you want, lower it from 30% miss chance to 20%. But put it back on the ability. If it means we lose the ground targeting part, I'm cool with that. If the main reason it's been changed because it was powerful then you have to remember it's the last skill in that tree so it's supposed to be strong. Your changes make me want to not use that ability at all. If I want a ground targeted aoe with DOT I will get the mages guild scalding rune. Why clone scalding rune and put it on the DK skill line?

Idea to run with:

Ash Cloud is player based aoe on cast that stays where it was cast. Causes snare and miss chance of 20% at max level.

Cinder Storm same tool tip as Ash cloud except it cases flame damage over time. Increased damage as level increases. This way you get player based aoe with snare, miss chance and flame damage over time.

Eruption can have your ground targeting effect with the flame damage upon cast. Causes snare and disorientation, lasts as long on the ground as the other morphs but no miss chance. The added disorientation to enemies on cast makes up for lost miss chance.

With these viable options, the Dragonknight can chose to play as defense or offense. Does this not sound better than just completely scrapping a very loved ability that will now become far less used based on the changes coming in 1.6?

No, just .... no.

miss chance is extremely unbalanced in pvp, i'm glad they took it from every ability that had it. it should not be in the game, you want players to miss? get dodge %

ElliottXO wrote: »

Regardless if you think the miss chance was OP or not, the skill in its current form on the PTS seems useless.

I'm certainly not going to use it with my tank anymore. Does anyone else see any use case for it after the nerf?

This is exactly my point. They change skills now because they are too powerful or they are never used. Now they turn the skill into a useless one. When it goes live I won't be the only one complaining about a good skill being thrown to the wayside because someone got mad that they were missing. Do they complain when their opponent uses a dodge maneuver too? a DK heavy shouldn't have to dodge, they should stand their ground and either take the hit or make it miss. Let the medium armor ones dodge and the light armor ones absorb.

And by the way dodge and miss are too different mechanics because miss deals with area inside the spell and dodge is just the player using it. Its just logical that ash and smoke in your face should mess with your ability to fight. Ever tried fighting after someone throws sand in your eyes?

I think you can take ok the blow as heavy. It is called block? Just posting for the dodge analogy.

You don't need Cinder storm and never did. If they keep Cinder storm miss chance how about they also bring back Sparks too? It was fun to see DKs try to use their Flame lash and anything else melee oriented.

pppontus · February 2015

ElliottXO wrote: »

Regardless if you think the miss chance was OP or not, the skill in its current form on the PTS seems useless.

I'm certainly not going to use it with my tank anymore. Does anyone else see any use case for it after the nerf?

Yes, does good damage. I believe it's in all DK magicka DPS builds.

Aquanova · February 2015

ZOS! Stick to your guns. You had a reason for taking the miss chance away when creating this new morph. You ppl asking for the miss chance for ash cloud and a stam flame lash morph fail to see the repercussions of these requests. If either were to be implemented, worse case both, then I'm sure, even without other classes calling for it, we would get nerfed again just for the sake of " balance". You guys really need to think before you ask for trivial things. Are you unable to play PvP or PvE without these changes? I'm betting you can. If you can't, then you really need to reevaluate your play style or play another game. If you can't ADAPT, then your dinosaur!

Rook_Master · February 2015

DK is still stupid OP even without 30% miss chance.

Now you are getting and instant dmg AoE attack with a 70% snare that lasts for 2.5 seconds after they leave the area. I don't see the problem.

AhPook_Is_Here · February 2015

I'm sure you noticed they removed all of those abilities from every class and from the weapons as well. I don't think they want x% to miss in the game any longer.

it will be a nice thing to stack with liquid lighting and veil in those little keep breeches and on the stairs up to slaughter-house-u.

Djeriko · February 2015

Even if the miss chance was called op by anyone, it could be managed easily without scraping the whole thing and giving us something that will be used much less than anything. Don't forget this is supposed to be the last skill in the earthen heart which if you want to compare it to something that definitely needs to be nerfed like the new Templar maxed skill radiant destruction it pales in comparison. What should have been done is reduce the miss chance to 15 or 20% which would make it par with dodge chance. They could also make it so that miss chance didn't stack, like say lots of dks casting it all in the same area. Granted DK's can still cast it all in the same area except now they can throw it at your faces from a far. I notice everyone complaining about it isn't a fan of DK's. If I have to adapt for this then I shall but I won't be alone when lots of DK's show this new skill won't be used as much any more since it no longer serves a purpose and will be substituted for something else instead. It's a waste of a higher skill slot in my opinion.

Rook_Master wrote: »

DK is still stupid OP even without 30% miss chance.

Now you are getting and instant dmg AoE attack with a 70% snare that lasts for 2.5 seconds after they leave the area. I don't see the problem.

Also you just described both morphs at the same time. The lasting snare for 2.5 seconds on one morph is nothing, now the only slightly useful morph is the eruption morph which causes the instant damage and no lasting snare once they leave the aoe.

Aimelin · February 2015

Rook_Master wrote: »

DK is still stupid OP even without 30% miss chance.

Now you are getting and instant dmg AoE attack with a 70% snare that lasts for 2.5 seconds after they leave the area. I don't see the problem.

DKs are crying caus they have a "useless" skill, they all lost their OP cheez builds with 1.6, the tears are real man, but ppl still claim DKs arent OP in 1.6 lol

Armitas · February 2015

I have seen 0 complaints about the miss chance of Cinderstorm until now, so if it's so OP then where were all your prior complaints about it? Seems a little ad hoc right now.

You can stand at the edge of cinderstorm and hit the DK inside with 0 miss chance, 0 damage with all your abilities. Having to take 1 step back is not OP.

This is the highest cost skill there is for DK's. The cast cost is not worth Cinderstorm. 70% snare you can roll out of, skirt, or ignore should not be a T5 skill with maximum cast cost.

You guys gross deleted miss chance but did not bother to replace it with anything useful on Cinderstorm. Please review it and give us a good morph back. Most of us are not uspset about the miss chance per say, but rather that you removed something and did not replace it with something of equal value, not even close.

Personally I would like to see some sort of group buff with this because we used it as a group buff for pvp and for pve tanking. With the loss of igneous weapons we now only have igneous shield as a group buff cast, it would be nice to have 2 (aware of the passive). Either way give us something in return for the loss of miss chance and disorient.

Rook_Master · February 2015

Aimelin wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

DK is still stupid OP even without 30% miss chance.

Now you are getting and instant dmg AoE attack with a 70% snare that lasts for 2.5 seconds after they leave the area. I don't see the problem.

DKs are crying caus they have a "useless" skill, they all lost their OP cheez builds with 1.6, the tears are real man, but ppl still claim DKs arent OP in 1.6 lol

Seriously, you wanna talk about useless skills, ask any Nightblade about Anguish.

killedbyping · March 2015

I actualy think that skill might be very good for pvp now. It have big AOE, it is insta cast, have decent damage and despites Impule it can be casted at decent range.