My one and only concern is with DLCs, please read why

marcmyb14_ESO · February 2015

Upon hearing about the game going B2P, I was not concerned that there were going to be any issues nor that the game was going to go downhill in any way (except for perhaps seeing a longer delay in getting updates). However, this somewhat changed when I read that players of all levels will be scaled (or "battle-leveled") to the new DLC content. Here is why this concerns me: If for example a level 1 player, with no skills, stat points, gear, etc. can go into a new DLC zone and will be able to do the content, what will happen if a VR14 with gold gear, max health/stamina/magicka/armor/resist, 300 skill points, champion points, food, pots, etc. go there? Is it safe to assume that that character will find the content to be fairly easy and get bored due to lack of a challenge? Coming from VR zones and Craglorn, trials, veteran dungeons, max leveled players don't want a walk in the park. We want to continuously be challenged, and we want to be rewarded for it as well. If the new DLC content will be available to all levels, what kind of rewards will we be getting at max level? The same gear set that a level 1 can get, just scaled to VR14? If so, what incentive will we have to keep leveling other than to get champion points, skill points, etc. Why will players want to keep playing beyond a certain point? I believe an MMO _needs_ an endgame area that players can look forward to and that will really challenge them and reward them for their hard work. If you don't provide this, players won't be inclined to keep playing. Just my 2 cents.

ZOS, please shed some light on this. Will the game also try to cater to endgame players as well as lower level players, or are endgame players out of luck?

Syntse · February 2015

We'll see for sure how it goes once the first one appears.

What I've heard that the leveled zones will work similar to Cyrodiil that lower leveled players get boosted.

For gear drops I supposed they will be leveled and scale to person who picks it up. And most likely there will be dungeons and trials that are for the end-gamers where then the more exclusive gear are handed out.

sparafucilsarwb17_ESO · February 2015

I completely agree, as it is the zones are far too easy. New content should be more challenging and fun.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · February 2015

iam not all that worried if you go and do cadwells silver and gold you find your self in the other factions starting area, but the mobs level to you

Akiho · February 2015

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

iam not all that worried if you go and do cadwells silver and gold you find your self in the other factions starting area, but the mobs level to you

Yes but as it is killing vr1 mobs with a vr1 character is ridiculously easy, you have to gather around 5 or more at once to get any kind of challenge

marcmyb14_ESO · February 2015

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

iam not all that worried if you go and do cadwells silver and gold you find your self in the other factions starting area, but the mobs level to you

No, they don't level to you, they are completely separated from those other factions players and they're only available to your faction. For example, if you're Ebonheart, Glenumbra is VR1.

RainfeatherUK · February 2015

DLC will allow people to go there straight away as you've said. So I dont expect it to be tough for anyone, or they wouldnt be accounting for the difference in skill/experience between a higher level 'visitor' and a lower level one who is relatively new to the game

Elloa regularly says; that as with the revamped intro sequence at the start of the game, the focus on DLC is on improving the cinematography - and potentially the story telling quality - of ESO. I agree with her observation on this focus for the better part.

Scaling systems are notoriusly terrible and there isnt any money in making this game anything but casual from now on, despite a smaller demographic like us wishing for it.

marcmyb14_ESO · February 2015

RainfeatherUK wrote: »

DLC will allow people to go there straight away as you've said. So I dont expect it to be tough for anyone, or they wouldnt be accounting for the difference in skill/experience between a higher level 'visitor' and a lower level one who is relatively new to the game

Elloa regularly says; that as with the revamped intro sequence at the start of the game, the focus on DLC is on improving the cinematography - and potentially the story telling quality - of ESO. I agree with her observation on this focus for the better part.

Scaling systems are notoriusly terrible and there isnt any money in making this game anything but casual from now on, despite a smaller demographic like us wishing for it.

That's not very hopeful.

LOTRO made the mistake of assuming that most people weren't raiders, that game isn't doing very well atm. If ZOS goes down this route and doesn't do anything to cater to people at endgame, the game will surely die.

RainfeatherUK · February 2015

marcmyb14_ESO wrote: »

That's not very hopeful.

I'm in the same camp as you believe me. I play PvP mostly because of its challenge. PvE in many games I've played have sadly offered little - primarily because they have gone through this same transition into a casual market/appeal.

In certain games they develop content with variable difficulty (usually these are instances with various challenge modes) for those who seek it. So Obviously it can be done

I've just yet to see anything to suggest that intent here and prefer to lean towards caution to avoid disappointment lol.

I'll hope for my sake and yours that im wrong ofcourse but considering the current market (where people can only find one or two single player games that are actually 'tough') well you know how it is I expect.

marcmyb14_ESO · February 2015

RainfeatherUK wrote: »

marcmyb14_ESO wrote: »

That's not very hopeful.

I'm in the same camp as you believe me. I play PvP mostly because of its challenge. PvE in many games I've played have sadly offered little - primarily because they have gone through this same transition into a casual market/appeal.

In certain games they develop content with variable difficulty (usually these are instances with various challenge modes) for those who seek it. So Obviously it can be done

I've just yet to see anything to suggest that intent here and prefer to lean towards caution to avoid disappointment lol.

I'll hope for my sake and yours that im wrong ofcourse but considering the current market (where people can only find one or two single player games that are actually 'tough') well you know how it is I expect.

I am primarily a PvE player, I enjoy working together with friends or a group of people to overcome a tough challenge, e.g. a boss fight with complex mechanics. I always kind of felt that PvP in MMOs gets too monotonous after a while, but I do occasionally like it as well.

I just really think that PvE is where MMOs shine, most multiplayer co-op games aren't very hard or rewarding, but MMOs give people the chance to play a certain role and work together as a group to do something that would be impossible solo. It would be a shame to see that go to waste, as I think that is the fundamental purpose of this genre.

Aeeeek · February 2015

oops - wrong thread

Kragorn · February 2015

marcmyb14_ESO wrote: »

LOTRO made the mistake of assuming that most people weren't raiders, that game isn't doing very well atm. If ZOS goes down this route and doesn't do anything to cater to people at endgame, the game will surely die.

There is no MMO where raiders are anything than that a small minority, LOTRO's problems aren't related to that issue very much at all.

You probably find it unpalatable but the the B2P model isn't based on retaining players much at all, it's entirely focused on churn where players aren't expected to play 'forever' and content is aimed at attracting new players and encouraging them to spend cash in the Store; the B2P model doesn't need raiders, the content they demand is expensive to produce in comparison to the revenue it attracts when players get to choose what they want to spend their cash on.

Turning back to LOTRO, the fact the raid 'scene' was killed off 3 years ago or so isn't the reason the game is lamentable, it's in the sorry state it is due to Warner Bros. decision to milk the players and, it has to be said, the players' willingness to be milked, all in the name of Middle-Earth.

marcmyb14_ESO · February 2015

Kragorn wrote: »

marcmyb14_ESO wrote: »

LOTRO made the mistake of assuming that most people weren't raiders, that game isn't doing very well atm. If ZOS goes down this route and doesn't do anything to cater to people at endgame, the game will surely die.

There is no MMO where raiders are anything than that a small minority, LOTRO's problems aren't related to that issue very much at all.

I know LOTRO has a lot of issues, their F2P model being the most obvious, and maybe raiders are a minority, but that's not an excuse to not have an endgame. And I don't believe the minority is that small either, unless you only count raiders as those people who raid very frequently.

Also, let us not forget that the most popular MMO on the market to this day, WoW, is known as a (if not THE) raiding MMO. It would be silly to assume raiding is irrelevant.

marcmyb14_ESO · February 2015

Kragorn wrote: »

marcmyb14_ESO wrote: »

LOTRO made the mistake of assuming that most people weren't raiders, that game isn't doing very well atm. If ZOS goes down this route and doesn't do anything to cater to people at endgame, the game will surely die.

You probably find it unpalatable but the the B2P model isn't based on retaining players much at all, it's entirely focused on churn where players aren't expected to play 'forever' and content is aimed at attracting new players and encouraging them to spend cash in the Store; the B2P model doesn't need raiders, the content they demand is expensive to produce in comparison to the revenue it attracts when players get to choose what they want to spend their cash on.

Turning back to LOTRO, the fact the raid 'scene' was killed off 3 years ago or so isn't the reason the game is lamentable, it's in the sorry state it is due to Warner Bros. decision to milk the players and, it has to be said, the players' willingness to be milked, all in the name of Middle-Earth.

Very much agreed, I just hope that considering ZOS is also keeping the sub along with B2P, they will give subbers something that will make them want to stay subbed other than what they've advertised so far.

Aeeeek · February 2015

LOTRO's biggest mistake was changing to be more like WOW. Becoming a shadow of the leader is still becoming a shadow.
EVE Online couldn't be more different and is still growing.
I hope ESO holds true to its own muse, The total pool of players is bigger than its ever been.

RainfeatherUK · February 2015

marcmyb14_ESO wrote: »

I am primarily a PvE player, I enjoy working together with friends or a group of people to overcome a tough challenge, e.g. a boss fight with complex mechanics. I always kind of felt that PvP in MMOs gets too monotonous after a while, but I do occasionally like it as well.

I just really think that PvE is where MMOs shine, most multiplayer co-op games aren't very hard or rewarding, but MMOs give people the chance to play a certain role and work together as a group to do something that would be impossible solo. It would be a shame to see that go to waste, as I think that is the fundamental purpose of this genre.

I enjoy PvP because of the inpredicatable human element. For me; once I understand the general AI capability of the game; there is very little they can do for me to make it interesting/worthy of repeat play. Without introducing essential rewards or artificial hurdles like scalling up enemy HP anyway. Which isnt much fun and something Id do more for the sake of friends than myself.

That said, I agree with you on the trinity in MMO's, and had several of my friends (who usually follow me between games) avoid GW2 because of that lack of real role system. Most notably the lack of healers and the dynamic that comes from that, in terms of more difficult content.

I ofcourse enjoy the PvE story telling of this game. I also really miss the greater difficulty from earlier days.

Knowing the genre of late though (as we all do) its a good bet a 5 year old will be able to cope with anything they release. Not their fault ofcourse, people these days are too apathetic and love instant gratification above all else. Catering to the lowest denominator, because they are the most numerous, is just the way it goes.

Kragorn · February 2015

marcmyb14_ESO wrote: »

Also, let us not forget that the most popular MMO on the market to this day, WoW, is known as a (if not THE) raiding MMO. It would be silly to assume raiding is irrelevant.

WOW's business model is still subscription based, that model is focused on retention however that isn't the reason there's a healthy raiding 'scene' in 2015.

I deliberately didn't mention WOW but since you raised it, let's look at that.

In the beginning WOW offered raiding content like no other. Moreover, while many new MMO players took up the game due to the non-group-or-die nature of much of it, back in 2004 most MMO players were those brought up in the group-or-die 1990s games like EQ and so naturally there was a decent percentage inclined to play it.

However, the fact is Blizzard admitted that even at its hight, in 'vanilla' less than 15% of player had even been IN BWL, while less than 5% ever cleared it when it was 'current' content.

So far from 'THE' raiding game the fact is the vast majority of players didn't raid back then. Over the last two or three years the percentage of WOW players who 'raid' has steadily increased.

Why?

LFR! (Looking For Raid).

Blizzard recognised that it wasn't a good long-term proposition to continue to develop content like Ulduar and Icecrown CItadel (and equivalent content in Cataclysm) that was only playgrounds of the small elite.

So for Pandaria they implemented 'scaled' raids where the same content was available in several degrees of difficulty. The harder variants had more boss mechanics, sometimes an extra boss, and gear drops were correspondingly improved.

This has been a huge success.

Now, the elite raiding guilds get 'their' version (currently labeled 'Mythic' difficulty I think), the 'second division' of raiding guilds get the 'normal' variant and the LFR version is there entirely to allow non-raiders (and let's be honest those of lesser skill, like me) to experience most of the raiding content without the phat lewt rewards the elite get.

So now I believe the figures are around 40% of players do enter raid content and have fun doing it and while there's inevitably a small clique of elitist who sneer and jeer at the 'noobs' and 'lolcasuals' most hard-core raiders carry on as they have always done with content commensurate with their skills and can safely ignore the fun the LFRer's are having.

LFR allows me to see current content even though I pretty much suck in comparison to real raiders (I hjave no illuusions about my abilities in games), but my ability to do doesn't affect the 'real' raiders at all: Hell will freeze over before I see SO in this game because 'raiders' want 'their' content exclusively to themselves, Blizzard took them on and faced them down (there was a LOT of screaming from the elitists when LFR was first introduced), ZOS won't, I have no doubt.

So yes, these days WOW may very well be 'the' raiding MMO but ESO is back in 2006 when it comes to the importance of raiders; Blizzard recognised the raiders doing AQ/Karazhan/Ulduar/ZA weren't the 'future' by themselves.

Ysne58 · February 2015

I just hope that the DLCs really are enjoyable, regardless of how they handle the scaling. I'm not sure I'll be buying anything much in the crown shop, so far there isn't much I want there.

RainfeatherUK · February 2015

Ysne58 wrote: »

I just hope that the DLCs really are enjoyable, regardless of how they handle the scaling. I'm not sure I'll be buying anything much in the crown shop, so far there isn't much I want there.

Well that viewpoint, is the reason behind alot of the concern for it.

If we assume that ZoS intend the Cash Shop to generate decent revenue (we after all have no idea how many people will utilize ESO+ after box price) then we are left with the 'how'.

Currently many people have stated that; short of the odd mount, infrequently released zone DLC (development time) that there isnt going to be an awful lot they would want to buy on a regular basis.

So aside from fashion; something which I can only imagine wont quite have the same 'must have it all' status of something like say gw2 (very specific styles and a lack of them initially will mean people probably will only want certain items) leaves us with the question: How much money is the cash shop really going to make once sales slow down and its devoid of pay2win?

The pots for example - seem almost useless if you have any intention of playing the game fully and making the best (being competitive, which im sure alot of people want to be)

So then we have the appeal to the lazy crowd: Who will buy the pots (rushing to endgame fast as possible) and exp boosters.

Problem being when they hit end game, having rushed most of it pointlessly (and seeing as alot of ESO's content is story telling) we'll have a massive retention/cash issue.

Unless they start catering more to pay2win.

Thats in no way 'fact', so take it as a potential version/opinion. With ZoS transparency though, could be an iffy future going forward under B2P as far as content goes.

Audigy · February 2015

marcmyb14_ESO wrote: »

ZOS, please shed some light on this. Will the game also try to cater to endgame players as well as lower level players, or are endgame players out of luck?

I think that the only people who got content in the past year were those hardcore´s

Just look how many dungeons and trials came out and compare this to content for pvp players, crafters or roleplayers.

I am quite sure that ZO will keep focusing on raids and dungeon grinds, so you don't need to worry. Its the pvp players and roleplayers who should worry

Ysne58 · February 2015

PvE who aren't at endgame also fit into this category. Not just pvp and role players.

marcmyb14_ESO · February 2015

Audigy wrote: »

marcmyb14_ESO wrote: »

ZOS, please shed some light on this. Will the game also try to cater to endgame players as well as lower level players, or are endgame players out of luck?

I think that the only people who got content in the past year were those hardcore´s Just look how many dungeons and trials came out and compare this to content for pvp players, crafters or roleplayers.

I am quite sure that ZO will keep focusing on raids and dungeon grinds, so you don't need to worry. Its the pvp players and roleplayers who should worry

I agree PvP needs some love too, I'm just worried they might take one extreme to another. Go from only releasing content for "hardcore" to only releasing content for "casuals" would be a mistake in the opposite direction.

RainfeatherUK · February 2015

marcmyb14_ESO wrote: »

I agree PvP needs some love too, I'm just worried they might take one extreme to another. Go from only releasing content for "hardcore" to only releasing content for "casuals" would be a mistake in the opposite direction.

As someone stated however, thats entirely the problem with B2P. Its slower content release (which has already been confirmed by the devs here) means that its not designed to retain but mainly to churn.

The content becomes casual because of the model. Hence the scaling systems and other features.

Danikat · February 2015

marcmyb14_ESO wrote: »

RainfeatherUK wrote: »

DLC will allow people to go there straight away as you've said. So I dont expect it to be tough for anyone, or they wouldnt be accounting for the difference in skill/experience between a higher level 'visitor' and a lower level one who is relatively new to the game

Elloa regularly says; that as with the revamped intro sequence at the start of the game, the focus on DLC is on improving the cinematography - and potentially the story telling quality - of ESO. I agree with her observation on this focus for the better part.

Scaling systems are notoriusly terrible and there isnt any money in making this game anything but casual from now on, despite a smaller demographic like us wishing for it.

That's not very hopeful.

LOTRO made the mistake of assuming that most people weren't raiders, that game isn't doing very well atm. If ZOS goes down this route and doesn't do anything to cater to people at endgame, the game will surely die.

You could equally say Wildstar made the mistake of assuming most people (or at least a significant minority) ARE raiders and isn't doing very well because of it.

The entire game was built to appeal to those who want hardcore raid style content as the main focus, apparently under the impression that there was a whole largely untapped market out there getting frustrated with their current game(s) and just waiting for a game that was targeted at them.

Of course that's not the only issue it's had, but they apparently realised the hard way, and probably too late, that they were actually targeting a tiny minority of what's already actually a minority of gamers (MMO players) and it doesn't make a sustainable population.

NewBlacksmurf · February 2015

marcmyb14_ESO wrote: »

Upon hearing about the game going B2P, I was not concerned that there were going to be any issues nor that the game was going to go downhill in any way (except for perhaps seeing a longer delay in getting updates). However, this somewhat changed when I read that players of all levels will be scaled (or "battle-leveled") to the new DLC content. Here is why this concerns me: If for example a level 1 player, with no skills, stat points, gear, etc. can go into a new DLC zone and will be able to do the content, what will happen if a VR14 with gold gear, max health/stamina/magicka/armor/resist, 300 skill points, champion points, food, pots, etc. go there? Is it safe to assume that that character will find the content to be fairly easy and get bored due to lack of a challenge? Coming from VR zones and Craglorn, trials, veteran dungeons, max leveled players don't want a walk in the park. We want to continuously be challenged, and we want to be rewarded for it as well. If the new DLC content will be available to all levels, what kind of rewards will we be getting at max level? The same gear set that a level 1 can get, just scaled to VR14? If so, what incentive will we have to keep leveling other than to get champion points, skill points, etc. Why will players want to keep playing beyond a certain point? I believe an MMO _needs_ an endgame area that players can look forward to and that will really challenge them and reward them for their hard work. If you don't provide this, players won't be inclined to keep playing. Just my 2 cents.

ZOS, please shed some light on this. Will the game also try to cater to endgame players as well as lower level players, or are endgame players out of luck?

Think of Morrowind or Oblivion....it's the same concept.
Do not think of Skyrim or another MMORPG.

Also realize that the announced DLC isn't really end game content so it's just more stuff, new zones, more questing.

RainfeatherUK · February 2015

I tried wildstar and actually liked the premise of harder style group content.

Unfortunately all of the other systems, from housing and general questing, were just too basic or poorly addressed. There are many games I played in the past that have content far more challenging than anything in ESO and by far I prefer it. But those are old old games that have dated combat and the cons outweigh the pros.

Like some of them; Wildstar was too specific, with nothing around the edges. Thats why I didnt like it anyway.

marcmyb14_ESO · February 2015

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

marcmyb14_ESO wrote: »

Upon hearing about the game going B2P, I was not concerned that there were going to be any issues nor that the game was going to go downhill in any way (except for perhaps seeing a longer delay in getting updates). However, this somewhat changed when I read that players of all levels will be scaled (or "battle-leveled") to the new DLC content. Here is why this concerns me: If for example a level 1 player, with no skills, stat points, gear, etc. can go into a new DLC zone and will be able to do the content, what will happen if a VR14 with gold gear, max health/stamina/magicka/armor/resist, 300 skill points, champion points, food, pots, etc. go there? Is it safe to assume that that character will find the content to be fairly easy and get bored due to lack of a challenge? Coming from VR zones and Craglorn, trials, veteran dungeons, max leveled players don't want a walk in the park. We want to continuously be challenged, and we want to be rewarded for it as well. If the new DLC content will be available to all levels, what kind of rewards will we be getting at max level? The same gear set that a level 1 can get, just scaled to VR14? If so, what incentive will we have to keep leveling other than to get champion points, skill points, etc. Why will players want to keep playing beyond a certain point? I believe an MMO _needs_ an endgame area that players can look forward to and that will really challenge them and reward them for their hard work. If you don't provide this, players won't be inclined to keep playing. Just my 2 cents.

ZOS, please shed some light on this. Will the game also try to cater to endgame players as well as lower level players, or are endgame players out of luck?

Think of Morrowind or Oblivion....it's the same concept.
Do not think of Skyrim or another MMORPG.

Also realize that the announced DLC isn't really end game content so it's just more stuff, new zones, more questing.

Not sure I understand what you mean. In Skyrim, all mobs were scaled to you no matter what level you were, so the game could potentially always be challenging, but once you got all the decent gear and skills, etc it became easier of course. This would be different however, in order for a level 1 to be able to do VR14 content for example, that content would have to be made pretty easy, and there's no difficulty setting.

BigM · February 2015

Aeeeek wrote: »

LOTRO's biggest mistake was changing to be more like WOW. Becoming a shadow of the leader is still becoming a shadow.
EVE Online couldn't be more different and is still growing.
I hope ESO holds true to its own muse, The total pool of players is bigger than its ever been.

So sick of hearing EVE is this EVE is that, the game only has around 320k players (at least from MMORPG.com). The game isn't as great as people make it out to be only a small niche of players like it. Yet these same players will say W0W sucks, yet WoW numbers are still massive. LOTRO main mistake was not being like WoW which it isn't, last I checked even if you sub Turbine still tries to steer you to have to buy something from the store. If we sub to a game then the whole game should be open to us.

Hate to say it EVE is like the Brady Bunch, all they do is Marcia Marcia Marcia.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2015

EVE actually is a great game. I don't play it myself for a number of reasons, but I actually think it has great potential. The core reason why I don't play EVE is the combat system itself is not my style. I do however love the Sci Fi setting, and the sandbox universe it exists in. I really wish gear were viewed with a more sandbox type of mentality in this game. Star Wars Galaxies did a great job of this. I personally don't like gear to be the end all be all of a game. I'd much rather gear remained rather steady for the most part, but have the skills and champion system take up the slack of achievement. That's more the system I'm interested in. I realize my views aren't particularly popular in the MMORPG world, but I just think it silly that a Level 1 character can't pick up a 'Level 50 sword'. This is asinine. What is so magical about that better quality sword that you can't pick it up? Furthermore, how does a Level 50 sword do 50 times the damage of a Level 1 Sword? Both of these issues are a bit ludicrous, but common tropes to RPG games in general. I think that's one thing I really appreciated in SWG. The game had quality of materials, and how you refined those materials and what equipment you used them on determined the ultimate outcome of the gear you were using. Gear was also a bit more disposable in nature, because it was just another tool in your toolkit. I like a system like this because it makes sense.

It might very well be that WOW is very popular, but I don't think its Popular for quite the reasons that some folks suggest. WOW was lucky in its timing and their developers will even admit to that. WOW also has low system requirements which means that a broad base of players from around the world can play at little cost and demand on their machine. The more high end a MMO is, the more demand it is on the machine, and the greater entry cost for people to play. WOW maintains its popularity in large part because of this reason, and they continue to reinvest and develop. I'm not knocking WOW but I think its important to recognize qualitatively what is going on here. EVE is a great game, WoW is a great game, and they are just different. It is particularly ridiculous to say that if a person likes WoW they should hate EVE or vice versa. Most video game players have diverse tastes, and I don't see why MMO's should be any different. I would personally love to see ESO open up a sandbox element of the game where players/guilds could own mines/lumbermills/farms/towns much like SWG had. I know its possibly unlikely, but who knows it could happen right? Even if it were simply a way for us to carve out our own little territory in oblivion I'd love it. I recognize this is probably not going to happen, but again I think it would be awesome. I've always felt a Themepark & Sandbox game is the way to go for MMORPG's, but for some reason no one does it.