Tankqull wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

I've tried the PTS, I've also made a build which you can find at Tamriel Foundry.

that build drops to 6-7,5k DPs over fights lasting longer than the duration of your atronarch...

compare that to DK builds doing 15-16k+ in craft gear and you realize the problem...

bloody filtrer the *** are 4 letters for the male ***

TehMagnus wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

We have a stamina templar because he can pull more DPS than most random DKs we can find in the game, but we wouldn't take sorcs to do speed runs (and only reason we take @Alcast & his Templar is because he doesn't have a VR14 DK geared & ready to roll - And he pulls really nice DPS with his templar, we wouldn't take any other templar DPS except him ^^- ).
Edit: oh and in SO, he's healing.

Yeah a number of my old guild friends joined you (Mistyblood amongst them) who I'd been running the top trial group with and were just getting to boss 8 on in vet DSA (some time ago). That all fell through as did the guild for that matter, as Hodor took up more and more of their time. I applied too, hoping to follow them, to be turned down as all Sorcs applying at that time appeared to be, and despite my ex-guildies recommending me.

It certainly looks like Hodor hasn't recruited Sors for some time for Trials from what I can see.

You're THE top trial performing guild in EP, and naturally you want the best times, so isn't it axiomatic that your rejection of the class points to a problem you see with the class?

Of course it is!

Pppontus would have the rest of use beleive that you've have had it wrong all this time, and you are somehow getting the best times and tackling the hardest content despite 'handicapping'yourself for not taking Sorcs...

... and that the rest of us somehow can't get our *** together with our Sorcs whilst simultaneously getting better performance out of our other characters due to some optimsing 'blind spot' unique to our playing of this class alone.

I don't buy it.

Tell me I'm wrong?

@byrom101b16_ESO indeed, sorcs are just not good enough as a class and with awseome healers such as misty, we don't even need negate anymore, anywhere.

You might be an awesome player, but as long as we have an awesome Sorc and an equally awesome DK online, we will want to take the DK because we know he will pull more DPS, kill things faster and allow us to get better time. This is the reason we haven't recruited any sorc for months now regardless of their personal skill, we just would never take them in our raids which wouldn't be nice for the player.

That being said, I didn't read the OP or anything, but if this thread is to complain about sorcs, from what I hear from Hodor sorcs, class is pretty viable atm in PTS when it comes to DPS.

TehMagnus wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Next patch my Templar > DKs hahahahahahahah (doomsday is coming)

Never! You... will.... keep .....healing us!!!!!!

(or I'll reroll templar)

pppontus wrote: »

I get that people are different and have different ambitions, but I don't get seeing all these guilds that aren't even at our "decent" level excluding people for class reasons

pppontus wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

We have a stamina templar because he can pull more DPS than most random DKs we can find in the game, but we wouldn't take sorcs to do speed runs (and only reason we take @Alcast & his Templar is because he doesn't have a VR14 DK geared & ready to roll - And he pulls really nice DPS with his templar, we wouldn't take any other templar DPS except him ^^- ).

Meh, I'll attribute that to ignorance towards Sorcerers with Mephala and Infallible Aether. Our best DPS pulled 1,4K on the entire Mantikora fight upstairs with that combo, I'm not that good but can at least do 1,4K on easier fights like the Serpent..

Sure sorc can consistently get better DPS than DK in Manticora, I mean even for me it's hard to get 1,4K on manti, I'll usually be at around -1300 and sometimes 1400-1500 if everything went perfectly. But on the other hand, DK will still pull more DPS in trashpacks and in all the other bosses where he can get up close so in the end, I'd still pick an awesome DK over an awesome Sorc ^^. That being said, I'd prefer an awesome sorc over a random DK just like I prefer an awesome templar over a random DK .

Edit: And to get into your lil debate, it's the same thing as people that refuse others because of their gear. A guy who plays sorc or templar DPS like a boss will pull more DPS than the average players, that being said, those people are extremely rare to come by, and 95% of the times, the sorc or templar stamina DPS that will join your group will suck & be clueless which is why people tend to refuse them straight forward. Only reason I trust Alcast's templar stamina dps is because I already know he's an awesome player and that can only happen with people you know and play with regularly.

Fair enough, but what I'm mainly trying to make as my point is that 98% of groups aren't Hodor. ^^

In the end, if you have a half decent group of half decent players.. which classes they are generally doesn't matter much. They'll all do 800 DPS or so anyway!

Groups like that who are refusing templars or sorcerers as dps, is something I can only attribute to what the community thinks is bad rather than reality. Any sorc or templar can pull 800 with little effort and decent gear.

I agrees, for people who just want to complete content, any group will do it, this is what you see most casual guilds doing, they aren't too picky about who they take.

If you want to make a good time or even have an easy time farming a trial, you tend to want to have the best and you tend to copy what you see the best players doing which is why people get into the mentality of refusing templars & sorcs DPSers because they see none in the leaderboard (although IMO this prolly really only applies to competitive guilds that are trying to get things going for them and getting groups together to earn top positions. Most random PUG groups I join during nights when I'm bored or want to test DPS on bosses always have sorcs amongst them).

Then again, if you where serious about being competitive, at least until 1.6, best thing you could do was reroll DK...

Well, yeah. I guess we view this a little differently since my guild is no hardcore raiding guild, just an open PVE guild that happen to have a good core group of players. In the end, I just think most groups that just want to be "up there" rather than "the best" are focusing too much on classes and builds rather than players and skill. We've managed to snag some decent places on the leaderboards without telling anyone to reroll DK. #7 HR with 4 DK dps, #8 AA with 5, that's good enough for me. ^^

I personally don't like playing the DK, too much fire fire for me, and if I was asked to bring my DK or sit out .. I'd sit out. That's not really my cup of tea. My boss doesn't let me put down my DPS numbers in the salary review anyway

I get that people are different and have different ambitions, but I don't get seeing all these guilds that aren't even at our "decent" level excluding people for class reasons. But I guess that means more recruits for us

TehMagnus wrote: »

Ideally for me and in current meta, a raid group for AA & HRC will have 10 DKs, 1 magicka NB, 1 templar healer and for SO 2 templar healers, 8 DKs and 2 magicka NBs. So as few Nbs/templars/sorcs as possible.

Tankqull wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

We have a stamina templar because he can pull more DPS than most random DKs we can find in the game, but we wouldn't take sorcs to do speed runs (and only reason we take @Alcast & his Templar is he doesn't have a VR14 DK geared & ready to roll - And he pulls really nice DPS with his templar, we wouldn't take any other templar DPS except him ^^- ).

Meh, I'll attribute that to ignorance towards Sorcerers with Mephala and Infallible Aether. Our best DPS pulled 1,4K on the entire Mantikora fight upstairs with that combo, I'm not that good but can at least do 1,4K on easier fights like the Serpent..

Sure sorc can consistently get better DPS than DK in Manticora, I mean even for me it's hard to get 1,4K on manti, I'll usually be at around -1300 and sometimes 1400-1500 if everything went perfectly. But on the other hand, DK will still pull more DPS in trashpacks and in all the other bosses where he can get up close so in the end, I'd still pick an awesome DK over an awesome Sorc ^^. That being said, I'd prefer an awesome sorc over a random DK just like I prefer an awesome templar over a random DK .

Edit: And to get into your lil debate, it's the same thing as people that refuse others because of their gear. A guy who plays sorc or templar DPS like a boss will pull more DPS than the average players, that being said, those people are extremely rare to come by, and 95% of the times, the sorc or templar stamina DPS that will join your group will suck & be clueless which is why people tend to refuse them straight forward. Only reason I trust Alcast's templar stamina dps is because I already know he's an awesome player and that can only happen with people you know and play with regularly.

Fair enough, but what I'm mainly trying to make as my point is that 98% of groups aren't Hodor. ^^

In the end, if you have a half decent group of half decent players.. which classes they are generally doesn't matter much. They'll all do 800 DPS or so anyway!

Groups like that who are refusing templars or sorcerers as dps, is something I can only attribute to what the community thinks is bad rather than reality. Any sorc or templar can pull 800 with little effort and decent gear.

I agrees, for people who just want to complete content, any group will do it, this is what you see most casual guilds doing, they aren't too picky about who they take.

If you want to make a good time or even have an easy time farming a trial, you tend to want to have the best and you tend to copy what you see the best players doing which is why people get into the mentality of refusing templars & sorcs DPSers because they see none in the leaderboard (although IMO this prolly really only applies to competitive guilds that are trying to get things going for them and getting groups together to earn top positions. Most random PUG groups I join during nights when I'm bored or want to test DPS on bosses always have sorcs amongst them).

Then again, if you where serious about being competitive, at least until 1.6, best thing you could do was reroll DK...

Well, yeah. I guess we view this a little differently since my guild is no hardcore raiding guild, just an open PVE guild that happen to have a good core group of players. In the end, I just think most groups that just want to be "up there" rather than "the best" are focusing too much on classes and builds rather than players and skill. We've managed to snag some decent places on the leaderboards without telling anyone to reroll DK. #7 HR with 4 DK dps, #8 AA with 5, that's good enough for me. ^^

I personally don't like playing the DK, too much fire fire for me, and if I was asked to bring my DK or sit out .. I'd sit out. That's not really my cup of tea. My boss doesn't let me put down my DPS numbers in the salary review anyway

I get that people are different and have different ambitions, but I don't get seeing all these guilds that aren't even at our "decent" level excluding people for class reasons. But I guess that means more recruits for us

that extreamly easy they want to finish the vet dungeon or the trial at all.
and as it is much easier for a bad player to match the minimum required DPS to solve a dungeon on a DK than than on a sorc, so instead of dying 12quadruple times at the gargoyle because you had an incompetent sorc, they are preferring the incompetent DK which still enables you to be successfull.
thats the reason casuals avoid classes labled as horrific DPS.

A1exeR wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

asteldian wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

We have a stamina templar because he can pull more DPS than most random DKs we can find in the game, but we wouldn't take sorcs to do speed runs (and only reason we take @Alcast & his Templar is he doesn't have a VR14 DK geared & ready to roll - And he pulls really nice DPS with his templar, we wouldn't take any other templar DPS except him ^^- ).

Meh, I'll attribute that to ignorance towards Sorcerers with Mephala and Infallible Aether. Our best DPS pulled 1,4K on the entire Mantikora fight upstairs with that combo, I'm not that good but can at least do 1,4K on easier fights like the Serpent..

Sure sorc can consistently get better DPS than DK in Manticora, I mean even for me it's hard to get 1,4K on manti, I'll usually be at around -1300 and sometimes 1400-1500 if everything went perfectly. But on the other hand, DK will still pull more DPS in trashpacks and in all the other bosses where he can get up close so in the end, I'd still pick an awesome DK over an awesome Sorc ^^. That being said, I'd prefer an awesome sorc over a random DK just like I prefer an awesome templar over a random DK .

Edit: And to get into your lil debate, it's the same thing as people that refuse others because of their gear. A guy who plays sorc or templar DPS like a boss will pull more DPS than the average players, that being said, those people are extremely rare to come by, and 95% of the times, the sorc or templar stamina DPS that will join your group will suck & be clueless which is why people tend to refuse them straight forward. Only reason I trust Alcast's templar stamina dps is because I already know he's an awesome player and that can only happen with people you know and play with regularly.

Fair enough, but what I'm mainly trying to make as my point is that 98% of groups aren't Hodor. ^^

In the end, if you have a half decent group of half decent players.. which classes they are generally doesn't matter much. They'll all do 800 DPS or so anyway!

Groups like that who are refusing templars or sorcerers as dps, is something I can only attribute to what the community thinks is bad rather than reality. Any sorc or templar can pull 800 with little effort and decent gear.

I agrees, for people who just want to complete content, any group will do it, this is what you see most casual guilds doing, they aren't too picky about who they take.

If you want to make a good time or even have an easy time farming a trial, you tend to want to have the best and you tend to copy what you see the best players doing which is why people get into the mentality of refusing templars & sorcs DPSers because they see none in the leaderboard (although IMO this prolly really only applies to competitive guilds that are trying to get things going for them and getting groups together to earn top positions. Most random PUG groups I join during nights when I'm bored or want to test DPS on bosses always have sorcs amongst them).

Then again, if you where serious about being competitive, at least until 1.6, best thing you could do was reroll DK...

Well, yeah. I guess we view this a little differently since my guild is no hardcore raiding guild, just an open PVE guild that happen to have a good core group of players. In the end, I just think most groups that just want to be "up there" rather than "the best" are focusing too much on classes and builds rather than players and skill. We've managed to snag some decent places on the leaderboards without telling anyone to reroll DK. #7 HR with 4 DK dps, #8 AA with 5, that's good enough for me. ^^

I personally don't like playing the DK, too much fire fire for me, and if I was asked to bring my DK or sit out .. I'd sit out. That's not really my cup of tea. My boss doesn't let me put down my DPS numbers in the salary review anyway

I get that people are different and have different ambitions, but I don't get seeing all these guilds that aren't even at our "decent" level excluding people for class reasons. But I guess that means more recruits for us

that extreamly easy they want to finish the vet dungeon or the trial at all.
and as it is much easier for a bad player to match the minimum required DPS to solve a dungeon on a DK than than on a sorc, so instead of dying 12quadruple times at the gargoyle because you had an incompetent sorc, they are preferring the incompetent DK which still enables you to be successfull.
thats the reason casuals avoid classes labled as horrific DPS.

To be fair, if a group is struggling to beat the gargoyle, the fact one member is an incompetant sorc is a small part of the equation because the fight does not even need a full group. On the brightside in 1.6 the gargoyle is even easily 2 man'd.
While it is true a bad sorc is worse than a bad DK, as with previous mmo games, you tend to find bad players flock to the better class and remain bad because they can get away with it. Whereas those who pick 'weaker' classes tend to get better as they have little choice if they want to do the content. As a result you tend to be far more likely to get a half decent sorc than a bad one, which in turn means they will likely perform better than the bad DK.

This is an important point actually.

No matter how good a magicka Sorc players gets, it is the TIMED challenge of Trials that sees them excluded.

They may be more skilled, better at following instructions and picking up mechanics, rarely die due to doing the wrong thing or standing in the wrong place. They might be a great team player, hit the right buttons at the right time and be fun in TS.

But none of that matters because the dps numbers don't stack up hard enough to push the trial timer down to where the competitive guild wants it.

So adios Sorcerer - you're negate is now of little use to us, and our Temp healers invaliidate the need to take you for that, so regretfully...

If you were to take the timed element out of Raid content and fix the classes so they are closer to each other in terms of utility and survivability, the ridiculous imbalance seen in class representation in Trials woould be a thing of history.

Everyone would win...

Besides - isn't it just damn lazy to make a game where how fast you do the content, rather than how chalenging it is in other respects is of primary importance?

Timed challenges have their place of course, and can be enjoyable - but as the only game in town if you want the very best gear?

Shouldn't we be past the MMO era of 'to increase difficulty add health and damage for the boss, job done'?

Really...

Zenimax is taking the game firmly out of the hands of the casual majority and delivering it lock, stock and barrel to the hardcore gamers.

Any game where the majority, or even a significant minority) are excluded from content or guilds due to the design of the game is a bad game, and as Blizzard seem to know far better, doomed to financial failure.

If you can't for some reason balance your classes (or even come close to it...), then content & reward should be created that caters for all. Not in a way which fences off some of it permanently out of reach of the majority.

The hardcore guilds get the glory and the rewards sooner. The more casual get it later.

Creating a paradigm where some will never get it, and in a way which has players DENYING EACH OTHER access to content based on class choice in a game feted as 'play as you want to play' is poisonous and pointlessly devisive.

Less than hardcore players expect to behind the curve. That goes with the territory... but part of the ESO curve is currently unnatainable unless you jump to the FOTY class(es).

"Play as you need to play" more like...

There is so much wrong in all of this.

First of all, the Hardcore community doesn't care what class is the strongest one, it just plays it.

2: You will always have a class dealing more damage than the others, it's just the way it is and as long as damage is what matters most, best groups will get as many players dealing the most damage as possible.

3: As ppontus noted, you can complete any content with sorcs nbs & templars, only hardcore guilds refuse those players as well as hardcore wanabees (which are actually the people who give hardcore players the "Elitits ****" reputation).

4: If you want to play hardcore you need to be ready to reroll immediately to the next FOTM class instead of sticking to yours & asking for buffs.

Exactly this.

Seriously there are very few guilds in this game that are hardcore enough to actually have to care about class optimization, in EU I can only think of Hodor and that banana guild I don't even know the name of but that had the top times at some point. Below that anyone can compete with pretty much any class setup to be honest, it's not like all our DKs do 1,6K+ dps either, not at all.

The biggest problem I see is the so called "hardcore wannabees" that look at the top of the leaderboard and then decide to exclude Sorcerers/NBs/Templars/whatevers because they think they are automatically worthless.

These guilds/groups more than often end up not even being able to complete Sanctum because they are actually gimping themselves by narrowing the amount of people to pick from and end up with a bunch of unskilled DKs (because they are DKs) instead of really good Sorcs.

In essence, 99% of Sorc exclusion = idiocy. 1% = legit, because Sorcs do less DPS. If you want to be in that 1% though, as @TehMagnus just said.. you pretty much need to be ready to reroll to any class that is or becomes the FOTM, at any time. Because if you're truly hardcore, and you don't reroll, you will be beaten by another group that does.

If you're having trouble finding guilds that accept you, making one yourself is actually a good idea, because chances are there are many others that have the same problem then and you can gather up all the good Sorcs and whatever classes were excluded. And because the hardcore community is tiny in this game, you should have no problem getting in the top 10 at least with competent players of any class.

Very strange that remember only Hodor.
May be Hodor have first kill SO normal EU? No, this is my guild - IDDQD and I was in this group.
May be Hodor have world first kill SO Hard mod? No, this is Ætherius Eight - ours countryman's.

I think that sorc has a lot of problems, but our two groups (AE and IDDQD) had sorcs (4 sorcs in IDDQD group). This did not prevent us to be the first.