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Why BoP is a terrible idea.
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »On 1 of my V14s it took 67 gargoyle boss kills to get 1 Bloodspawn helm (with $h**y traits i might add) while 34 helms dropped for OTHER members of my parties during those runs.
(Yes, i literally have notepad and keep track of drops)
Instead, why not make BOP loot (set items in particular) tradable with any member of your party at the time it dropped for a limited time.
This way, the healer you paid 1000 gold to come heal farming runs who gets his 14th helm can simply trade you the helm that will invariably drop for him 2 runs in, then you can all leave and go back to picking flowers in Coldharbour sooner.
^ This.
The most simple, fair and sensical solution is to make all items BoE. It solves all problems.
It creates just as many as it solves. So no, BoE for everything isn't a magic bullet. There are problems, but I don't personally think that removing BoP is going to solve them creatively.
False. It doesn't create any problems, the only "problem" it creates is it takes away envy factor from weak minded individuals.alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »i must disagree if you spend the time farming or doing dungeons you want to stand out from the crowd. if bop could be sold if would make your achievement in getting rare gear pointless, i'am affaird to say this is just people who dont want to do the content or run the dungeons being a bit of a sour puss, i want this and that but i don't want to do things to get and if i don't i will throw my rattle out of my pram
Again, false assumption. I want to do more dungeons but as it is I see no point. I have all the helmets I will ever need and the few times I have tried to help others, they either get no helmets while I get more or they get the wrong ones blah blah blah.
You're spot on with the description of how the RNG system works, having no control over the loot that drops. This is exactly why Need/Greed system should be implemented, so you can roll "Greed" if you already have an Undaunted helm, and "Need" if you don't. Really simple.
[Moderator Note: edited quote to match moderated version]Edited by ZOS_MichelleA on February 22, 2015 8:28PM1 -
wraith808✭✭✭✭kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »False. It doesn't create any problems, the only "problem" it creates is it takes away envy factor from weak minded individuals.
False in your mind, which is startlingly close-minded to the fact that there are very real problems.
The same issue that people have with pay to win becomes a very real problem without BoP, i.e. someone with the resources can buy their way to BiS gear. By the same token, because there is BiS gear that is purchasable, as its price stabilizes, it destabilizes the other gear, driving it's price down. Currently, there is no god amount set on said gear, so it doesn't affect the market. There are others, also, but these examples are enough to prove that a problem does exist.
This isn't to say that there aren't other ways around this, however, denying that the problem exists makes any suggestions suspect and not well rounded. The first step in resolving such a problem is to acknowledge the reasons that it exists, and not to denigrate the fact that it is there.
Thus, a simple flipping to BoE doesn't solve the problems, and they should be addressed as a part of any solution.Quasim ibn-Muhammad - VR 12 Redguard Dragon Knight
Taladriel Vanima - VR 5 Altmer Nightblade
Ambalyo iyo Bogaadin - VR 1 Redguard Sorceror1 -
kelly.medleyb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »False. It doesn't create any problems, the only "problem" it creates is it takes away envy factor from weak minded individuals.
False in your mind, which is startlingly close-minded to the fact that there are very real problems.
The same issue that people have with pay to win becomes a very real problem without BoP, i.e. someone with the resources can buy their way to BiS gear. By the same token, because there is BiS gear that is purchasable, as its price stabilizes, it destabilizes the other gear, driving it's price down. Currently, there is no god amount set on said gear, so it doesn't affect the market. There are others, also, but these examples are enough to prove that a problem does exist.
This isn't to say that there aren't other ways around this, however, denying that the problem exists makes any suggestions suspect and not well rounded. The first step in resolving such a problem is to acknowledge the reasons that it exists, and not to denigrate the fact that it is there.
Thus, a simple flipping to BoE doesn't solve the problems, and they should be addressed as a part of any solution.
Actually I'm quite critical minded. I go for the simplest solution that makes the most sense. All of these complex "solutions" are mud in the water for the simple solution which is: Make the game PLAYER driven not Dev controlled.
The only things Devs should be muddling in is drop rates. That is it. Everything else should be BoE. End of story.
Theme parks have hand rails, sandboxes have sand.1 -
wraith808✭✭✭✭kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »False. It doesn't create any problems, the only "problem" it creates is it takes away envy factor from weak minded individuals.
False in your mind, which is startlingly close-minded to the fact that there are very real problems.
The same issue that people have with pay to win becomes a very real problem without BoP, i.e. someone with the resources can buy their way to BiS gear. By the same token, because there is BiS gear that is purchasable, as its price stabilizes, it destabilizes the other gear, driving it's price down. Currently, there is no god amount set on said gear, so it doesn't affect the market. There are others, also, but these examples are enough to prove that a problem does exist.
This isn't to say that there aren't other ways around this, however, denying that the problem exists makes any suggestions suspect and not well rounded. The first step in resolving such a problem is to acknowledge the reasons that it exists, and not to denigrate the fact that it is there.
Thus, a simple flipping to BoE doesn't solve the problems, and they should be addressed as a part of any solution.
Actually I'm quite critical minded. I go for the simplest solution that makes the most sense. All of these complex "solutions" are mud in the water for the simple solution which is: Make the game PLAYER driven not Dev controlled.
The only things Devs should be muddling in is drop rates. That is it. Everything else should be BoE. End of story.
Theme parks have hand rails, sandboxes have sand.
Well, we've seem to come to the part in this conversation where we should agree to disagree, especially since you refuse to even acknowledge other points of view and address the problems brought up by them. The Devs will do whatever they feel is best for the future of the game, so this conversation has little bearing on what will be done.
Thanks for the conversation!Quasim ibn-Muhammad - VR 12 Redguard Dragon Knight
Taladriel Vanima - VR 5 Altmer Nightblade
Ambalyo iyo Bogaadin - VR 1 Redguard Sorceror1 -
kelly.medleyb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭I've acknowledged what boils down to "I don't want others to have stuff because I want to feel special" and "BoE ruins games" with no logic behind either argument I think its fair to say that BoP should be done away with.0
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wraith808✭✭✭✭kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »I've acknowledged what boils down to "I don't want others to have stuff because I want to feel special" and "BoE ruins games" with no logic behind either argument I think its fair to say that BoP should be done away with.
So you didn't read my post at all. As the arguments there are not either of those? I see...
And keep in mind, I haven't any BiS gear.Quasim ibn-Muhammad - VR 12 Redguard Dragon Knight
Taladriel Vanima - VR 5 Altmer Nightblade
Ambalyo iyo Bogaadin - VR 1 Redguard Sorceror1 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭BoE + a item decay system (where an item is actually destroyed after 6-12 months of regular usage) thats the way it should be.spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"1 -
Joejudas✭✭✭✭✭i have 62 gold key runs and 1 shoulder drop....you keep telling yourself the rng in this game is awesome. cause it isnt2
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kelly.medleyb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭i have 62 gold key runs and 1 shoulder drop....you keep telling yourself the rng in this game is awesome. cause it isnt
Agreed, that's why it should go BoE so you could use the gold you farmed from those Gold keys to buy shoulders from someone else who has duplicates or doesn't need them.
I tried to help 2 times to help 2 guys out to get their helmets, every boss kill 3 of our group got helmets... never the guy who needed it. I got one for every one of my toons in various enchantments and styles and they never got theirs, eventually people started leaving and they still don't have them.
BoP is a terrible idea do away with it.0 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »
everything needs to decay white within a rather short amount of times and legends at the upper end but all have to erode.
the problem with economy in games since wow is that items are not needed to be replaced but by the next gear evolution. and that is the reason BoP is needed as otherwise the market is flooded. in 1997 Ultima Online made a great example of how an item system has to be you had great loots that gave you an edge in highend pve and pvp but de to its use you are going to lose that edge at some point if you did not get its substitution in time. that takes a lot of preasure from the development side to the player as the player is not in demand of new pve content every three weeks because the current content does not provide any new shiney nor anthing to keep up his current lvl of power as he is not facing any decay.Edited by Tankqull on February 23, 2015 12:52PMspelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »i have 62 gold key runs and 1 shoulder drop....you keep telling yourself the rng in this game is awesome. cause it isnt
Agreed, that's why it should go BoE so you could use the gold you farmed from those Gold keys to buy shoulders from someone else who has duplicates or doesn't need them.
I tried to help 2 times to help 2 guys out to get their helmets, every boss kill 3 of our group got helmets... never the guy who needed it. I got one for every one of my toons in various enchantments and styles and they never got theirs, eventually people started leaving and they still don't have them.
BoP is a terrible idea do away with it.
And if there was a Need/Greed system, those 3 group members could roll "Greed" while the one needing it rolled "Need". Problem solved.
If you make gear BoE, that simply means the person wouldn't run the dungeon at all, he'd simply buy it off from someone. Quickly, the time it takes to find a group for these dungeons multiplies by 10, until every person in Tamriel has the "rare" Undaunted helmet at which point finding a group for this content becomes an impossiblity (especially for things like Sanctum Ophidia & AA/Hel Ra, which require 12 people).
Welcome to the future in your imaginary world.
People run this content for rewards, to separate themselves from the rest of the masses.
Sure, some run it for fun, but I'd argue that more than 80% (crude estimate) run it for the rewards (which is fine). It'd be interesting to see a poll on this actually.
More incentives for running difficult content is what this game needs, not removing the existing ones.
If you truly wanted this gear, you'd go through the effort to get it, instead of feeling entitled to it.
Also, I guess you weren't around last summer.
Trials gear actually did become BoE for a week or so due to a bug, and within one week every person you saw was wearing the gear. It was reverted back after a public outcry, but the damage was already done, just in one week.
Note: this was during the time not every guild was capable of clearing AA/Hel Ra (let alone pug it).Edited by DDuke on February 23, 2015 1:13PM1 -
Biiiiiii✭✭✭kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »For those of you who don't know Bind on Pickup or (BoP) is a method MMORPG games use to restrict gear and other items by making them unable to be traded or sold after you pick them up.
In the past it has been used as a band-aide "fix" to items the developers didn't want people passing to others so instead of incentivizing them not to, they simply forced them to not be able to trade or sell the item.
This becomes more poignant when considering the Undaunted Pledges for example when dealing with the 2 pc sets.
The pluses to this mechanic are:
1) Stops developers from letting an item be traded or sold.
The minuses to this are:
1) Deters people who would be motivated to do content in order to "farm" items to sell, gift or trade to friends, family or others.
2) Discourages players who try to get the item over and over and over and over again for their own use while the other members in the group get lots and lots of the item that they will either vend or deconstruct, including ones that this player would use.
3) Takes valuable items from the economy. Currently there are VERY few high value items as the most valuable items are things that are simply rare and not really practical.
4) Discourages re-playability of content. I have several helms of the kind I want so I have no reason to repeat content, this leaves those who want to do the content to get the exact one they want with a smaller pool of players to go with them.
There are more reasons why BoP is detrimental to the health of an MMORPG when overused (or used at all imo) as it is
Keep in mind I am not referring to Bind on Equip which makes sense considering the game mechanics and is practically unavoidable. BoP however is simply poor design.
Some proposed solutions are:
A ) Make all BoP item's BoE (yes including pets why force us to keep or delete pets we don't want?) At the same time greatly reduce the drop rate of said BoP items.
B ) Make BoP gear from dungeons trade-able for a time, this is my least favourite because it really doesn't handle the Gold key shoulder rewards.
C ) Need before Greed system. The group you are with rolls for desirable loot, still doesn't handle shoulder BoP rewards which should be made BoE.
I believe if you implement solution A you will see a much happier economy and healthier game with more replayability of content.
I totally agree1