Why BoP is a terrible idea.

Soulshine · February 2015

kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

It is the perennial complaint of MMOs and not new. The problem is the way in which the RNG systems upon which BoP drops are based work. Change the system used to reward the drops and one could potentially remove this problem - but no game to date has come up with a viable replacement for RNG afik. What players should be demanding is the removal of that type of rewards system, not the premise of BoP itself since it serves a good purpose and is also part of what makes play rewarding for many players.

So the best alternative is to remove all BoP (which is a horrible mechanic to begin with serving no purpose) this will allow players to trade items they don't want for items they do want.

Well that is one opinion certainly. I don't agree. BoP gear/weapons are rewarding for many people for a variety of reasons. What gets annoying is the system used to reward them, not the fact that you earn something unique from the activity you engage. There are many ways to reward drops that don't have to be based on RNG. Some games reward coins or tokens, some based on clearing levels of difficulty, some based on your heal or dmg contribution to the fight; you can take the tokens and choose the piece you want to have not the piece the game gives you which you may not even need or want. Just one example but there are plenty others.

Lykurgis · February 2015

On 1 of my V14s it took 67 gargoyle boss kills to get 1 Bloodspawn helm (with $h**y traits i might add) while 34 helms dropped for OTHER members of my parties during those runs.
(Yes, i literally have notepad and keep track of drops)

Instead, why not make BOP loot (set items in particular) tradable with any member of your party at the time it dropped for a limited time.

This way, the healer you paid 1000 gold to come heal farming runs who gets his 14th helm can simply trade you the helm that will invariably drop for him 2 runs in, then you can all leave and go back to picking flowers in Coldharbour sooner.

DDuke · February 2015

Lykurgis wrote: »

On 1 of my V14s it took 67 gargoyle boss kills to get 1 Bloodspawn helm (with $h**y traits i might add) while 34 helms dropped for OTHER members of my parties during those runs.
(Yes, i literally have notepad and keep track of drops)

Instead, why not make BOP loot (set items in particular) tradable with any member of your party at the time it dropped for a limited time.

This way, the healer you paid 1000 gold to come heal farming runs who gets his 14th helm can simply trade you the helm that will invariably drop for him 2 runs in, then you can all leave and go back to picking flowers in Coldharbour sooner.

Or, you know, implement a Need/Greed system and this wouldn't happen.

I'm also in the situation, where I've run Grotto 62 times for the helm. It hasn't dropped once for me, but atleast one group mate always gets it & ends up deconstructing it later... It is just frustrating & wrong on so many levels.

SanderBuraas · February 2015

I agree. Bind on pick-up is silly. There are for example many Undaunted items I don't want or need, but that others might have attempted to obtain for a really long time - so I should be able to sell it to this person so it does not go to waste.

Soulshine · February 2015

Lykurgis wrote: »

On 1 of my V14s it took 67 gargoyle boss kills to get 1 Bloodspawn helm (with $h**y traits i might add) while 34 helms dropped for OTHER members of my parties during those runs.
(Yes, i literally have notepad and keep track of drops)

Instead, why not make BOP loot (set items in particular) tradable with any member of your party at the time it dropped for a limited time.

This way, the healer you paid 1000 gold to come heal farming runs who gets his 14th helm can simply trade you the helm that will invariably drop for him 2 runs in, then you can all leave and go back to picking flowers in Coldharbour sooner.

wait... you paid a healer to come heal?? Wow.. I must be missing out on those calls, lol

darthbelanb14_ESO · February 2015

What they need is a system where you earn a type of currency to enable you to buy the equipment you want, similar to Rift or Star Trek Online. That way you're guaranteed to get the item you need. BoP is necessary to get people in the seats to earn whatever it is they want, and not allow those who earn gold at an elevated rate to just buy the equipment.

wraith808 · February 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

I would rather have nothing to do because I had completed all content and acquired all items than have nothing to do because the last 10% of the content and all the best items had been arbitrarily walled off.

Of course... that's just you. For the game as a whole, it's better to have group content at the end and progression based on it for the long term health of the game. And I don't speak as an elitist- I rarely get to end game just because I'm too casual. And I'm ok with the ones who are not casual, and who get the sense of accomplishment that comes with putting in the time and effort to get there.

We live in a society where trying is supposed to be good enough to get you to the storied heights of accomplishment. And it creates a sense of entitlement to get the same things as those who are more willing to put in the time, more willing to train and put in the effort, and just plain better than us.

It's not right in sports, work, or even gaming. More accomplishment should equal more reward. And conversely, less accomplishment should equal less reward.

Lykurgis · February 2015

wraith808 wrote: »

Of course... that's just you. For the game as a whole, it's better to have group content at the end and progression based on it for the long term health of the game. And I don't speak as an elitist- I rarely get to end game just because I'm too casual. And I'm ok with the ones who are not casual, and who get the sense of accomplishment that comes with putting in the time and effort to get there.

We live in a society where trying is supposed to be good enough to get you to the storied heights of accomplishment. And it creates a sense of entitlement to get the same things as those who are more willing to put in the time, more willing to train and put in the effort, and just plain better than us.

It's not right in sports, work, or even gaming. More accomplishment should equal more reward. And conversely, less accomplishment should equal less reward.

IMO you want long term health? Fix the damn bugs in game.

I think most end-game focused people would agree with me: gear grinding doesn't really add any feeling of accomplishment.

More like relief when it's finally over.

I didn't feel more "accomplished" after those 67 runs and finally getting a helm, i felt annoyed that it took that long when it didn't have to. Especially when I hear people getting it the first time then never running spindle again. Just plain ole annoyed that the people in my group who had it drop that didn't want/need it couldn't trade it to me like any other sensible game would allow.

Emma_Overload · February 2015

wraith808 wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

I would rather have nothing to do because I had completed all content and acquired all items than have nothing to do because the last 10% of the content and all the best items had been arbitrarily walled off.

We live in a society where trying is supposed to be good enough to get you to the storied heights of accomplishment. And it creates a sense of entitlement to get the same things as those who are more willing to put in the time, more willing to train and put in the effort, and just plain better than us.

That's great, except that argument has nothing to do with me. I've been playing this game 6 hours a day since early June and participated in the Beta way before that. I've seen group guildies whine about having to re-spec whenever there's a new update/nerf/whatever every few weeks... I re-spec every couple days because I'm constantly theory-crafting and trying new builds. I have to grind for gold constantly to pay for that!

You have no idea how heavily this game is rigged against solo-oriented players, even "hardcore" solo players like myself, if you think what we do is easy. No one wants to group with Sorcerers anyway, so here I am, having just solo'd a group dungeon (Volenfell) with my VR14 Sorc. As you can see, the mobs were scaled to VR12:

You think this is easy? Without a tank? Without a healer?

I repeat: BOP has nothing, NOTHING to do with rewarding talent, skill or hard work. It's all about reserving perks for "the right people"... it makes me want to puke!

ashlee17 · February 2015

100% agree with the OP on option A.
Crafted gear is already BOE and the world hasn't ended. Let drops be BOE as well.

Give end game raiders a chance to make some money and the less elite of us a better chance to compete with "better" gear.

End Game Raiders can still have exclusive tittle, times and colors to chase after.

deepseamk20b14_ESO · February 2015

it would be nice if they ever so slightly raised the drop rate and introduced a need/greed system similar to Tera.

ashlee17 · February 2015

I major problems with need/greed systems is that it is trust based. Unless you run exclusively with people you trust the honest players will always be at a disadvantage.

We don't need a second currency for dungon drops, the game already has a currency, it's called gold.

BoE lets me trade my crafting talents for gold.
Why not let raiders trade their talents for gold as well.

Raiders have acess to the results of my crafting skills (time and effort), why shouldn't drops be BOE and allow us acess to the results of their skills (time and effort)?

DDuke · February 2015

ashlee17 wrote: »

I major problems with need/greed systems is that it is trust based. Unless you run exclusively with people you trust the honest players will always be at a disadvantage.

Which is why I think Need/Greed system should only be implemented for the most difficult content out there, content that you wouldn't consider doing with a PUG.

ashlee17 wrote: »

We don't need a second currency for dungon drops, the game already has a currency, it's called gold.

Ah, gold... the problem with gold is, that you can earn it without doing the dungeon/trial. In fact, you can "earn" gold without even playing the game by visiting a gold selling website.
If you haven't done the difficult content, then you don't deserve the rewards either.

ashlee17 wrote: »

BoE lets me trade my crafting talents for gold.
Why not let raiders trade their talents for gold as well.

Raiders have acess to the results of my crafting skills, why shouldn't drops be BOE and allow us acess to theirs?

Because crafted goods & gear that requires significant amount of effort & talent to obtain are two entirely separate beings.

If I wanted a crafted set right now, I could get it in 5 minutes.
Zero skill & almost zero time & effort required.

If I wanted a set from Sanctum Ophidia, it'd take me months to obtain one.
If it was BoE, this'd become 5 minutes just like the crafted set, and it'd mark the end of my time in this game, since I just reached the end of character progression.
Not that I'd even want one, based on how they nerfed them in PTS.

So, you can see why this wouldn't be a good idea even from business perspective for ZOS.
MMOs aren't designed to "end", they are designed to keep you engaged & progressing.

Tankqull · February 2015

darthbelanb14_ESO wrote: »

What they need is a system where you earn a type of currency to enable you to buy the equipment you want, similar to Rift or Star Trek Online. That way you're guaranteed to get the item you need. BoP is necessary to get people in the seats to earn whatever it is they want, and not allow those who earn gold at an elevated rate to just buy the equipment.

the coins are already implemented they are called "gold" just get rid of BOP and you can hoard as much coins as you want to purchase your item.

its rather funny that every BoP advocate is suggesting a system to circumvent it...

Soulshine · February 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

darthbelanb14_ESO wrote: »

What they need is a system where you earn a type of currency to enable you to buy the equipment you want, similar to Rift or Star Trek Online. That way you're guaranteed to get the item you need. BoP is necessary to get people in the seats to earn whatever it is they want, and not allow those who earn gold at an elevated rate to just buy the equipment.

the coins are already implemented they are called "gold" just get rid of BOP and you can hoard as much coins as you want to purchase your item.

its rather funny that every BoP advocate is suggesting a system to circumvent it...

Nope. I quite like BoP as a concept, just do not like drops to be beased on soley an RNG rewards system when other games have proved there are many more practical and fair ways to reward drops. They are two different things not one in the same.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · February 2015

I hate how much farming is required, but on the other hand its really nice that everyone can't instantly jump on fotm gear if its bop. It gives people who earned it an edge for a while. But if you aren't going to go use that edge in PvP why would you even care if other people have it or not?
I'm not sure where I stand. Farming sucks but so does a flooded market where everyone has the same builds and sets.

Tankqull · February 2015

Soulshine wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

darthbelanb14_ESO wrote: »

What they need is a system where you earn a type of currency to enable you to buy the equipment you want, similar to Rift or Star Trek Online. That way you're guaranteed to get the item you need. BoP is necessary to get people in the seats to earn whatever it is they want, and not allow those who earn gold at an elevated rate to just buy the equipment.

the coins are already implemented they are called "gold" just get rid of BOP and you can hoard as much coins as you want to purchase your item.

its rather funny that every BoP advocate is suggesting a system to circumvent it...

Nope. I quite like BoP as a concept, just do not like drops to be beased on soley an RNG rewards system when other games have proved there are many more practical and fair ways to reward drops. They are two different things not one in the same.

i actually hate it as it nothing but a time sinking carrot on a stick to entertain shortminded who are so indoctrinated by WoW and its descendants to not realize that.
bops sole purpuse is to waste time for the "content" delvelopers to create dungen 546 with the same routines you faced 545 times before.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

I hate how much farming is required, but on the other hand its really nice that everyone can't instantly jump on fotm gear if its bop. It gives people who earned it an edge for a while. But if you aren't going to go use that edge in PvP why would you even care if other people have it or not?
I'm not sure where I stand. Farming sucks but so does a flooded market where everyone has the same builds and sets.

every one will have the same sets anyway - the only thing that changes is the time you have to spend on sth you may not like to be forced to do...

wraith808 · February 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

You think this is easy? Without a tank? Without a healer?

I repeat: BOP has nothing, NOTHING to do with rewarding talent, skill or hard work. It's all about reserving perks for "the right people"... it makes me want to puke!

We've done content above our level without the applicable parts (including with no healer, less people, etc) also. Yes, that takes skill. But you're MISSING the other part of it. Coordination of the relevant parts. So when we go down, we don't whine about it. If we want to keep going, we feel a sense of accomplishment when it is done- if we can even do it. Otherwise- it's the game that's built. It's not a single player game. So some content... will not be able to be done single player. Simple as that.

If you want a game geared towards single player experience at the highest level- play a single-player game.

wraith808 · February 2015

Lykurgis wrote: »

I didn't feel more "accomplished" after those 67 runs and finally getting a helm, i felt annoyed that it took that long when it didn't have to. Especially when I hear people getting it the first time then never running spindle again. Just plain ole annoyed that the people in my group who had it drop that didn't want/need it couldn't trade it to me like any other sensible game would allow.

No one's arguing that the RNG is bad or doesn't need to be fixed. So you're arguing a different point, I think than the thread is about. BoP and RNG are two separate conversations.

Tankqull · February 2015

wraith808 wrote: »

Lykurgis wrote: »

I didn't feel more "accomplished" after those 67 runs and finally getting a helm, i felt annoyed that it took that long when it didn't have to. Especially when I hear people getting it the first time then never running spindle again. Just plain ole annoyed that the people in my group who had it drop that didn't want/need it couldn't trade it to me like any other sensible game would allow.

No one's arguing that the RNG is bad or doesn't need to be fixed. So you're arguing a different point, I think than the thread is about. BoP and RNG are two separate conversations.

the issue is bop is garbage allways has and will be. it doesent matter if you are ravaged by the RNG or the fact that you have to do the same stupid thing for 30 times to get the amount of tokens needed.

seanvwolf · February 2015

Ahdora wrote: »

only on loot of a certain quality (i.e. only purple items). That way if *the* helm drops,

I LOLed this cause you can simply improve it at a station, making the quality condition inane... jewelry, maybe unless they implement a goldsmithing station down the road... but definitely not apparel. I'm perfectly satisfied with the BOP for such few limited items... it does what it's supposed to do. Give a sense of accomplishment, something to work for and encourages you to replay content to get just the right version of that gear that you want... (like not wanting sturdy trait).

wraith808 · February 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Lykurgis wrote: »

I didn't feel more "accomplished" after those 67 runs and finally getting a helm, i felt annoyed that it took that long when it didn't have to. Especially when I hear people getting it the first time then never running spindle again. Just plain ole annoyed that the people in my group who had it drop that didn't want/need it couldn't trade it to me like any other sensible game would allow.

No one's arguing that the RNG is bad or doesn't need to be fixed. So you're arguing a different point, I think than the thread is about. BoP and RNG are two separate conversations.

the issue is bop is garbage allways has and will be. it doesent matter if you are ravaged by the RNG or the fact that you have to do the same stupid thing for 30 times to get the amount of tokens needed.

Ok, then, if you are taking this stance... can we agree that there is a purpose to BOP, even if you don't agree with it? And there are reasons behind it?

What would be your solution to those reasons if BOP is so bad?

Soulshine · February 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

i actually hate it as it nothing but a time sinking carrot on a stick to entertain shortminded who are so indoctrinated by WoW and its descendants to not realize that.
bops sole purpuse is to waste time for the "content" delvelopers to create dungen 546 with the same routines you faced 545 times before.

I have never played WoW in my life. Whatever games you consider to be "descendants" of it I have no clue, though it seems if you are going to go that tired route you may as well throw THIS game into the mix as well since that label gets slapped on every MMO ever made since WoW; doesn't mean it's an accurate one.

I also don't need to be "indoctrinated" into anything. I simply know what I enjoy and what I don't, same as you. Many people playing MMOs actually like BoP rewards for lots of reasons, though I get you discount that entirely since you "hate" it and view it as "garbage."

Unlike you however, I am not resorting to calling you or anyone else here who doesn't agree with my view own on this "shortminded."

xSkullfox · February 2015

B2T

Look at Diablo, where you can trade the drops 4h with party members only after that time the item is account bounded. That fixes all the problems.

ThisOnePosts · February 2015

While I agree that gear should not be BOP, pets on the other-hand should be imo.

The only way Pets should not be BOP is if they implement a system where they become rare, lootable items (ie TSW has this for certain events and it allows players to trade for ones that they each need for collections).

kelly.medleyb14_ESO · February 2015

Lykurgis wrote: »

On 1 of my V14s it took 67 gargoyle boss kills to get 1 Bloodspawn helm (with $h**y traits i might add) while 34 helms dropped for OTHER members of my parties during those runs.
(Yes, i literally have notepad and keep track of drops)

Instead, why not make BOP loot (set items in particular) tradable with any member of your party at the time it dropped for a limited time.

This way, the healer you paid 1000 gold to come heal farming runs who gets his 14th helm can simply trade you the helm that will invariably drop for him 2 runs in, then you can all leave and go back to picking flowers in Coldharbour sooner.

^ This.

The most simple, fair and sensical solution is to make all items BoE. It solves all problems.

wraith808 · February 2015

kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »

Lykurgis wrote: »

On 1 of my V14s it took 67 gargoyle boss kills to get 1 Bloodspawn helm (with $h**y traits i might add) while 34 helms dropped for OTHER members of my parties during those runs.
(Yes, i literally have notepad and keep track of drops)

Instead, why not make BOP loot (set items in particular) tradable with any member of your party at the time it dropped for a limited time.

This way, the healer you paid 1000 gold to come heal farming runs who gets his 14th helm can simply trade you the helm that will invariably drop for him 2 runs in, then you can all leave and go back to picking flowers in Coldharbour sooner.

^ This.

The most simple, fair and sensical solution is to make all items BoE. It solves all problems.

It creates just as many as it solves. So no, BoE for everything isn't a magic bullet. There are problems, but I don't personally think that removing BoP is going to solve them creatively.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · February 2015

i must disagree if you spend the time farming or doing dungeons you want to stand out from the crowd. if bop could be sold if would make your achievement in getting rare gear pointless

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

Majic · February 2015

Need/greed and other forms of loot haggling are excellent ways to reduce the number of people who participate in groups.

Are too many people currently grouping in ESO?

kelly.medleyb14_ESO · February 2015

wraith808 wrote: »

kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »

Lykurgis wrote: »

On 1 of my V14s it took 67 gargoyle boss kills to get 1 Bloodspawn helm (with $h**y traits i might add) while 34 helms dropped for OTHER members of my parties during those runs.
(Yes, i literally have notepad and keep track of drops)

Instead, why not make BOP loot (set items in particular) tradable with any member of your party at the time it dropped for a limited time.

This way, the healer you paid 1000 gold to come heal farming runs who gets his 14th helm can simply trade you the helm that will invariably drop for him 2 runs in, then you can all leave and go back to picking flowers in Coldharbour sooner.

^ This.

The most simple, fair and sensical solution is to make all items BoE. It solves all problems.

It creates just as many as it solves. So no, BoE for everything isn't a magic bullet. There are problems, but I don't personally think that removing BoP is going to solve them creatively.

False. It doesn't create any problems, the only "problem" it creates is it takes away envy factor from weak minded individuals.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

i must disagree if you spend the time farming or doing dungeons you want to stand out from the crowd. if bop could be sold if would make your achievement in getting rare gear pointless

Again, false assumption. I want to do more dungeons but as it is I see no point. I have all the helmets I will ever need and the few times I have tried to help others, they either get no helmets while I get more or they get the wrong ones blah blah blah.

[Moderator Note: edited quote to match the moderated version]