Is ZOS backing away from eliminating Veteran Ranks?

Soulshine · February 2015

The issue with this three part plan is that it is not fully considering the implications of two things: namely the need for continued powering up of the mobs within the game world to balance ever increasing power in the player base over time through progress in the Champion System, and sufficient content delivery to allow for said progression.

They have already noted in their own recent updates to 1.6 on PTS that the game on PTS was obviously not balanced for anyone to be playing with 3600 points. Everything would be totally silly easy, and it was. Clearly, in order to avoid this happening in live, as time wears on there will have to be a constant dedication of dev time and resources to the upkeep of balancing in the game world itself, let alone balancing of classes and their skills, gear, weapons, enchants, food, potions, etc.

The Veteran System in of itself provides an easier framework with which they can do this since Champion Points do not begin to accrue until level 50 anyway, as opposed to re-tooling the enitre game world from 50 onward to account for a flat level 50 cap and players within it who are at say 500CPs while others are at 25CPs. It's all a numbers game, which unfortunately they set in motion and did not think through to the end of the sum.

No matter what they originally stated about this plan, which was incidentally four phases not three, I do not see it happening given what they are already acknowledging as problematic in PTS feedback.

As is, adding the CS points to Veteran ranks makes the entire reason to for these ranks far more logical, since the two systems can easily support and extend into each other seamlessly and add some depth to the game.

Now the real catch to all this will absolutely be their ability to deliver content which will enable players to continue progression in these systems. Giving capped players extremly poor XP for repeatbles in PvE or PvP, nerfing mob xp, and limiting content updates to once a year, is not going to go over too well for the long term of the game.

Maverick827 · February 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

This is why they should just convert V1-V14 to lvl 50-63 and reduce the XP required so it's normal XP and not VR XP. You would be lvl 63 (level capped) at roughly the same amount of time it takes to get to V2-V3 currently. All of the gear would stay the same, all the crafting components would be the same. The only thing they would have to change is the text on the gear from "requires VR14" to "requires lvl 63".

If they were to do it that way and make Silver/Gold optional, the entire conversion would be easy peasy. People would be able to reach the level cap in a reasonable amount of time after completing the main story and all the gear would still work.

All of the quests and objectives would still be desirable at lvl 63 because of Champion Points.

I agree with this. If they are for some reason having difficulty figuring out how to fix itemization with regards to removing Veteran ranks, then they should just make them regular levels. It takes no time at all to get a regular level. I'd even hope that they'd round off the max level to 65 or something like that.

All they need to do at that point is make sure that any new levels they add are accompanied by new content that offers enough XP to make it to the new max level. You know, like every other MMO ever.

Curragraigue · February 2015

They answered this question on the last ESO Live. From memory they said that VRs would be in the game for console launch but the plan was still to remove them at some stage.

Tonnopesce · February 2015

GreyBrow wrote: »

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

Veteran ranks as it is now are imo the best way to implement seasonal gear.

When the first Dlc will be released they can just add vr 15-16 with new items that drops only at that level so eventually a vr 14 who have played a lot will be in any case strongher that one who have gone straight to vr 16 due to the champions points passive but he will not be able to gain the vr 16 equip and in any case with the teorical + 30% xp boost (rings eso plus and potion) the vr 14 player will be able to cach up the ranks in 1-2 days without grinding too much.

I'm not sayng that the vr ranks have to stay ( actually i can think at least at other tree ways to implement the seasonal gear ) but since we all know that zos is a little bit lazy i do belive that they will remain in game till the servers shout down.....

Very incoherent and grammatically incorrect. No one can understand a word of what you said. I would LOL you, but.....

Tank you i'm italian... btw the fact that you are pointing to the grammar will make me give you a lol but.....

Jaxsun · February 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

This is why they should just convert V1-V14 to lvl 50-63 and reduce the XP required so it's normal XP and not VR XP. You would be lvl 63 (level capped) at roughly the same amount of time it takes to get to V2-V3 currently. All of the gear would stay the same, all the crafting components would be the same. The only thing they would have to change is the text on the gear from "requires VR14" to "requires lvl 63".

If they were to do it that way and make Silver/Gold optional, the entire conversion would be easy peasy. People would be able to reach the level cap in a reasonable amount of time after completing the main story and all the gear would still work.

All of the quests and objectives would still be desirable at lvl 63 because of Champion Points.

This is exactly as it should be done. +1 for being smart.

nimander99 · February 2015

Really good discussion everyone! I personally love level and gear grind/progression... i mean, why else do we play games with levels? But there has to be a way to continue earning said exp, as others have already stated.

I know im not offering anything new to the discussion. I am just hoping devs read this and see that most of us do in fact like leveling a getting new gear and i hope they do not remove VR or at the most just convert it to levels.

hopefully we get more VR's/lvls with upcoming content... grind on!

Shadesofkin · February 2015

It's always been the method that VR has been shoved on us that bugged me. I hated the original grind that caused me nothing but headaches. I continue to hope we'll see 50-XX instead of VR1-VRXX in the future. However, if they were to keep it I'd complain less if they continued to make 1,000,000xp the benchmark and provided enough content to help reach each tier.

DanielMaxwell · February 2015

If ZOS where to reverse the decision about removing the VR system they would also have to reverse the decision to award existing VR players with champion system points . That would lead to the biggest crap storm on these forums ever .

Nazon_Katts · February 2015

Am I the only one who thought seasonal gear to be of fixed level? It's either going to be vr14 or level 50 gear. But it'll be BoP and gated by content. Latest season gear is available in the latest group content, former season gear needed to successfully play, which will be available in former group content, while all seasons before that will become available all through the game and possibly in the store.

At least to me, it seems as if gear progression will work independently from levels and won't be a steep ladder, but a slowly raising platform. Wether there'll be VR or normal levels won't really matter, hence the opportunity to get rid off of VR and replace all of it with CP and staged access to seasonal gear.

Personally, I think they should just wrap all bonuses from VR14 into the reward for defeating ol Bals, so we actually have something left from our fleeting visit to godhood and a really, really rewarding end of the main story line. Allow access to season1 gear in Cadwells silver and pre VR dungeon pledges (when played at 50), season 2 in gold and Vet dungeons and Craglorn and season 3 in the latest trials and arenas.

Whenever new content is released, there shouldn't necessarily be added more seasons, but older ones become more easily obtainable.

To make the transition, character level (and content completion) wouldn't be directly transformed, but rather awarded with the appropriate set of seasonal gear.

Audigy · February 2015

Iselin wrote: »

In a podcast a few days ago Paul Sage confirmed that Veteran Ranks will not be removed before the console launch. So they'll be around yet for the next 4-6 months.

He cited complexities related to itemization as the reason why it won't get done.

But it did make me wonder.... are they now "soft" on the idea of removing them at all?

And I also wonder if the console launch version will also start off with VR or if they will get a different version than the PC that does not include VR.

If it launches with it, I think that would be a good indication that they're rethinking its removal.

Of course, it'd also be relatively easy to change its name and just make level cap 63.

What do you guys think?

The thing with VRs seems to be that ZO is afraid that long time players might be disappointed to see their old items and stats become less special. That said, these item resets happen in every MMO several times a year so ZO shouldn't be afraid of that.

Some people will cry, but the experienced folks will just accept that a new life cycle has begun.

The big question however will be, what will come after VR? What new system will allow its players to gain new levels? Will ZO just add a new 5-10 levels every year with a new DLC? Are they going to scale all content to the players, making levels and char progression totally meaningless, except for items and CPs?

There is a lot we players don't know yet.

I always liked VRs in Beta, ZO just made many mistakes with Craglorn - too many if you ask me.

Darkintellect · February 2015

Soulshine wrote: »

The Veteran System in of itself provides an easier framework with which they can do this since Champion Points do not begin to accrue until level 50 anyway, as opposed to re-tooling the enitre game world from 50 onward to account for a flat level 50 cap and players within it who are at say 500CPs while others are at 25CPs. It's all a numbers game, which unfortunately they set in motion and did not think through to the end of the sum.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about creating challenge and the idea of increasing levels to do so. By increasing levels you then use that level basis to attune a character to content. This is a common issue with the last 20+ MMO's I have played since the mid 90's.

The best course of action is to keep levels as they are and introduce content through a secondary system comprised of work+time. You won't have to create content that's much more difficult and scaling of difficulty can be in much smaller increments.

All levels do is give feedback as to the challenge of a mob and bu allowing the player to level accordingly, you can create content that's too challenging which then becomes trivial after fully leveled and developed.

After the restructuring (of which they have already started on) into a .80 ratio making everything scale down to 1-50, they can add more difficult content but refrain from adding levels. This prevents that content from being grossly inflated and can more easily be adjusted when it's from a stationary point (The players power level).

Giving the player more abilities but keep him in the same level and placement of power allows a much better form of advancement and challenge that's properly balanced.

Seraphyel · February 2015

Who the hell cares about VR in years?

It should have been removed 1 month after release because it was and still is HORRIBLE. When they take away VR by the end of 2015, only players that often make alts have use of it.

Rev Rielle · February 2015

Metrobius wrote: »

I wont beleive anything a ZOS emloyee says until i see it in game. They routinely publish bold faced lies because they have absolutley no respect of heie customers.
But more on topic:
if the console launch has veteran ranks in game then i cant see them ever going away. Console players arent used to the kind of huge changes that happen in MMOs and i dont think the reaction would be good.

I'm very sorry to say that I agree with you. It's really sad when you loose faith in what is officially said, but that's hole ESO has dug for themselves over the last year.

So many times we've heard that Veteran Ranks are going away, but the reality is we've seen absolutely no proof. If anything there is already circumstantial evidence that suggests otherwise (e.g. console being released with Veteran Ranks).

They tell us over and over again veteran ranks are going away, but unfortunately past experience have shown we just can't believe any official stance until there's some evidence, any evidence, to back up their words.

That being said, I do sincerely hope Veteran Ranks will be removed. Whilst it won't change a lot mechanically to the game, it will make the current game at least feel a lot more open and less linear I think, and that in itself will be a great thing.

Minack · February 2015

The longer ZOS drags out the removal of VR, the less incentive they'll have to finally do it. They'll argue that spending time on VR removal takes away from DLC and content creation that could bring value to the game. It's B.S but ZOS is arrogant and cares less about their customers enough to actually try and float that excuse.

The system must have been the brainchild of one of the higher-ups. Probably the same person that gave the go ahead to nerf grind spots, dungeon xp, and Cyrodiil. I guess they really wanted to show off their exciting quests and writing skills (lol) because you're forced to spend a month to do it three times in a row. I'm sure console players will enjoy that.

Don't worry Matt Firor, Smedley still hasn't been fired at Sony Onl...I mean Daybreak games. Your job is probably safe too.

zeuseason · February 2015

VR levels in this game was, in part, a deathbed. The sooner they remove them the better. They were a horrible idea in the first place and I'll bet swaths of players quit because of them.

I_killed_Vivec · February 2015

dharbert wrote: »

Veteran ranks are going to be around for quite some time, maybe forever. Removing veteran ranks would be a monumental task, requiring a re-design of the entire game. Almost everything is based on veteran ranks. They would have to change the requirements, stats and bonuses for every piece of armor, every weapon, all jewelry, all foods, all drinks, all potions. All mobs and dungeons would have to be re-adjusted as well. It's not as simple as just removing veteran ranks.

I think ZOS like VR because it is a very convenient way of managing all of the above - and it's endlessly expandable, as we've already seen going from VR12 to VR14. Not only that but they are also taking it further in 1.6 with the introduction of VR10 foods...

ZOS have said that the re-balancing of the game required by the introduction of CP was something they did not want to go through again anytime soon. The removal of VR would be even worse. it will no tbe happening anytime soon.

And please let's all get real - it definitely will NOT happen for the console release - that is going to be the same as 1.6/TU on the PC.

As an aside, I see a lot of people mentioning "seasonal gear" as a way to introduce better gear in a non-VR world. How is that supposed to apply to crafting? How does enchanting work with seasonal gear? And what happens to food and potions?

c0rp · February 2015

VR was probably the worst design decision in this game and they know it. Its a leading reason as to why this game is going b2p. SO MANY people quit this game when they got to lvl 50 and experienced "Veteran" content. Same thing will happen with all the new people coming to the game too. ZoS is on the clock as far as getting these removed from game.

IF they want this game to succeed long term they will find a way to remove them. IF this is their last ditch effort to make cash and don't care long term about the status of the game, they wont remove them. That is how I see it anyway.

vovus69 · February 2015

IMO, VR will never be eliminated. It is a hell of a job and update will be even more massive than update 6. You need to get rid of 2/3 of all gaming dynamics, get rid of half of the materials, rename and redo 3/4 of all sets, etc. So forget about that for 1-2 years.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2015

I hope so. The removal of Veteran Ranks makes a lot of our efforts seem utterly pointless considering the way champion points are being converted. I've been through that rodeo before on STO, when they converted my Marks into Dilithium and it wasn't pretty. It doesn't feel good getting a consolation prize for long and difficult efforts. I really don't have many opinions on the topic though, because I can't get on PTS to really get my hands on this new system either.

ghengis_dhan · February 2015

nimander99 wrote: »

I personally love level and gear grind/progression... i mean, why else do we play games with levels? But there has to be a way to continue earning said exp, as others have already stated.

Not me. I play for the content, not the level or acquisition of new gear. I much prefer to get the best gear early in the game, so I can focus on the story, combat, and exploration. Having to keep acquiring new gear is very frustrating to me.

AssaultLemming · February 2015

I never really minded the vr ranks but I wish they would halve the xp requirements for them. Seems excessive to have to do every single quest in the game as well as grind some to get to max level.

Iselin · February 2015

AssaultLemming wrote: »

I never really minded the vr ranks but I wish they would halve the xp requirements for them. Seems excessive to have to do every single quest in the game as well as grind some to get to max level.

They slow the game down to a 10th of the previous 1-50 leveling speed for what is essentially just levels 50-63...even worse if you want to level in Cyrodiil.

Maybe now that it's not all about the sub -- so delaying our progress is not as important as it used to be -- they'll get rid of the ridiculous requirement to do a whole alliance to get 5 levels when the one you used to level to begin with got you 50 levels.

Champion points or no champion points, if they don't think console players will be up in arms about that come July, they're dreaming.

Ethona · February 2015

As others have said; turn VR into normal levels with normal leveling xp to gain the levels. Let folks become level 64 (yes let's add one more level to round it off lol) by the time they finish with Silver. Cad's Gold would still be in place for those that want to quest grind out XP for CP. Make leveling in Cyrodil a reality for those wanting to PvE and PvP to the level cap in that zone. Boost the xp gain through instance 4 man dungeons to give folks a reason to que up and run back to back dungeons! It would work well and far better than the current setup. Honestly I find my self asking who makes the dumb choices to not follow suit with this easy task. How hard can it be!?!?

Hunterdan · February 2015

They're backing away from announcing what they intend to do, because they're not ready to do it yet.

I'm a genius, I know. Mail me your dollars. I accept checks.

DanielMaxwell · February 2015

for everyone saying they should adjust the xp grind to make it faster , they will do that by adding a potion to the crown store that gives you the same xp gain for an hour as having one hour worth of "enlightenment"

remember anything that will make money will be sold in the crown store .

Seraphyel · February 2015

Hunterdan wrote: »

They're backing away from announcing what they intend to do, because they're not ready to do it yet.

I'm a genius, I know. Mail me your dollars. I accept checks.

I think they never ever wanted to remove them - you know why? Because they love VR. They said prior to the launch how amazing and cool and great and enticing their Veteran Rank experience is. They loved it and I am sure they love it now, although it's one of the worst things ever developed for an MMORPG.